General Discussion
  >> Other Broadband Technologies


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Tue 29-Mar-16 15:33:56
Print Post

Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[link to this post]
 
Hi,

Here in a small village in Hampshire, our only option of getting anything over 5-6Mps is to fund our own solution. We've received two quotes from BT to perform this work, but due to the costs, adding a single cabinet at the beginning of the lane is the only viable option. Even then, it'll cost each of us around £1500 per household to get 25Mbps.

We've struck a rather sore point with the local estate managers, in that they are likely to insist on an additional fee for us to put the cabinet on the shared land - something that hasn't gone down well with the community as it's seen as pure blackmail.

I would like to start investigating other alternatives than fibre, particularly wireless ones that would not have the same issues as above.

We have little to no 3G/4G connection for mobile phones, so that isn't really an option (plus the unlimited data cost of 4G would be prohibitive at the moment).
I've looked into a microwave links but it appears line of sight is needed and we're in a slight dip which might be difficult.

What else can I be looking into?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Mar-16 16:11:03
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
People like Gigaclear, but wayleaves may be an issue once again.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User olicuk
(learned) Tue 29-Mar-16 17:43:18
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
Presume the local estate (rather than a friendly local farmer who also wants broadband) own the higher land around the village, so there's no obvious location for a repeater site 'down' to the village using a wireless solution?

Don't suppose Call Flow are interested in total one-offs, but have you tried them? They've been delivering an FTTC solution in Kent, and perhaps more relevant, near Alresford, Hants, under Govt funding looking at delivering to the final few %. May be able to do something cheaper than BT?

Presume despite your username it's not Beaulieu itself you're talking about - Boldre perhaps? - as HCC/BDUK were looking for cabinet sites there - see here - I assumed they were going ahead with upgrades for these areas, and the HCC Superfast Broadband Programme map implies this - or did they change their mind/fail to find a location?


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Tue 29-Mar-16 17:53:14
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: olicuk] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by olicuk:
Presume despite your username it's not Beaulieu itself you're talking about - Boldre perhaps?
Odd. I would expect the username to be Boldre in that case.
Standard User olicuk
(learned) Tue 29-Mar-16 22:06:26
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Tthe Hampshire Superfast Broadband map shows Beaulieu covered by the programme, hence the question... though from the New Forest page on their website and historical versions of it on the Wayback Machine, this was due to be delivered late in March 2015, and now says it will be delivered late by Apr 16. Codelook doesn't however list any cabs for Beaulieu so not really sure what the situation is.

Standard User gah789
(member) Tue 29-Mar-16 22:43:37
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
How many properties is the £1,500 per property for and how many people do you expect to sign up for a 25 Mbps service? There are substantial fixed costs for any local network, whether wireless or anything else. If you are only talking about 20 properties you will be lucky to get a wireless solution to work. The problem is the operating cost for backhaul - getting the traffic to the outside world.

A single mast and some repeaters should cost less than £30K but a leased line for backhaul plus transit is likely to cost you up to £40 per month (including VAT) for that alone - and that will involve a 3 year commitment. The whole thing would be much more viable if you are dealing with 50 users. The increase in capital cost would be small by comparison with spreading the operating cost over a larger number of connections.

The alternative to a leased line is a set of bonded FTTC business lines. Relying on 2-3 of them would bring the monthly cost down to a manageable level for a small wireless system. That will work if you can get access to 80/20 FTTC somewhere with a line of sight to your main wireless mast.

A final word of warning. Despite what you may hear, lots of people are perfectly happy with 5-6 Mbps for now and won't pay significantly more for 20+ Mbps. The main market for wireless systems consists of communities and/or users who get less than 2 Mbps. Even if there are 50 properties, you may struggle to get 20 to commit to the service in advance.
Standard User Fastman2
(committed) Wed 30-Mar-16 09:20:34
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
Curious who you represent In the road in question ?
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Thu 31-Mar-16 08:36:10
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: olicuk] [link to this post]
 
It's for a part of Beaulieu that isn't being connected to the fibre that is currently being rolled out. The fibre will go passed the end of the lane where we could pick it up from, but they are not updating our cabinets and have no plans to.
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Thu 31-Mar-16 08:36:54
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
I represent all the residents on the lane, about 39 houses in total.
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Thu 31-Mar-16 08:50:03
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the heads up on CallFlow. I had a read of their site and it looks like they would be ideal, but for the fact they're minimum number of houses is around 100 to make it financially viable, and we're around 25. I'll give them a call though.
Standard User Theguru2010
(newbie) Fri 01-Apr-16 16:46:18
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
Afternoon,

One thing that you may wish to consider is not actually using a mast to deliver the service, if you was to install a leased line to one of the premises then you could look to distribute the connection from that property with a wireless device attached to the highest point of the property.

If all the properties are within a mile you should be able to add a wirelss receive to each property and share the connection that way.

We have done this previously in areas that are not in the rollout plans for superfast broadband & worked out quite cost effect for each household / business.

Thanks
Jamie

*** Origin Broadband ***
Offering services from wholesale, leased lines, ISDN, EFM VOIP & many more.
We operate one of the largest LLU networks in the UK - Discounts offered for forum members!
Standard User kitcat
(committed) Fri 01-Apr-16 20:02:01
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
Beaulieu

Sounds like Dock Lane, if so there are a lot of trees that may block line of sight for radio for a number of the houses.

The verge opposite the Bus (?) shelter looks like the only place to put a cab that is not in the private lane, there is actually a street light there as well which would cut down the power costs.

But speed would still not be good for those at the end of the lane as it is 1.76Km lomg according to google.

Really needs FTTP to serve that sort of Road as you would need 2 Cabs to give a decent speed to the two ends of the Lane.
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Sun 03-Apr-16 10:56:20
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Theguru2010] [link to this post]
 
It looks likes we may have reached an agreement with the Estate to place a cabinet at the beginning of the lane, so assuming everyone still has an appetite to self fund, we should be good to go for at least a 4x boost from what we all receive today for about £1k each.

We did look at a second cabinet as an option, but this would have added too much additional cost for now, and would also require half the lane to be dug up for additional ducting.

As an interim solution for the far end of the lane most people will now get around 25Mbps, which is 'OK', but if there are alternatives to getting a wireless signal say from the new cabinet, to the end of the lane that would be ideal. The obvious solution is to dig up the road and lay FTTP, but self funding that isn't an option.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sun 03-Apr-16 10:58:19
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
2 lines bonded to double the speed?
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Sun 03-Apr-16 11:04:27
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Theguru2010] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Theguru2010:
Afternoon,

One thing that you may wish to consider is not actually using a mast to deliver the service, if you was to install a leased line to one of the premises then you could look to distribute the connection from that property with a wireless device attached to the highest point of the property.

If all the properties are within a mile you should be able to add a wirelss receive to each property and share the connection that way.

We have done this previously in areas that are not in the rollout plans for superfast broadband & worked out quite cost effect for each household / business.

Thanks
Jamie


What technology is that, and where would we get further information?
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Sun 03-Apr-16 11:54:48
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
2 lines bonded to double the speed?


Some of us have that today, but my understanding is that it's not truly bonded and will use either path, not both? At least with the Asus router I have today.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sun 03-Apr-16 11:58:23
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
I think you're talking about load-balancing. Line bonding as supplied by AAISP for example, uses both lines to double the speed.
Standard User Beaulieu
(newbie) Sun 03-Apr-16 13:33:53
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
I think you're talking about load-balancing. Line bonding as supplied by AAISP for example, uses both lines to double the speed.


Yes my router only does load balancing it seems. Are there routers that do proper bonding then?
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sun 03-Apr-16 13:38:03
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
Yes, you need 2 devices - one at the ISP and one at your end. AAISP use Firebricks, but cheaper options are available from them.
https://support.aa.net.uk/Category:Bonding
Standard User Theguru2010
(newbie) Mon 04-Apr-16 08:25:39
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Beaulieu] [link to this post]
 
Morning,

A survey would be needed to identify the correct equipment that would be needed as it depends on the distance the signal needs to travel.

If you wanted to look at the options further then let me know but its what alot of business parks do to share the connection, it would be the same equipment that is used on a mast in effect but with how close the properties are I cant see that a mast would be needed.

A mast is usually used when the signal needs to be sent across a good distance.

Thanks
Jamie

*** Origin Broadband ***
Offering services from wholesale, leased lines, ISDN, EFM VOIP & many more.
We operate one of the largest LLU networks in the UK - Discounts offered for forum members!
Standard User gah789
(member) Mon 04-Apr-16 12:10:56
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Theguru2010] [link to this post]
 
Putting aside semantics what this comes down to is two choices.

A. Put up the £1,000 per property for OR to install a cabinet at the end of the road. You will get FTTC speeds varying from 25 to 80 Mbps depending on distance from the cabinet at an annual cost of £400-500 for phone line, broadband, etc and with a choice of ISP.

B. Put in a 100 Mbps leased line to the property with the best all-round view. Install a wireless repeater on that property (the term "mast" is standard in the wireless business) plus receivers on each house - use 5 GHz AC equipment. A single contract to buy & install the wireless equipment for the repeater and 25 properties should not cost more than £8,000 incl VAT. The leased line will probably involve some installation costs but probably less than £4,000 incl VAT. After that you will have to pay the annual lease fee - market dependent but £7,500 per year incl VAT is a rough guess for a 3 year contract - i.e. £300 per year per property. With this set up everyone could replace their phone line with a VoIP line at £30 per year. For 25 users with a 100 Mbps line you will get a much better user experience with symmetric speeds most of the time. The most recent generation of Ubiquiti or Mimosa equipment will give you 50+ Mbps speeds over wireless without any difficulty at the costs that I have quoted. On the other hand, you will experience peak period congestion if everyone tries to get HD streams at the same time.

Overall, Option B has about half the installation cost of Option A and perhaps 2/3rds of the annual cost. On the other hand, you don't get a choice of ISP and you have to take more responsibility for installing and managing the system. It is a familiar choice between money, convenience and performance.

Edited by gah789 (Mon 04-Apr-16 12:14:32)

Standard User Theguru2010
(newbie) Mon 04-Apr-16 12:17:20
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: gah789] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gah789:
Putting aside semantics what this comes down to is two choices.

A. Put up the £1,000 per property for OR to install a cabinet at the end of the road. You will get FTTC speeds varying from 25 to 80 Mbps depending on distance from the cabinet at an annual cost of £400-500 for phone line, broadband, etc and with a choice of ISP.

B. Put in a 100 Mbps leased line to the property with the best all-round view. Install a wireless repeater on that property (the term "mast" is standard in the wireless business) plus receivers on each house - use 5 GHz AC equipment. A single contract to buy & install the wireless equipment for the repeater and 25 properties should not cost more than £8,000 incl VAT. The leased line will probably involve some installation costs but probably less than £4,000 incl VAT. After that you will have to pay the annual lease fee - market dependent but £7,500 per year incl VAT is a rough guess for a 3 year contract - i.e. £300 per year per property. With this set up everyone could replace their phone line with a VoIP line at £30 per year. For 25 users with a 100 Mbps line you will get a much better user experience with symmetric speeds most of the time. The most recent generation of Ubiquiti or Mimosa equipment will give you 50+ Mbps speeds over wireless without any difficulty at the costs that I have quoted. On the other hand, you will experience peak period congestion if everyone tries to get HD streams at the same time.

Overall, Option B has about half the setup of cost of Option A and perhaps 2/3rds of the annual cost. On the other hand, you don't get a choice of ISP and you have to take more responsibility for installing and managing the system. It is a familiar choice between money, convenience and performance.


Pretty much sums it up ! however there are still some leased lines available with a free installation & I think you would need to consider a 1GB connection which is then shared as if you had a 100 Mbps each user would only get 4 Mbps (based on 25 users) - if you went for the 1GB option each user would get 40Mbps - if you have a rough postcode I can give some estimated figures

*** Origin Broadband ***
Offering services from wholesale, leased lines, ISDN, EFM VOIP & many more.
We operate one of the largest LLU networks in the UK - Discounts offered for forum members!
Standard User gah789
(member) Mon 04-Apr-16 13:13:26
Print Post

Re: Alternative options for a Hampshire village


[re: Theguru2010] [link to this post]
 
Yes & no. The lease on a 1 Gbps line is only a few hundred pounds more per year than for a 100 Mpbs line but the transit charges would be much higher. A compromise would be a 1 Gbps bearer with, say, 200 Mbps committed capacity. That would be all up for negotiation.

However, an average 4 Mbps symmetric per user capacity is very generous for this kind of system. Most of us operate with less than 1 Mbps per user. The real problem is that if you go much above 100-200 Mbps you have to buy much more expensive core switches/routers. In addition, the wireless equipment really isn't capable of handling significantly more than 80 Mbps. The manufacturers will claim otherwise but this requires large amounts of clean spectrum which is rarely if ever available in the UK and certainly won't be in Hampshire.

My view is that you should keep the initial costs down but with an option to upgrade at a later date if the usage warrants it and users are willing to pay.
Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to