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Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 19-Dec-13 22:05:39
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FTTC DLM and profiles


[link to this post]
 
I escaped the tyranny of BTw ADSL speed profiles many moons ago; first by moving to LLU then later to VM cable.

Today I've moved to FTTC. I'm presuming there will still be constant DLM in place increasing the target noise margin if necessary to maintain stability and probably with a similar long recovery period if conditions improve. BUT does FTTC have the same annoying download speed banding and long penalty period after recovery from a poor sync event which I remember from the 8Mbps ADSLMax BTw product or does download speed now instantly follow sync (apart from overheads) in the way LLU ADSL products do?
Standard User Oldjim
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 19-Dec-13 22:11:10
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
21CN and fibre have instantaneous changes to the IP profile
- it is a pity the Plusnet system takes rather longer
Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 19-Dec-13 22:23:06
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the info.


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Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Thu 19-Dec-13 22:51:38
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oldjim:
<snip>
- it is a pity the Plusnet system takes rather longer

I've forgotten the reason for it still being there? confused

Alastair

plusnet
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 19-Dec-13 23:22:10
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: Apprentice] [link to this post]
 
I've a feeling it may be an integral part of the prioritisation system, as that needs to know the line capacity to decide what to do in real-time. That's a pure guess by me.

As the BT IP Profile is 0.9679 x sync (which absorbs most of the overheads), and the Plusnet copy takes that and AIUI rounds to the 100kbps below, there isn't much loss. The problem is the occasions on which it fails to update.

FTTC in general doesn't seem to me to have many modem disconnections, compared with ADSLx. So again, it's less of an issue.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 59.4/14.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 19-Dec-13 23:22:40)

Standard User timh
(newbie) Thu 19-Dec-13 23:43:04
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
So does this mean my download profile is stuck (been like this the last 10 days or so), as it has not increased to match the actual sync speed (even though the upload profile has)?

Max: Upstream rate = 5791 Kbps, Downstream rate = 28628 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 5754 Kbps, Downstream rate = 24725 Kbps
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 20-Dec-13 02:18:03
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: timh] [link to this post]
 
Those figures are nothing to do with the IP Profile.

The BT (near-master) version can be found by running the BT Performance Test (ignoring the silly red instructions for this purpose), and continuing to the Further diagnostics at the bottom of the results page.

The Plusnet "near-copy" is to be found in your Member Centre >> Connection settings >> High speed broadband. It is the Current line speed. You are probably looking at BT = 23.9 and Plusnet at 23.8.

Note that your BT upstream IP Profile will be 10 if on 40/10 and 20 on 80/20, quite independent of your sync speed. Plusnet do not hold a copy of that.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 59.4/14.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 20-Dec-13 02:20:19)

Standard User timh
(newbie) Fri 20-Dec-13 09:24:46
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
So what exactly is 'Max' connection speed, I thought this was your actual sync speed and the profiles would be set at the profile closest to this ?
Standard User kasg
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 20-Dec-13 10:21:07
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: timh] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by timh:
So what exactly is 'Max' connection speed, I thought this was your actual sync speed and the profiles would be set at the profile closest to this ?

No, "Path" is the actual sync speed, "Max" is a theoretical maximum and can be ignored for most purposes.

Kevin

plusnet Unlimited Fibre - BQM
Using OpenDNS
Domains and web hosting with TSOHOST
Standard User adslmax
(knowledge is power) Fri 20-Dec-13 12:22:51
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oldjim:
21CN and fibre have instantaneous changes to the IP profile
- it is a pity the Plusnet system takes rather longer


Yep, it does. My IP Profile on plusnet side haven't been updated to match BT end for 14 days and I give up waiting and did try twices rebooting router but it doesn't work and I posted on plusnet community forum and the staff had manual adjusted plusnet profile no problem at all.

I don't know if my plusnet ip profile working or not. Sometimes it quicker to match BT end, sometimes it take longer to match BT end, the worse one is 14 days waiting from 15.8Mb to 16.2Mb.

plusnetADSL2+16 Meg

Edited by adslmax (Fri 20-Dec-13 12:25:00)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 20-Dec-13 13:16:41
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: timh] [link to this post]
 
As kasg says. Plus.

You clearly have an unlocked modem. (Unless you are using 3rd-party kit).

With an unlocked modem you need to run xdslcmd info --pbParams. I think "Max" will be what would be possible after the Discovery phase. The sync is what results from the Medley phase, where certain tones have been dropped for whatever reason.

The "Max" will vary second by second following the sync, because of noise conditions changing, in the same way as noise margin does.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 59.4/14.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 20-Dec-13 13:18:55)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 20-Dec-13 13:48:09
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: timh] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by timh:
So what exactly is 'Max' connection speed, I thought this was your actual sync speed and the profiles would be set at the profile closest to this ?
I hope kasg and myself have dealt with the Max figure.

IP Profile is a BT Wholesale thing, nothing whatsoever to do with the line stats. It is derived directly from the sync and on FTTC is 0.9769 of the sync. Note that LLU providers, as on ADSLx, do not have IP Profiles. But on FTTC they (used to) have the same Openreach modem.

BT Wholesale limits the delivery speed from its network to the DSLAM to the IP Profile value.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 59.4/14.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User timh
(newbie) Fri 20-Dec-13 15:25:22
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by timh:
So what exactly is 'Max' connection speed, I thought this was your actual sync speed and the profiles would be set at the profile closest to this ?
I hope kasg and myself have dealt with the Max figure.

IP Profile is a BT Wholesale thing, nothing whatsoever to do with the line stats. It is derived directly from the sync and on FTTC is 0.9769 of the sync. Note that LLU providers, as on ADSLx, do not have IP Profiles. But on FTTC they (used to) have the same Openreach modem.

BT Wholesale limits the delivery speed from its network to the DSLAM to the IP Profile value.


Yes - thanks for your replies, its a little clearer now. Obviously the question would now be is there anything I can do from my end to get my downstream sync back closer to the 'max' figure (upstream is already very close)? My line although around 1km, seems reasonably quiet (looking at the SNR/Errors etc).
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(experienced) Fri 20-Dec-13 22:23:17
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kasg:
In reply to a post by timh:
So what exactly is 'Max' connection speed, I thought this was your actual sync speed and the profiles would be set at the profile closest to this ?

No, "Path" is the actual sync speed, "Max" is a theoretical maximum and can be ignored for most purposes.


Also, once the modem's firmware has been remotely updated, "Path:" changes to "Bearer":-

Max: Upstream rate = 4946 Kbps, Downstream rate = 22496 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 4928 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20488 Kbps
Standard User lexden16
(member) Sat 21-Dec-13 09:07:16
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Re: FTTC DLM and profiles


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
FWIW, I have a 3rd party modem/router will full access to stats. In the 18 months that I have had FTTC my max attainable downstream has fallen from 102 to 92Mbps (crosstalk as take up has increased). My modem is about 300 M from the cabinet and my connection normally runs on a FastPath. From time-to-time, some external disturbance will cause the DLM to do its thing. This is the case at the moment. Currently, the DLM has imposed a latency figure of 8 ms and Impulse Noise Protection of 3 on the downstream side of my connection. The overall result is a reduction in downstream speed of about 8Mbps. As my Max Attainable speed is above 80Mbps then my IP profile remains unchanged. The GUI is showing no errors ES, MES or CRCs since this change therefore I expect that the DLM will turn off interleaving at some point in the future. Past experience is that this will take about 3 weeks.

Of interest (maybe), the latest firmware upgrade to the Fritz!Box serious of boxes has removed all FEC counts (presumably as they have concluded that they are in themselves pretty meaningless) and brought in G.Vectoring Ready. Not bad for a 3 year old box (in my case) with 2 years of the warranty to run.
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