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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 24-Jun-15 18:48:12
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Support hour changes?


[link to this post]
 
A message has winged its way to the inbox

We are always striving to improve our award winning customer service, and as a result we have been looking at our customer support opening hours. After extensively analysing the times at which our customers call, and how long they have to wait, we are revamping the call centre opening hours. This will allow us to have the majority of our staff working when customer demand is at its peak. From 13th July 2015 our UK customer support lines will be open from 7.30am to 10pm every day. Our business customer support is open 24/7.

Believe this is a change from 24/7 phone support hours, and the presumption from the wording is that by not doing a full overnight shift they can put more people on the lines in peak times.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Jun-15 19:00:33
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
They'll be getting rid of the freephone number next tongue

Fortunately I've only had to contact CS about five times in the twenty months or so since moving over from Madasafish.

plusnet user
Standard User StephenTodd
(experienced) Wed 24-Jun-15 19:02:47
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Interesting spin on saying they can save money by not providing 24/7 support.

24/7 support is pretty important to some. This should count as a significant detrimental change to their contract and thus mean people can leave/transfer without penalty.
(I don't think I would even if it meant I could, but could be a way out for some.)

--
Recently moved from BT Infinity 2 to PlusNet. Very happy so far.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 24-Jun-15 19:07:27
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
That is why I've already updating listings with new times since for some the night time support was useful if that was when they mostly used the line.

So for some it might count as a detrimental change, but they might be fussy and look at the times you've contacted support to back up your claim - i.e. this is not a clear cut one.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 24-Jun-15 19:19:17
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Would it be an idea to pin this for a while Andrew? Perhaps until the 13th?

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User TLM
(legend) Wed 24-Jun-15 21:21:47
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Ha!

I recently posted having mistakenly understood that support hours were being/had been reduced. It turns out I'd accidentally looked at the hours for the cancellation desk instead.

But my mistake turns out to have been prophetic, because no sooner had I apologised and retracted, than it turns out (more by luck than judgement) I was onto something after all...

T.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 24-Jun-15 21:37:35
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I've just submitted a complaints ticket with the following

I've been made aware of a change to the 24/7 support coming into affect from 13th July 2015.

I feel this is a significant change to my terms of contract and would like to give my 30 days notice on my service.


nearly 40 hour lead time so, see what happens I suppose!

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User greenwich
(member) Wed 24-Jun-15 21:39:45
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
That's a very generous reading of the press release, MrSaffron. If Plusnet were going to put more people on the daytime shift it would have been simple and impressive to say so. They did not say that.

Unfortunately it is standard public relations practice these days that no matter what you do, always announce it as an improvement to customer service. Just the other week I had an email from my mobile phone company (Talkmobile) saying "we want to deal with you on your terms". The next sentence explained that this meant that they would no longer provide customer service at Carphone Warehouse shops, only via the website.
Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 24-Jun-15 22:01:29
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: greenwich] [link to this post]
 
Along with screwing folks upload to save themselves 7 or 8 quid per month per customer, it seems they are on their uppers.

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Wed 24-Jun-15 22:12:12
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
and the slide down continues for this isp.

So basically one cannot call at night to avoid queues now.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Wed 24-Jun-15 22:13:47
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
there is nothing vague about it, it is a detrimental change, of course plusnet would argue against it if someone used it to get out of contract penalty free.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Thu 25-Jun-15 00:07:37
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
That is why I've already updating listings with new times since for some the night time support was useful if that was when they mostly used the line.


Night time support is handy for line testing issues. One can't exactly test a line during peak hours, so now one will have to test at night, then phone next day, then test the next night and so on. In the past I would line test with someone on the phone.

One more reason...

Edited by camieabz (Thu 25-Jun-15 00:08:34)

Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Thu 25-Jun-15 07:32:58
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
What are you expecting from your complaint?
Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Thu 25-Jun-15 07:44:59
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
OFCOM will never view this as a 'material detriment' to Plusnet users under General Condition 9.6, as Plusnet are not modifying the contractual conditions.

There was a clarification of GC 9.6 when mobile phone operators began applying price hikes 'in line with inflation'.
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Thu 25-Jun-15 09:06:37
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
I see Plusnet's legal expert is on the case!
Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Thu 25-Jun-15 09:22:51
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
-- removed

Edited by AndyHCZ (Thu 25-Jun-15 11:45:01)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 25-Jun-15 09:46:08
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
If you don't agree with an opinion say so, do NOT attack the person.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Thu 25-Jun-15 11:02:35
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
That was NOT an attack Andrew, it might have been a tongue in cheek comment, but as it so happens he's probably right. I certainly did not say I disagreed with it. Thanks for the accusation.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 25-Jun-15 11:25:46
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
First word in my post IF

We can only judge posts based on the words used, so any implied joke that would be obvious if said face to face may not be obvious when its read online.

A warning may see OTT for such a mild thing, but there is a tendency for these things to escalate quickly.

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 25-Jun-15 11:28:12)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 25-Jun-15 11:26:29
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
If you feel someone is trolling best to not mention in public but raise the issue in private or email so that escalation can be avoided.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Jun-15 11:33:53
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Maybe there will be more CS staff personing (being PC) the phones during the new hours.

At least give them a chance.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User alext05
(committed) Thu 25-Jun-15 12:21:45
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
I am at a loss too why would anyone take that comment seriously and think it was trolling. At a complete loss, I should add. Welcome to the forums.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 25-Jun-15 12:33:49
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: alext05] [link to this post]
 
Why? Because many other tit for tat spats start off with comments like that and better to nip in the bud and let people debate the issue rather than having a go at each other.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User alext05
(committed) Thu 25-Jun-15 13:01:59
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I understand that you had to react following the accusation by AndyHCZ, but would have expected a more measured response though.

I am mostly disappointed that the accusation was levelled in the first place and in the way it was. I read it before it was deleted. Totally unwarranted, in my opinion.
Standard User Oliver341
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Jun-15 13:11:15
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: alext05] [link to this post]
 
As MrS said, those kind of "jibes" can escalate quickly into spats which we have seen quite a lot of recently, so prudence is probably required here.

Oliver.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Jun-15 13:42:25
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
What are you expecting from your complaint?


Probably something similar to what one making a complaint would expect really! :smile

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User flippery
(experienced) Thu 25-Jun-15 13:42:34
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
If out of hours support is vital, would it be possible to change to Business Broadband. To be honest I have never seen the need to call outside of 9am - 5pm times, not that desperate or reliant.
Standard User azrael316
(regular) Thu 25-Jun-15 15:20:58
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I can see why it is being done.

The 6:30 shift was a favorite of mine, probably 2-3 calls in that first hour, a nice start to the day.

At the other end, after about 10:30 it used to drop right off, and after 11:30 totally dead.

The "Nightshift" comprised of 3 to 4 people.. wink
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 25-Jun-15 15:48:44
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: azrael316] [link to this post]
 
How long ago though? They've picked up a quarter of a million customers since I joined in February 2012.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User azrael316
(regular) Thu 25-Jun-15 16:43:09
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
January this year..

I joined them in 2012, so there for all the major changes recently.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Jun-15 17:30:57
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: azrael316] [link to this post]
 
considering a lot of the capacity issues spread around this and other forums started to become more of a problem in February - March then I would say those times you said they where dead may have become busy.

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 25-Jun-15 17:43:00
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
has any plusnet customer had a letter or email informing them of this change?

as the vast majority of people wont be finding out via internet news sites.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Jun-15 17:48:45
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
No not yet but spoke to someone from Plusnet earlier, see here for chat transcript and discussion on PN Forum

According to Nic on the Plusnet Chat (Yep, Finally got through on it) Business support will be picking up our support calls after hours.

Quote
Nic: We are sorry about that, the decision was made as there was a minimal amount of contact during the hours of 10pm-7am which is why the decision has been made to change this, our business team will be moving to a 24/7 service so would be able to pick up any calls that are made outside these hours
Me: But I'm not a business customer?
Nic: They will still be able to take the overflow calls that do come through
Me: I'll await official confirmation of that but....

It's also worth noting the following from earlier in the chat,

Quote
Me: I feel this is just another change to things that I signed up to Plusnet for... so will I be getting any official confirmation of this and how does my contract stand
Nic: Yes this is something that will be changing, you will be notified of this when this is confirmed, with regards to your contract the change in hours would not effect the contracted services


WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM

Edited by mlmclaren (Thu 25-Jun-15 17:55:56)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 25-Jun-15 18:28:10
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
The final reply in that quote shows the person writing it either doesn't understand the question, or is giving an opinion that wasn't worth typing. We all know it doesn't affect the contracted services, but it may be part of the contract. I imagine that revolves around a legal nicety.

As it has always been a prominently advertised feature I think it is fair to say a decent lawyer could argue it is part of the contract.

The bit about the Business support picking up "overflow calls" sounds like rubbish.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Jun-15 18:49:05
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yes I didn't bother replying to that statement... I'm sick of wasting my time with them just thought I would see the reaction... it was a weak one!

Well according to AndyH over on the Plusnet forums

Overflow calls = additional calls during a busy period

What the support agent said was outside of the 10pm - 7am period (should be actually 7:30am), business support staff will be able to take any overflow calls on the residential side.


If you pop over you will see my response... I'm sure you can expect I wasn't happy, though I don't take his word for it and won't take much seriously until some sort of official notice comes into a box of some sort... whether that be an inbox or letterbox...

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User Oldjim
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Jun-15 19:16:37
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
and Chris has confirmed it http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1408...
to clarify that residential Plusnet calls will not be taken after 10pm from the 13th July.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Jun-15 19:55:22
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
I noticed... it's just more misleading information that Plusnet, As if the multitasking and early termination fee's lies weren't enough already theres more and I doubt this will be the last either.

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 25-Jun-15 20:03:20
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
Yep. Chris was quite specific. We'll just have to wait and see if we get the pleasure of individual notification. We should, but it's not looking as if we will.

They obviously don't think it presents a "significant detrimental change", as we aren't getting the required 30 days notice.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Jun-15 22:02:14
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Have you had a read of this from Ofcom, link is to a guidance pdf download needs to be copied and pasted into browser:-

stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/gc9/statement/guidance.pdf


Obviously price rises are not relevant but notification of contract modifications may be, what do you think?

plusnet user
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Thu 25-Jun-15 23:45:03
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
Chris only confirmed what has been "announced" in certain quarters. He did in fact really contradict himself because you left out the start of his sentence....

Tony is getting answers to most of the questions in this thread,


This Question was asked ...
Business Support is there 24/7 now, and as Plusnet's "case" for this reduction in hours for Residential customers is no doubt that so few people call, why can't the Business Support handle any Residential customers but in a lower priority queue?


so he can't really say what the answer will be until Tony reports back.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 00:24:19
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Apprentice] [link to this post]
 
I don't think that guidance can be taken to cover anything other than what it says, I'm afraid.

A study of what I think their shorthand means is General Condition 9 Section 6 (GC9.6) is what we need to do. Not tonight ....

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 05:02:50
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
OFCOM will never view this as a 'material detriment' to Plusnet users under General Condition 9.6, as Plusnet are not modifying the contractual conditions.

I think this is likely the correct interpretation.


The terms of a contract are what an reasonable third party believes the parties agreed to prior to the formation of the contract (Smith v Hughes (1871) LR 6 QB 597).

Most of what the parties agreed to will be the explicit terms of the contract. I've looked through Plusnet's residential terms and conditions, and can see nothing relating to telephone support hours.


There are a limited number of scenarios where terms can be implied into a contract.

The most common implied terms scenario is when terms are implied by statute, such as the well known Sale of Goods Act 1979 implied terms (which apply to contracts for the sale of goods only) and the similar but somewhat less well known Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 implied terms (which apply to contracts for the supply of services with or without the sale of goods in the same contract).

In a limited range of scenarios, terms can be implied by the courts.

When there are repeated contracts between the parties, it is possible for terms consistently appearing in post-contractual documentation to become implied into later contracts (as in Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] 1 WLR 461). This scenario does not appear to have any relevance here, as consumers will typically have no more than one new contract every 12 months with Plusnet. Moreover, unless there is something I am unaware of as a non Plusnet customer, no post-contractual promise by Plusnet to provide telephone support at certain hours for the duration of the contract is included in the documentation you receive after entering into a contract - there is merely notification of the current opening hours on the Plusnet web site and, presumably, if you phone for support out of hours.

Other scenarios where terms have been implied by the courts include terms to clarify the presumed shared intention of the parties, though in the leading case I'm thinking of (Attorney General for Belize v Belize Telecom Ltd [2009] UKPC 10) the Privy Council made it clear that implied terms cannot improve upon the contractual agreement between the parties.


I cannot therefore see any justification within general contract law to imply terms relating to support hours into Plusnet's contract. The statement on Plusnet's web site that residential support hours are currently 24/7 doesn't amount to any sort of promise by Plusnet to continue providing 24/7 support, let alone a promise to anyone entering into a new contract by Plusnet that would therefore form an explicit contractual term on support hours.



In contracts for the provision of certain regulated telecommunications services, Ofcom imposes a requirement to embody some general conditions under the Telecommunications Act 2003. These General Conditions include General Condition 9 imposing certain minimum requirements for the terms of telecommunications contracts.

GC 9.2(f) requires contracts to include terms detailing:
the types of maintenance services and customer support services offered, as well as the means of contacting these services

though this does not appear to extend to a requirement to specify the opening hours of any support services provided under the contract. Obviously, any explicit contractual term specifying support hours is likely to bind the provider to provision of support services for the specified hours at a minimum.

I believe that Plusnet's specification of 'helpdesk services' (without further definition) in the first clause of the various product specific terms meets GC 9.2(f).


As has been noted, GC 9.6 imposes a requirement to give one month notification of changes to contractual terms amounting to material detriment, and for subscribers to be given the right to contractual termination without penalty if they do not accept the detrimental change.

In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
There was a clarification of GC 9.6 when mobile phone operators began applying price hikes 'in line with inflation'.

Indeed, Ofcom issued guidance about when a price increase would represent a material detriment. That guidance is unhelpful here, as it relates solely to price changes.

It is difficult to see how GC 9.6 is engaged by a change in support hours, considering that there is nothing in the contractual terms specifying when Plusnet's helpdesk is open.


If Plusnet were to reduce the telephone helpdesk hours so severely that it could be argued that there was not a meaningful telephone helpdesk service any more, there is an argument that Plusnet would breach the contractual requirement to provide helpdesk services. However, I find it difficult to see that the purported change goes as far as to amount to removal of helpdesk services. The new opening hours are still much longer than many residential helpdesks.


Relatively few contractual terms are conditions, which give a right to repudiate and terminate the contract on breach. The well known Sale of Goods Act 1979 terms about fitness for purpose, reasonable quality and conformation with description are notable exceptions, as they are specified as conditions in the Act which is why they are so powerful.

In most cases, terms are silent as to whether they are conditions (right to repudiation on breach) or warranties (never giving rise to the right of repudiation). In some cases it is still possible to classify the term as a condition or warranty, though unspecified terms are usually innominate terms. Breach of an innominate term requires the innocent party to be deprived of "substantially the whole benefit" of the contract (Hong Kong Fir Shipping v Kawasaki Kisen Kaisha [1962] 2 QB 26) before the right of repudation on breach exists. As the main subject material of the Plusnet contract is telecommunications services, it is doubtful that any restriction in helpdesk hours would deprive the customer of "substantially the whole benefit" of the contract, at least in any general sense.

There may be situations where a service failure together with the restricted availability of the helpdesk amounts to deprivation of "substantially the whole benefit" of the contract, giving the consumer the right of termination - though in this scenario the right of termination would follow almost entirely from the unresolved failure of services, not the limited helpdesk hours. It is possible for the right to renunciation to exist following an anticipated breach of contract, but such an anticipated breach must be clear and absolute to give rise to the right to renounce. The right to renounce based on unresolved service failure therefore seems unlikely to exist in any anticipatory scenario, as there cannot be certainty about future breakdown affecting service provision.

Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Fri 26-Jun-15 09:05:05
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Whatever the correct legal interpretation of that may be, there is still the question of "mis-selling". Plusnet are still advertising the support as 24/7.
24/7, 365 days a year award-winning help from our UK customer support centre. We're always happy to help and it's free to call from landlines and mobiles with inclusive minutes
Standard User azrael316
(regular) Fri 26-Jun-15 09:37:42
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
considering a lot of the capacity issues spread around this and other forums started to become more of a problem in February - March then I would say those times you said they where dead may have become busy.


Possibly, but I can say it was VERY busy after 8am, and before 10pm.. Rarely was there a gap between calls.

They did happen but it was the exception rather than the rule.

Too many customers, not enough staff. Thats the issue...

Oh, and a lack of capacity for the existing customers.
Standard User StephenTodd
(experienced) Fri 26-Jun-15 10:35:57
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
Relatively few contractual terms are conditions, which give a right to repudiate and terminate the contract on breach. The well known Sale of Goods Act 1979 terms about fitness for purpose, reasonable quality and conformation with description are notable exceptions, as they are specified as conditions in the Act which is why they are so powerful.

Surely, if something is described (when contract starts) as including 24/7 telephone service, then some alternative telephone service does not conform to the description?

--
Recently moved from BT Infinity 2 to PlusNet. Very happy so far.
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Fri 26-Jun-15 10:51:24
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
Agreed. Statements such as 'Unlimited Broadband' and '24/7 support' are selling points, and stating a different situation in the small print is mis-selling.

Unless Plusnet are claiming to be a predominantly business BB supplier, the 24/7 statements should be removed, as they advertise a feature which is scheduled for removal (there's no notice given regards the 24/7 removal in the advert).

http://www.camieabz.co.uk/files/support.png
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Fri 26-Jun-15 10:59:30
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
When there are repeated contracts between the parties, it is possible for terms consistently appearing in post-contractual documentation to become implied into later contracts (as in Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] 1 WLR 461). This scenario does not appear to have any relevance here, as consumers will typically have no more than one new contract every 12 months with Plusnet.


I have been on a monthly contract since May 2005. I hereby claim relevance and implied terms. smile

I wonder if there's an implicit obligation to a contract taken in good faith on the back of a major advertising point?

Would it render a contract to be null and void if a major selling point of that contract is removed?

The legal stuff aside, it does all suggest that someone at Plusnet is cutting costs, and this suggests that their margins have been pared to the bone by ultra-low offers to new customers.
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Jun-15 11:15:19
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
The Plusnet terms and Conditions include

Plusnet Broadband Family service terms

What we provide

1. The service we agree to give you comprises:

1. a high-speed network access to the internet that is delivered over a Plusnet or BT compatible telephone line;
2. helpdesk services; and
3. any other applications and features as described at www.plus.net/broadband
4. You will need to have a Plusnet or BT telephone line to enable you to receive your Plusnet Broadband service.
24/7 support is one of the major features described on all products available from the linked page.

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 12:09:43
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
Exactly, though the separation into two bullet points is where legal niceties that I think I mentioned earlier can come into play.

I haven't checked any recent adverts, but if mentioned there it definitely is relevant to the person signing up triggered as a result of the advert.

Of course, the whole question is only relevant to those within the minimum term for their product, whether by recent/new joining or retention deal.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 26-Jun-15 12:10:19)

Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 12:29:58
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
The terms of a contract are what an reasonable third party believes the parties agreed to prior to the formation of the contract (Smith v Hughes (1871) LR 6 QB 597).

Most of what the parties agreed to will be the explicit terms of the contract. I've looked through Plusnet's residential terms and conditions, and can see nothing relating to telephone support hours.

It has been pointed out to me that there is an argument (see, for example, here and here) that the 24/7 nature of the helpdesk set on the product pages is incorporated into the contract by reference.

I don't believe "The Terms and Conditions of each service are made up of this important information and the following terms (including any other document we refer to in those terms)" is capable of incorporating anything from the Plusnet web site into the contract implicitly. The reference to "any other document" is "[that] we refer to in [the following] terms" - in other words, other material is incorporated into the contract only if it is referred to explicitly.


The wording of clause 1 of the fibre broadband conditions is:
1. a high-speed fibre broadband service that is delivered over a Plusnet or BT compatible telephone line;
2. helpdesk services;
3. any other applications and features as described at www.plus.net/fibre-broadband/

The broadband wording mirrors these terms.

The effect of the word 'other' at 3. might well have the effect of excluding any reference to helpdesk services on the product web page from incorporation into the contract, as the helpdesk has already been covered at 2. Indeed, it may be that all 3. does is incorporate the web site description of the services other than the broadband service itself and the helpdesk into the contract by reference.


I think the fairest conclusion is that the true construction of the contract with regard to the definition of the helpdesk service is unclear. I believe the most likely construction is, as I explained in the previous paragraph, that the description of the helpdesk service from the web site is not incorporated into the contract by reference, though it is possible a court would take the opposite view.

As I said in my previous post, the terms of a contract are what an reasonable third party believes the parties agreed to prior to the formation of the contract (Smith v Hughes (1871) LR 6 QB 597). When the effect of the wording is doubtful, the question becomes what did both parties have in their mind at contract formation. I'm doubtful that agreement was formed on the basis that both parties agreed helpdesk services being available 24/7 is a key feature of the product, giving customers the right to repudiate the contract if the helpdesk hours were reduced.


Even if the true construction of the contract is that the helpdesk service is defined as 24/7, Plusnet's notification of the changed opening hours would exercise Plusnet's right to variation under clauses 50 to 53 of the Residential Standard Terms. The question then is whether this should be notified as a possible material detriment, with the right to penalty free termination on request if material detriment exists.

Ofcom's discussion of material detriment appears to be limited to price. I'm not aware of any case law relating to material detriment and telecommunications, though I confess I haven't searched exhaustively.

When necessary, law works by analogy. The TUPE regulations use the concept of material detriment as part of determining whether changes to an employee's contract on transfer of undertakings amount to termination of employment. In this context, the Employment Appeal Tribunal has held that material detriment is to be subjectively determined (see [49] to [54], especially [54], of Tapere v South London & Maudsley NHS Trust [2009] UKEAT 0410_08_1908).

If we take it that material detriment is to be subjectively determined, the right to termination under clause 53 could only be engaged by a customer who could show they were likely to suffer detriment from the reduction in support hours. I contend this would be very difficult to do - it is not like a price change where you can show that your usage pattern over the last 3 months would result in higher charges under the new regime.


As such, I think it would be difficult to argue you have the right to penalty free termination based on material detriment. It looks far too tenuous to me. You would have to show the true construction of clause 1 is at variance with the literal meaning of "any other applications and features", and that this should be read as "any applications and features" in order for the web site wording on helpdesk hours to be incorporated into the contract. You would then have to show that a reduction in helpdesk hours is of actual and not just hypothetical material detriment to you.

Edited by David_W (Fri 26-Jun-15 13:48:27)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 26-Jun-15 12:58:11
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
well ofcom have looked at the screencap and read through the T&C etc.

Their view is plusnet are been naughty and they suggest anyone who is been refused penalty free exit to contact them.

Also ofcom are contacting plusnet soon in regards to their obligation to contact the customers regarding the change.

Plusnet's legal check was probably about if they could get away with it, its clearly not a compliant move.

To me if you add up all the actions of plusnet in 2015, its clear there is cost cutting going on (alongside increase in prices), plusnet is been bled dry for profits as if its preperation for something. Maybe all the commercially sensitive stuff is to do with merging into BT retail or selling of the isp.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 26-Jun-15 13:00:31)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 12:58:48
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
You have there gone into probably most of the legal niceties I have been referring to David. However I think it isn't as clear-cut as you suggest, which will be why you say "though it is possible a court would take the opposite view".

The need for access to the helpdesk at all is by definition not, (we hope), an ongoing occurrence. Just like any other form of insurance. It might be interesting to look at some car and house insurance companies , (edit - and the breakdown services), and carry out the same exercise as to the availability of help and emergency lines and where this is stated.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 26-Jun-15 12:59:48)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 13:00:48
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Any links please, or did you ring them?

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 26-Jun-15 13:04:06
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I contacted a contact I have within ofcom.

Since ofcom are now actioning this there will be something happening soon whether they release something in print I dont know.

To edit, I did also ring them via the official channels so there is my individual complaint logged also.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 26-Jun-15 13:05:32)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 13:36:10
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Do you have an individual complaint? I thought you recently said you are on a monthly contract now, so it doesn't affect you in terms of ease of leaving because of not accepting the change. You just leave.

Ofcom are only interested in exit without charge from minimum term contracts.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 13:44:19
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
You have there gone into probably most of the legal niceties I have been referring to David. However I think it isn't as clear-cut as you suggest, which will be why you say "though it is possible a court would take the opposite view".

Indeed so. I'm trying to come at the situation from the point of a neutral observer and explain my understanding. I'm not a Plusnet customer so have no metaphorical axe to grind.

The courts tend to be reluctant to create a right of termination unless such a right clearly exists. It's an awkward situation where the true meaning (lawyers say "true construction") of the contract is unclear because of the word "other". There is also the issue of what represents material detriment in relation to a helpdesk that you hope to need occasionally at most.


Were this to come to court, it would be for both sides to put forward their arguments as to why their position is correct. I'm sure finer legal minds than mine will land up looking at this if the situation does not resolve somehow.

It's a good thing that Ofcom are looking at this from a regulatory standpoint. From a contractual standpoint it is the courts, not Ofcom, who are the arbiters.


My apologies if my coherence is a bit off - I've had very little sleep and my girlfriend is in hospital. We've learned this morning that she needs fairly urgent major surgery, so my mind is elsewhere.

Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 13:44:57
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Different scenario I think. They offer a service that requires a customer to call to get the service that is paid for.

The payment to an ISP is to get access to the internet.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 13:53:15
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
Which can require support contact.

I wasn't trying to compare them directly anyway. Just the way it is covered in their advertising and blurbs, compared to their T & Cs. They were just the first types of provider that came to mind, hence the edit addition smile.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User alext05
(committed) Fri 26-Jun-15 14:10:16
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Thanks so much, David, for your insight and information on potential outcomes. It is all very helpful.

Hope all goes well for your girlfriend and she will make a speedy recovery.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 26-Jun-15 14:17:22
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Anyone can register a complaint, even non customers.

I am in month 17 of my 18 months.

Also regardless if I am still in the 18 months there is the matter plusnet have not informed me of the change.

Bear in mind my view just isnt my own I have already been advised from legal professionals on this.

plusnet t&c's state plusnet will provide what is on their sales page.
the sales contract also states 24/7 uk support/
Both of these mean that if the product spec changes the service contract is void unless the customer agrees to the change. 24/7 uk support is part of the product spec.

What plusnet can do is this.

They can remove 24/7 uk support from new customers only.
They can remove 24/7 uk support from existing customers providing they are informed and agree to the change of terms.

What plusnet are trying to do is cheat the system, if they only stopped it for new customers then they get the worse PR but also still having to pay night staff, obviously they want the financial gains from getting rid of the night staff.

There is also nothing stopping plusnet from keeping 24.7 "and" adding new staff for the daytime call congestion.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 26-Jun-15 14:21:56)

Standard User vimto_girl
(committed) Fri 26-Jun-15 14:17:22
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
As a neutral observer also, my view is

i) if A is a feature of X
and B is a feature of X
where B is also a feature of A.

B being a feature of A does not stop it being a feature of X other than A.

Helpdesk services are a feature of the package.
The hours of helpdesk services are a feature of the package.
The hours of helpdesk services are also a feature of helpdesk services.

Just because the hours of helpdesk services are also a feature of the helpdesk services, does not stop them being a feature of the package other than helpdesk services.

ii) Is 24/7 customer support a feature mentioned on the webpage? Yes. Is 24/7 customer support a feature mentioned in 1 and 2? No. Therefore it counts as “any other feature” mentioned in 3.

iii) I find it impossible to recognise 1 and 2 as applications, so it makes no sense to refer to “any other applications”. I am entitled to presume the true meaning intended was “any applications (and features)”.

iv) The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

7.—(1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language. (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 15:27:55
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
I was going to, but forgot, to mention to David a point you bring up there.

That is the relevance of the "what a reasonable person would expect" application of Consumer law, as opposed to B2B contract law.

You sign up for a package with a well-publicised feature, that is stated to be available to you 24/7 if you have a problem, then you can reasonably expect it to be available throughout your minimum term, and if it ceases to be so you should be able to leave without paying any early termination fees.

For all customers no longer in a minimum term they simply have to decide whether any change to anything in their package matters to them, and vote accordingly with their wallet/purse.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User Oliver341
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 26-Jun-15 16:42:26
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
This has echoes of BT Retail, whereby they are removing free BT Sport even for customers within a minimum term. It seems to be a "thing" at BT at the moment, moving the goalposts (probably to pay for Premier League goalposts).

Oliver.
Standard User StephenTodd
(experienced) Fri 26-Jun-15 17:16:26
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
Meanwhile, 24/7 remains a headline part on several of their advertising pages, despite the fact that anyone signing up now is unlikely to get even one day of such service.

--
Recently moved from BT Infinity 2 to PlusNet. Very happy so far.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 17:50:50
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
The ASA would be interested in the current situation of 24/7 still being publicised, but I'm not in the mood to let them know.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 26-Jun-15 17:51:32)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 26-Jun-15 18:06:25
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
pointless with the ASA, all they would do is after a month or two tell plusnet to not advertise it which by july 13 they wont be anyway.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 18:26:47
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
I don't know. Unlike the contractual position, there is no room for doubt that the current website is misleading and needs immediate change.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 26-Jun-15 18:41:39
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
well I guess someone could use the ASA decision as weight behind legal proceedings so you right it isnt pointless.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 20:08:44
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by vimto_girl:
As a neutral observer also, my view is

i) if A is a feature of X
and B is a feature of X
where B is also a feature of A.

B being a feature of A does not stop it being a feature of X other than A.

Helpdesk services are a feature of the package.
The hours of helpdesk services are a feature of the package.
The hours of helpdesk services are also a feature of helpdesk services.

Just because the hours of helpdesk services are also a feature of the helpdesk services, does not stop them being a feature of the package other than helpdesk services.

ii) Is 24/7 customer support a feature mentioned on the webpage? Yes. Is 24/7 customer support a feature mentioned in 1 and 2? No. Therefore it counts as “any other feature” mentioned in 3.

iii) I find it impossible to recognise 1 and 2 as applications, so it makes no sense to refer to “any other applications”. I am entitled to presume the true meaning intended was “any applications (and features)”.

That's one way of looking at it - but it might not be a legal way.

The law bases itself on what the contract says, not what the contract should say from a logical standpoint. Natural reasoning and law can diverge quite rapidly. Sir Edward Coke, delivering judgment against the then King in 1607, came out with the famous statement (Case of Prohibitions [1607] EWHC KB J23): "[cases] are not to be decided by natural reason but by the artificial reason and judgment of law, which law is an act which requires long study and experience, before that a man can attain to the cognizance of it".


You are astute to spot that 'applications' is not defined elsewhere in the contract, so the starting place is that it takes its normal English meaning. The lack of clarity over what are 'applications' is another problem with determining the true construction of clause 1, creating further doubt over exactly what of the product web page is incorporated into the contract by reference.

If the parties agree to something absurd, the starting place is that the law will uphold that absurdity. However, the weakness of a consumer dealing with a business on the business's standard terms is acknowledged in the requirement for fairness imposed by regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 (SI 1999/2083) (which is the transposition of (EU) Directive 93/13/EEC into domestic law).

In reply to a post by vimto_girl:
iv) The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

7.—(1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language. (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail

Your reminder of reg. 7(2) UTCCR 1999 is important. This regulation embodies the interpretative principle contra proferentem into legislation for consumer contracts. It's a last resort way of deciding how to resolve a 'tie' - if all else fails and the meaning remains in doubt, the scale tips against the party relying on the clause (which is taken as the company for consumer contracts).

As I said, exactly what of the web page is incorporated into the contract is unclear. It may well be that a court felt able to resolve the situation without getting as far as reg. 7(2) UTCCR 1999, but, if not, you know which way the tiebreaker will go!


By the way, much of consumer law, including the consumer rights in the Sale of Goods Act 1979, Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and UTCCR 1999, ill all be replaced by the Consumer Protection Act 2015 from some time later this year - likely 1 October. The old law will apply for problems arising before that commencement date. This is just a 'heads up' that things are changing. It should be a great help having so much important consumer law in one place.

Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 20:24:31
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Bear in mind my view just isnt my own I have already been advised from legal professionals on this.
Any legal advice is just an opinion. Until tested in court, it cannot be said to be the correct answer. I'm a legal neophyte, really, and am more than willing to accept I am wrong, but I am trying to give reasons for my conclusions.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
plusnet t&c's state plusnet will provide what is on their sales page.
I believe there is some doubt as to how much of the product web page is incorporated into the contract, as I have explained.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
the sales contract also states 24/7 uk support/
Not necessarily - if the web page statement on 24/7 support is not incorporated into the contract, it does not bind Plusnet.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Both of these mean that if the product spec changes the service contract is void unless the customer agrees to the change. 24/7 uk support is part of the product spec.
Again, not necessarily. As I have explained earlier in the thread, only a breach of condition or a breach of an innominate term depriving the innocent party of "substantially the whole benefit" of the contract gives rise to the right of repudiation as well as the right to redress (typically damages). Other breaches of contract do not give rise to the right of repudiation, just the right to redress.

If the right of repudiation exists, the innocent party must exercise that right - the contract doesn't become void simply because it is voidable.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
What plusnet can do is this.

They can remove 24/7 uk support from new customers only.
They can remove 24/7 uk support from existing customers providing they are informed and agree to the change of terms.
If the web page statement on 24/7 support is incorporated into the contract, Plusnet have a right to change the contractual rights of existing customers using the process in clauses 50-53 of their Residential Standard Terms. This right is subject to two safeguards - the obligation to allow penalty free termination if the change imposes material detriment on the customer, and the requirement for fairness imposed by regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 26-Jun-15 20:40:51
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
By the way, much of consumer law, including the consumer rights in the Sale of Goods Act 1979, Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and UTCCR 1999, ill all be replaced by the Consumer Protection Act 2015 from some time later this year - likely 1 October. The old law will apply for problems arising before that commencement date.
For problems arising before the date, or contracts entered into before that date?

(Just a POI, not a quibble).

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 26-Jun-15 20:48:54
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
whats unclear about it?

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 21:10:37
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by David_W:
By the way, much of consumer law, including the consumer rights in the Sale of Goods Act 1979, Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and UTCCR 1999, ill all be replaced by the Consumer Protection Act 2015 from some time later this year - likely 1 October. The old law will apply for problems arising before that commencement date.
For problems arising before the date, or contracts entered into before that date?

(Just a POI, not a quibble).

I meant Consumer Rights Act 2015 (I got the name of the new law wrong in my earlier post).

The transitional provisions Statutory Instrument for the bulk of the changes in the new Act is not yet available, even in draft form (or if it is, my searches have failed to dig it up). The transitional provisions will make it clear which law applies when.

Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Jun-15 21:30:10
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
whats unclear about it?
The justification for the various assertions you've made earlier in the thread are unclear.

In some cases, I believe your assertions are trivially demonstrated to be wrong. There is nothing that binds Plusnet irrevocably to providing 24/7 support to existing customers as the contract gives Plusnet the right to vary the terms of existing consumer contracts (subject to the safeguards I have already explained).


Anyone can take advice from someone with a greater or lesser degree of relevant legal experience. I would expect a legal executive working in family law (who may have studied no contract or consumer law at all) to have rather less of a clue about consumer contracts than a top QC specialising in contract law and statutory interpretation.

I'm down at the neophyte end of the scale - a final year standard law undergraduate who did well on the contract law part of his degree studies. I'm not going to get it right all the time - but I am trying to do what I am trained to do, which is explain the reasons and authority for my conclusions, also identifying those areas where the outcome is uncertain.


Legal advice and conclusions ultimately stand or fall on their reasons. I've given my reasons further up the thread. Without reasons, your conclusions are merely an appeal to (potentially mistaken) authority.

My contract law tutor is a solicitor dealing exclusively with contentious obligations matters - primarily contractual disputes. He kept reminding us that there would be no such thing as a legal dispute and no need for the courts if there was always certainty over the legal position. He also pointed out that you can go to court believing you have an extremely strong case and lose because you missed something or the judge decided to side with the other party on one key point.

Lawyers can say what they believe the correct answer is and why, but nobody can be certain what the outcome would be if the matter was put before a competent court.

Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 26-Jun-15 22:38:41
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yet they are still, on their Web-Pages, trying to attract custom by:-

Multi-award winning broadband provider
with 24/7 UK based customer service


Surely that means, now that they have sent TBB this email, that they are "knowingly" attracting customers under the basis of mis-selling the 24/7 support?

Regards,
John
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 26-Jun-15 23:43:00
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
A simple question.

What is unclear that plusnet are advertising 24/7 uk support on their products page which is linked from their t&c's?

you also forget legislation always trumps contracts when the two conflict. ofcom legislation does not allow isp's to change contracts at their own discretion without informing customers and offering them an opt-out.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 26-Jun-15 23:45:08)

Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 27-Jun-15 00:17:52
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet seem to "think" they are not changing the contract but actually improving the service!

However when "speaking" to a Plusnet employee from the COT they started to stress when I made completely clear that I was aware of the law and regulations behind operators changing service's during customer's contract periods, and when I started quoting the Terms and Conditions word for word without actually having them to hand he stressed and asked that I hold...

Unfortunately this wasn't to fetch a manager "that I did ask for" but to actually fetch a script, quoting the same statement we've all read and then continuing to repeat that I can leave Plusnet "no issues" but I will be held to the full amount of the ETF's.

I ended the call making damn sure that he was aware this wasn't over and that all regulatory bodies would be informed of such incorrect practices being carried out by Plusnet plc and that I will be in touch further with their complaints department..

My next question for the likes of Ofcom or another body representing the consumers will be "If Plusnet continue with these changes, and Plusnet keep me hanging on waiting, then would I be in the wrong to terminate any further payments" after all as the agreement I signed is no longer binding due to the change and is therefor void, my responsibilities as the other party are excused by default right?

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sat 27-Jun-15 00:48:24
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
this can go against them, if they inform customers then after 30 days the customer can be assumed to accept the changes.

However, if they dont inform anyone, the contracts are all effectively null and void and anyone can leave when they want without penalty.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 27-Jun-15 00:48:38)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 27-Jun-15 00:57:21
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
I think David has explained very well how the law as written and how we might understand it are not always how courts will interpret it. Particularly when the wording in the contract is badly constructed.

Way back, I referred a few times to legal niceties are going to arise. The first thing that made me say that was the simple word "other" that appears in the third quoted clause, immediately following the one to provide a Help Desk. That "other" is hugely significant. The position Plusnet must have at the moment is that it excludes the Helpdesk from the following reference to the website. They are very possibly correct in raw contract law in that belief.

David also picked up on its significance and has pointed it out.

I think we are all agreed that Plusnet will have to back down on this. Not on the change to the hours, but to their apparent refusal to regard it as a detrimental change to the terms.

The reason they will have to back down is that there are at heart two classes of law involved. Contract law and Consumer Protection law. Many Acts and many names, but those are suitable umbrella terms. Under contract law they might have a chance, but consumer protection law directs courts to find in favour of the consumer when there is lack of clarity or certainty under contract law. In particular what a reasonable member of the public may sensibly understand from the information presented by the seller.

The widespread presentation on the website and other publicity of the 24/7 Helpdesk is what matters, particularly as until at least late on Friday the 24/7 statements remain. The legally questionable clause referring to the website I don't think matters in the least in practical terms. It would if it went to court, but it won't.

It would cost Plusnet a huge amount whatever the result. All that's at stake for them is the early-leaving charges they hope to be able to claim from an unknown but possibly small and certainly decreasing number of customers.

Most of us here I hope fall into the classification of reasonable and sensible, at least in the real world wink. It is highly likely Ofcom will agree with us in their regulatory capacity, and Plusnet are also likely to get a kick in the backside from the ASA.

What effect this will have on their reputation remains to be seen. There is certainly damage.
Edit - Typo.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 27-Jun-15 01:00:04)

Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 27-Jun-15 02:58:57
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
What is unclear that plusnet are advertising 24/7 uk support on their products page which is linked from their t&c's?

The product web page has two functions.


Firstly, the web page is an advertisement inducing people to enter into a contract with Plusnet. In a legal sense, as is usual for an advert, the web page is likely to be what is known as an "invitation to treat" - an inducement to enter into a contract.

Secondly, the product web page is incorporated by reference into the terms of the contract. As I have already explained, there is uncertainty as to how much of the web page is incorporated.


Two key requirements for the creation of a contract are offer and acceptance. An offer must be made with the intention to be bound by its terms on acceptance by the other party. The acceptance must be unconditional.

When Plusnet display the web page to a visitor, they do not appear to be making an offer in the contractual sense. Plusnet have no idea when displaying the web page whether it is technically feasible to provide the desired service to the potential customer's premises. It is this potential impossibility of providing the advertised service that indicates the web page is an invitation to treat, not an offer.

The most likely scenario is:
  • product web page - invitation to treat
  • customer order - offer based on Plusnet's standard terms
  • Plusnet confirmation - unconditional acceptance of the customer's offer, which is the point the contract between Plusnet and the customer comes into being

There are other possibilities, but we will stick with that one, as it will not help our understanding to get bogged down with discussion of multiple invitations to treat and the circumstances in which a contractual offer can be accepted by a party's silence.


Nothing in any invitation to treat is binding unless the terms in question appear in the offer.


An item appearing on a shop shelf with a price next to it is probably the most famous modern example of an invitation to treat. The offer is made when the customer takes the item to the till and offers the amount displayed on the shelf in payment. The shop assistant can accept the customer's offer, but is not bound to do so - they can reject the offer and possibly make a counter-offer to the customer ("The price is actually £x. Do you accept?"). The customer cannot insist on purchasing the item at the displayed price, as they are not entitled to rely on the invitation to treat - it is merely an indication of the terms that might be acceptable to the shop.


A shop deliberately displaying false prices is likely to commit an offence under The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (SI 2008/1277). This regulatory requirement sits apart from the contractual position - any offences under CPUTR 2008 do not directly change the contractual position, though the facts behind the CPUTR 2008 convictions might indicate that consumer contracts formed as a result of unfair trading practices are partly or wholly defeated by the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 or the law on misrepresentation in contract.

The distinction between the contractual and regulatory position is something I will return to shortly. Meanwhile, Plusnet might want to acquaint themselves with CPUTR 2008 regulation 5, specifically regulation 5(5)(g). As an advertisement, the web page is also subject to the regulations on advertising standards, and it is an open question whether Plusnet are in compliance with these regulations bearing in mind their intention to withdraw the advertised 24/7 helpdesk support for residential customers.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
you also forget legislation always trumps contracts when the two conflict. ofcom legislation does not allow isp's to change contracts at their own discretion without informing customers and offering them an opt-out.
The starting point is that the regulatory position does not change the contractual position at all, as with my example of the shop displaying false prices. If the shop is successfully prosecuted under CPUTR 2008, this conviction will not force the shop to sell the product at the false low price. However, there are some circumstances in which the regulatory position might affect the contractual position.


If Ofcom ruled that the change to helpdesk hours is material detriment that should give consumers the right to penalty free termination under the clause required to be inserted into end-use contracts via the Communications Act 2003 and General Condition 9, this seems likely to give rise to a right of termination for the affected consumers. I'm fairly certain that this right to termination would arise under UTCCR 1999, on the basis that the term holding the customer to the minimum contract period is unfair considering that Plusnet have not fulfilled a regulatory obligation (it appears to fall within UTCCR 1999 schedule 2 paragraph 1(o) - a term is unfair when it "[obliges] the consumer to fulfil all his obligations where the seller or supplier does not perform his"). If I'm wrong that a right to terminate would arise under UTCCR 1999, it would probably arise in equity, though I'm not going to the possible equitable routes to a remedy.


If Plusnet were convicted of an offence under CPUTR 2008 in relation to advertising a 24/7 helpdesk when there is no intention to continue providing it, that might also be prima facie evidence of UTCCR 1999 unfairness affecting terms in the contracts of those signing up to Plusnet now that the change to helpdesk hours has been announced. I don't propose to explore the precise effects of UTCCR 1999 in this scenario any further.


The point I'm trying to draw out is that it is too simplistic to say statutory regulation trumps contract law. Failure to meet a regulatory obligation might provide evidence that a contractual remedy exists for some or all customers, but the contractual position must be resolved under contract law and possibly equity. You cannot assume that contracts that are affected by regulatory non-compliance automatically become voidable.

Standard User kamelion
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 27-Jun-15 03:02:00
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
So glad I decided to stay with sky instead of going to plusnet when my 12 months fibre period was up.

If it wasn't bad enough that they cut upload to ADSL2+ speeds now they are cutting back on support.

As an observer it just indicates that plusnet don't have the money to invest in infrastructure and we have all seen what happens to ISP's who don't continue to invest.

If I were a customer I would consider slashing of provision and a 33% cut in support to be a detriment to the contract I signed up for.

Sky Fibre Unlimited
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 27-Jun-15 09:04:44
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: kamelion] [link to this post]
 
Errmmm tongue.

Apart from the fact that (using an iPad) I can't find Sky's upstream speed specified at all, and Terms & Conditions on the 38Mbps product page gives a mere two lines that tell me little useful, Plusnet are not cutting anyone's upstream speed. Nor are they reducing the upstream on the replacement product to ADSL2+ speeds. Exactly double, excluding the tiny proportion of ADSL2+ users who can get a significant benefit from Annex M - at extra cost.

So whilst I accept your position, I don't accept the reasons you give.

There is no reason either why Plusnet 38/2 shouldn't sell perfectly well, just like it does on TalkTalk.

As for the support hours, which ISP do you understand ofers the best support? The general opinion seems to be AAISP. Have you looked at their support hours? wink

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Jun-15 09:30:15
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
As someone who have been with two providers over the last 4 years or so that only had Customer service at set times, it is not a problem for me.

ADSL24 only had Cs on weekdays I think and Allpay also had the same thing.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

Plusnet FTTC
Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Sat 27-Jun-15 09:36:29
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Thank you.

Your comments are very well constructed and it is good to see how you apply your legal opinion on the matter.

It would be interesting if anyone that is complaining takes this to the county court, as I doubt OFCOM will do anything as the change is not of material detriment to customers.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 27-Jun-15 09:36:51
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
24/7 ends July so no, not miss-selling.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sat 27-Jun-15 09:41:15
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
But the contracts they are selling are for 12 or 18 months and the 24/7 support will not be available for the full length of the contract so it IS clear miss-selling.

https://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain/Onl... only takes a few minutes to complete.

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 27-Jun-15 09:45:57
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
And T&Cs can be altered at any time during that period. Whether THIS specific issue is deemed to be detrimental to a paying customer is a matter for the overly paid lawyers, Ofcom (possibly) and case law and judges.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sat 27-Jun-15 09:52:51
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Support hours are not the be all and end all of the matter. It's not a lot of good having 24/7 support if when you ring in to report a fault all the operator does is log your call and raise a ticket for the faults department who then take up to three days to even raise the case with BTw/OpenReach. At least with the likes of AAISP when you do ring in at 9am you know it will be dealt with swiftly!

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 27-Jun-15 10:03:47
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
I fully agree. In effect I was saying much the same thing.

The only things wrong with Plusnet doing this is that for people signing up before 13 July they are being misled until the site is changed, and anybody on a minimum term should be able to get out.

The change itself is entirely up to Plusnet. They offer a product and we decide whether or not we want it. It's called a retail market smile.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 27-Jun-15 10:04:29)

Standard User greenwich
(member) Sat 27-Jun-15 10:25:25
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
The transitional provisions Statutory Instrument for the bulk of the changes in the new Act is not yet available, even in draft form (or if it is, my searches have failed to dig it up). The transitional provisions will make it clear which law applies when.
Are you sure about this bit? The Sale of Goods Act 1979 applies to all contracts since 1 Janurary 1894, so why should Parliament have restricted this new law just to new contracts or disputes? I had a look in the new Act and did not find any power conferred on the Secretary of State to decide which contracts the new law should apply to. That would be a hugely important issue to be left by Parliament to the discretion of a minister. Do you know of any examples where this has happened before?

P. S. I agree with you that it's unlikely that this change by Plusnet is sufficient to allow people to get out of their contracts.

P.P.S. In the time I have been writing this, my connection has dropped several times. Plusnet, your service sucks!

Edited by greenwich (Sat 27-Jun-15 10:27:37)

Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Sat 27-Jun-15 10:59:53
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: greenwich] [link to this post]
 
Are you sure about this?

How can the SoGA apply to non-goods contracts? Broadband isn't a good as it has no physical presence.
Standard User greenwich
(member) Sat 27-Jun-15 11:26:09
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
Are you sure about this?

How can the SoGA apply to non-goods contracts? Broadband isn't a good as it has no physical presence.
I didn't say the Sale of Goods Act applies to broadband. I used it as an analogy in relation to the question whether the Consumer Rights Act 2015 will apply only to new contracts. The new Act applies to both goods and services.
Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Jun-15 12:34:40
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
people signing up before 13 July they are being misled

Yep, that sums up my stance on it!

Regards,
John
Standard User vimto_girl
(committed) Sat 27-Jun-15 13:25:14
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You are right Bob, I think because it is clear enough to you that slashing 24/7 support cover would be materially detrimental to those who signed up to pay good money for that level of service and peace of mind.

At first glance, Ofcom's Guidance on General Condition 9.6 seems like it could have nothing to say on the matter as it specifically relates to price rises. However:

It is fact that Plusnet’s contracts were marketed and sold prominently on the inclusive package of services or features provided to the subscriber, especially unlimited downloads and 24 hours a day support cover, for which a core subscription price was agreed. (See Guidance A1.5)
The inclusive package of services or features may vary between different Communication Providers (“CPs”) and contracts for different products and services (A1.6)

Ofcom is likely to treat any price increase to the agreed core subscription price (however constructed and described in the contract terms) as material detriment. This “includes changes to the level of the service provided in the inclusive bundle of services or features and which effectively constitutes a (unit) price increase”. (A1.10 and footnote 5)
So, even if the core subscription price is not increased, if the hours of available support cover are reduced (slashed), this may be said to effectively constitute a (unit) price increase for available support cover and on this basis be material detriment.

If the guidance is not directly applied, any decision may draw on a similar principle. Ofcom have a document on the guidance confirming contract modifications which are not price changes are covered by General Condition 9.6 and so may be considered materially detrimental: "The guidance also does not apply to any non-price variations. Although what we say in the guidance about notifying subscribers under GC9.6 is relevant to all contract modifications."
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Sat 27-Jun-15 13:40:41
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
Also, the repeated presence of 24/7 cover over many years gives those on monthly contracts grounds to claim that that was a relevant part of the service.

Yes, they can get out early, but that's not good enough. Being able to terminate a contract is great, but a supplier being allowed to chop and change T&Cs willy nilly is bad form, as many customers will not:

a) Be aware of the impact of the changes
b) Be reading things in this place


My own reasons for considering a move away from Plusnet are three-fold:

a) QoS - Seem to be waning - if I must change to a 12-month contract, it will be with very reliable supplier.

b) Changing ToS - All the little bells and whistles seem to be getting cropped. Fax to e-mail, 24/7 support. I have had several calls from Plusnet about my existing service. I believe they want all their customers off of monthy / legacy contracts, and are bugging them to do so. I would rather leave.

c) Lack of listening - I never ever really got the impression they listened to their customers. Not in 2005. Not in 2010. Not now. They take on board the feedback, and their strategy eventually ignores it, either at the Plusnet or more likely, at the BT level.

What's stopping PN changing anything in future? Not a lot, and the old "price beats all" argument will be half the reason most of their customers will put up with any changes. I get the impression they will squeeze the service to a minimum to maximise the profits (rather than provide a service worthy of the value of the money each customer spends).

Edited by camieabz (Sat 27-Jun-15 13:42:05)

Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 27-Jun-15 13:46:18
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
The final position on it is that anyone who signed up to Plusnet prior to the 13th July 2015 whilst the websites says 24/7 customer support should be given an email or even letter stating the changes and giving all customers 30 days from the 13th July 2015 to contact Plusnet to discuss the future of their accounts.

This will not just give those who require the support after 10PM the option to leave penalty free but also give those who are not dependant on support between 10PM & 7AM to see if it does actually improve the support that for some time now has been below expectations for sure.

The issue at the moment also is that only a select number of sources have got this information and even though Plusnet has confirmed this to be true there hasn't been any official announcement from Plusnet (that I'm aware of) and no communication regarding these changes has yet made it to anyone's inbox and nothing on member centre either,

For all we know Plusnet might send us all emails saying that from the 13th July 2015 support hours are changing and the option to leave Plusnet penalty free will be open for 30 days starting from the 13th July 2015, If you do not contact us within this period we will assume you are happy with the revisions to service/contract and enroll you on the new terms and conditions.

Failing any of this, I have already opened a complaint ticket and hopefully all these issues will be addressed on that shortly,

But failing any communications from Plusnet regarding these changes I will be assuming the terms and conditions null and void therefore "non binding" this will mean I'm within my rights to cease my direct debit and be requesting an alternative provider of my choosing to take over the service currently provided by Plusnet and upon switching I will calculate the costs owed to Plusnet and submit this via a payment method of their choosing.

On a side note though:
Fair and square

We don't keep our customers in the dark, or make things complicated. We talk fairly and clearly in plain English, giving all the details. If we've messed up, we'll be honest and explain what we're doing to fix things, rather than trying to hide stuff.


HEHEHE

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM

Edited by mlmclaren (Sat 27-Jun-15 13:53:02)

Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Sat 27-Jun-15 13:58:07
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
How do they get out early though? Plusnet will argue that this is not a detrimental change, so you cannot leave penalty free.

If you escalate it further to arbitration/OFCOM/court, it will take many months.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sat 27-Jun-15 16:23:14
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
ok thanks for the answer smile

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sat 27-Jun-15 16:25:46
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
ofcom are already doing something, they will be contacting plusnet on the matter.

The question is how did you come to the conclusion this is not a detriment to customers?

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sat 27-Jun-15 16:30:04
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
how do you know what plusnet are thinking unless maybe as suspected, you are affiliated to them. As far as I am concerned until you prove it I do not see you as a neutral in these discussions, we know you have access to information only very few people have, and because you refuse to say how you have access (it must mean the truth is damaging to you) then I can only assume in all the conversations you pretend to be neutral you are not.

Also, plusnet are pushing this as some kind of service improvement, if so they would have no problem letting customers know they improving the service right, they know full well its a detriment hence the lack of contact as they dont want the complaints and cancellations.

I can tell you whats happened, they currently have the thinking that because its not a price increase it doesnt count as a detriment under ofcom, thats exactly what I asked ofcom to clarify and they confirmed that cutting something like 24.7 support is a material detriment to the contract, but you still refuse to accept this and I bet you have still not even contacted ofcom, you arrogant enough to believe plusnet's stance is right.

Whilst I accept the argument court's can come to "strange" decisions at times because they look at things in a weird way, ofcom is not that complicated, even if ofcom were forced to backdown because maybe the BT group has found some kind of loophole they would work on closing that loophole because the spirit of the current ofcom rules covers this.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 27-Jun-15 16:37:14)

Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Jun-15 17:16:41
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
Plusnet will argue that this is not a detrimental change, so you cannot leave penalty free.

In other words, given that PlusNet has consistently (for many years) advertised the availability of 24/7 support, are you now suggesting that they will equally advertise the less than 24/7 as being a Service-Enhancement?

Regards,
John
Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Sat 27-Jun-15 18:02:43
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet are suggesting that, not me.

If it came down to having 24/7 support but having to wait lengthy times on hold or having 07:30-22:00 support but with little or no waiting, I know what I would chose.
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sat 27-Jun-15 19:04:00
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
If you believe making this change will make a significant reduction in the call waiting times you must live in cloud cuckoo land! Only a handful of staff work overnight - reallocating them to the day shift is going to be a very small percentage increase in the number of operators.

This is pure and simple a cost reduction no matter how they try to dress it up. It's no co-incidence that it happens around the same time as they significantly degrade standard fibre from 40/20 to 40/2. TalkTalk is showing no sign of being less aggressive in their marketing and whatever they do Plusnet will match - to do that they have to cut costs wherever they think they can get away with it.

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User greenwich
(member) Sat 27-Jun-15 22:10:37
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jelv:
If you believe making this change will make a significant reduction in the call waiting times you must live in cloud cuckoo land! Only a handful of staff work overnight - reallocating them to the day shift is going to be a very small percentage increase in the number of operators.
You're right. And as I pointed out early in this thread, Plusnet have not even said that they are reallocating anyone to the day shift.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sat 27-Jun-15 23:00:15
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jelv:
If you believe making this change will make a significant reduction in the call waiting times you must live in cloud cuckoo land! Only a handful of staff work overnight - reallocating them to the day shift is going to be a very small percentage increase in the number of operators.

This is pure and simple a cost reduction no matter how they try to dress it up. It's no co-incidence that it happens around the same time as they significantly degrade standard fibre from 40/20 to 40/2. TalkTalk is showing no sign of being less aggressive in their marketing and whatever they do Plusnet will match - to do that they have to cut costs wherever they think they can get away with it.


exactly, its not as if there is a full crew on the ngiht shift.

When I worked for a call centre, in a room which had 140 people in the day there was just 3 people at night.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 27-Jun-15 23:39:22
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
I was looking at an ad banner on Plusnets website earlier about the £45,000 per month they apparently pay out to customers who have referred someone into Plusnet...

Sorry but £45.000 per month could cover a lot of peoples wages and also be invested in equipment and capacity..

It really isn't hard to see where some of Plusnet's major fans come from when you see that not are Plusnet just cheap but they also allow customers to make money from there service.

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 28-Jun-15 01:00:33
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
sadly now days its all about customer acquisition, that trumps everything, if you not growing you dead is the latest craze.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 01:04:49
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
providers need to just supply a service at a cost that covers providing the service, keeps profits in the green and also allows for maintenance and repairs..

I'm sick of constantly hearing about providers running everything to its max capability and then some all because they don't have the money

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 01:55:59
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by camieabz:
- if I must change to a 12-month contract, it will be with very reliable supplier.
Nowhere are Plusnet suggesting you have to change to a 12-month contract. What makes you think you might have to?

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User StephenTodd
(experienced) Sun 28-Jun-15 09:41:03
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You will probably need to move to a 12 month (or longer) contract if you want a cheap deal. That has always been the case, and with all ISPs.

--
Recently moved from BT Infinity 2 to PlusNet. Very happy so far.
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Sun 28-Jun-15 10:43:27
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
In reply to a post by jelv:
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
If you believe making this change will make a significant reduction in the call waiting times you must live in cloud cuckoo land! Only a handful of staff work overnight - reallocating them to the day shift is going to be a very small percentage increase in the number of operators.

This is pure and simple a cost reduction no matter how they try to dress it up. It's no co-incidence that it happens around the same time as they significantly degrade standard fibre from 40/20 to 40/2. TalkTalk is showing no sign of being less aggressive in their marketing and whatever they do Plusnet will match - to do that they have to cut costs wherever they think they can get away with it.


exactly, its not as if there is a full crew on the ngiht shift.

When I worked for a call centre, in a room which had 140 people in the day there was just 3 people at night.


Quite right. When I last asked, a little while ago now, there were only two staff handling customer calls at night. These staff were also doing other tasks in between handling the calls. I somehow doubt that the number of staff dealing with calls at night has increased. When you look at Plusnet's own statistics, call volumes would not justify an increase in staff taking calls. BUT Plusnet need to answer this question -

Business Support is there 24/7 now, and as Plusnet's "case" for this reduction in hours for Residential customers is no doubt that so few people call, why can't the Business Support handle any Residential customers but in a lower priority queue?
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 10:58:32
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
That's not a "must". That's trying to get a cheap retention deal on a unique (and already cheap) product. He can pay the standard price and be on that product indefinitely, on monthly terms. I see no problem with that.

To get 40/10 cheaper than his current 40/20 I'd be interested to see where he would go smile.

Only he can answer my question. You and I can't tongue. Which is why I asked him.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Sun 28-Jun-15 11:19:40
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
I cannot for one second believe there were just two staff members covering 850,000 customers at night in Leeds and Sheffield recently though. They were recruiting fixed term staff last year for the night shift.

If this is correct though, it cannot be a cost cutting exercise unless you really expect them to care about saving £30-35k in salaries.
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Sun 28-Jun-15 11:24:43
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
If I want to change to FTTC, it will probably 18 months, or maybe 12 if I find such a contract. If I have to be locked into such things, I will look for an ISP that isn't paring back their services.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 11:54:24
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
Currently BT and Zen offer 12 month contracts and Pulse8 offer contract free fibre broadband too...

I'm going to be considering Zen when I move from Plusnet but that is only because Zen has LLU at my exchange..

I've asked Pulse8 if they use the same backhaul providers for there Fibre service as there ADSL but they haven't had the curtesy to reply to either of my 2 emails requesting a quote and some info... so!

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 12:46:15
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
Ah, I was forgetting you aren't on FTTC yet. Sorry.

But nobody "must" buy an internet package that doesn't meet their requirements anyway.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Sun 28-Jun-15 13:09:05
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Nobody must buy milk, but if you drink tea and like milk in it, you're kind going to have to.

If I want FTTC can I get a monthly contract?
Standard User Spud2003
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 13:19:03
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by camieabz:
If I want FTTC can I get a monthly contract?


Yes, Pulse8 - https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 13:43:03
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
Not on Plusnet, whatever the merits or demerits of the package. So what's that got to do with it smile?

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User flippery
(experienced) Sun 28-Jun-15 14:44:05
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Next you may see is £6.75/ month BT out of contract charge. This was in renewal reminder sent to me. Renewed with BT as they offered £39/ month including line, anytime calls, broadband and TV plus BT Sport
Standard User ZenUserJP
(newbie) Sun 28-Jun-15 15:57:05
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ChrisAO:
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
In reply to a post by jelv:
... nested quotes trimmed ...


exactly, its not as if there is a full crew on the ngiht shift.

When I worked for a call centre, in a room which had 140 people in the day there was just 3 people at night.


Quite right. When I last asked, a little while ago now, there were only two staff handling customer calls at night. These staff were also doing other tasks in between handling the calls. I somehow doubt that the number of staff dealing with calls at night has increased. When you look at Plusnet's own statistics, call volumes would not justify an increase in staff taking calls. BUT Plusnet need to answer this question -

Business Support is there 24/7 now, and as Plusnet's "case" for this reduction in hours for Residential customers is no doubt that so few people call, why can't the Business Support handle any Residential customers but in a lower priority queue?


There were 2 until 2013 when there were 4 and then 2 again. I know this because I used to be one of the 2 because no one else in my team wanted to do it. So I often did 2-3 rows of nights at once - at £100 per 4 shifts on top!
Standard User ZenUserJP
(newbie) Sun 28-Jun-15 15:58:33
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by camieabz:
If I want to change to FTTC, it will probably 18 months, or maybe 12 if I find such a contract. If I have to be locked into such things, I will look for an ISP that isn't paring back their services.


You get what you pay for - Zen is £46,99 including line rental for unlimited FTTC and they don't have any problems
Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 17:38:33
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
You can get TOP customer service, no contract tie-in even for fibre and the best ever call rates from my ISP. They have and still are jumping through hoops to sort my flaky line.
https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband

Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 17:40:19
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by camieabz:
Nobody must buy milk, but if you drink tea and like milk in it, you're kind going to have to.

If I want FTTC can I get a monthly contract?

You can along with top customer service and lowest calls - Not with Plusnet though as Bob said.
https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband

Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 17:45:37
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Not sure how you asked, but a mail to bbsupport@pulse8broadband.co.uk will have Adam the CD reply to you very quickly TODAY as he has me.
For your info, Pulse8 use BT or TT ADSL LLU where an exchange is unbundled. For fibre which I have, it's resold Talktalk Business fiber, which is just sold on BT Infinity.

Edited by professor973 (Sun 28-Jun-15 17:46:36)

Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 17:47:45
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
You can get TOP customer service, no contract tie-in even for fibre and the best ever call rates from my ISP. They have and still are jumping through hoops to sort my flaky line.
https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband


In reply to a post by professor973:
In reply to a post by camieabz:
Nobody must buy milk, but if you drink tea and like milk in it, you're kind going to have to.

If I want FTTC can I get a monthly contract?

You can along with top customer service and lowest calls - Not with Plusnet though as Bob said.
https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband


2 posts to promote a provider... is this really required?

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 17:48:47
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
what is this "80/40 fibre" you have in your signature?

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 17:58:57
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Yes if someone is slagging a good provider off.

Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:00:39
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes? *DELETED*


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by MrSaffron
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:00:42
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
That's Nice!

That's two people I've touched the nerves of today! laugh Oh Dear...

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:02:22
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes? *DELETED*


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by MrSaffron
Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:04:34
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Here if he is brave - 24/7 customer service! http://www.directsavetelecom.co.uk/fibre-broadband.php

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:42:13
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes? *DELETED*


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
How about the pair of don't bicker.

The 80/40 question was reasonably valid, and I am assuming poster means they sell both the Openreach 80/20 product and the Openreach 40/10 products. The listing as 80/40 being the point of confusion that started a minor spat

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User professor973
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:47:56
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes? *DELETED*


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
If you could clamp down on sotty attitudes, you may find less bickering ..... That is all

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:49:10
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes? *DELETED*


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
With pleasure

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 28-Jun-15 18:53:08
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
we not saying its two people, we saying more it will be a skeleton in comparison to whatever they have in the day, and as such its not really going to make a dent in daytime call queues even if 100% night staff were retained and moved to the daytime.

At my call centre the difference in daytime calls and night time was absolutely massive. Nighttime was almost completely dead, the night staff were having to catch up on offline stuff in addition to taking calls so they were not sitting there twiddling their thumbs. Consider that plusnet leave tickets unanswered for several days at a time, it would have been more sensible to have night staff deal with the tickets. Either there is some seriously bad resource management currently at plusnet or they are going all out on cost cutting agressively. It may also be they deliberately making a difference between BT broadband and plusnet, so deliberate congestion, less support hours etc. Perhaps too many people have moved from BT retail to plusnet lately and they dont like it.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 28-Jun-15 18:54:05)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 19:05:05
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
If they don't move to Plusnet it will be to an ISP outside BT Group, so it's cutting of their nose to spite their face if that is the policy.

I imagine that even away from these forums, and possibly with the hundreds or thousands of Anonymous visitors per day, (currently 25 registered and 119 Anonymous active withing the last 10 minutes), there will be something in six figures fed up with the huge rental and other charges from BT Consumer to pay for BT Sport, TV and suchlike that they have no real interest in.

A lot of them will be on expiring or expired 12/18-month minimum terms.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 19:15:39
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes? *DELETED*


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
If you could clamp down on sotty attitudes, you may find less bickering ..... That is all


I'm sorry but I did what wrong exactly?

Your the one who came at me on a defensive and then replied to me with an attitude just like you have been doing on here for the past 2-3 weeks.

Some have retaliated quite abruptly but I won't be doing that.

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User ZenUserJP
(newbie) Sun 28-Jun-15 19:27:29
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
You can get TOP customer service, no contract tie-in even for fibre and the best ever call rates from my ISP. They have and still are jumping through hoops to sort my flaky line.
https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband


You seem to be a one man promotion band for this ISP and that really puts me off - sorry. And so they should be sorting out your line - it's in the supply of services regulations. Nothing special there in my eyes. HOWEVER

When they have over 100 "they are awesome" ISPr reviews and a bit of history behind them then I will look at them..
Standard User ZenUserJP
(newbie) Sun 28-Jun-15 19:32:27
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
Yes if someone is slagging a good provider off.


As you are not a current Plusnet customer then who are you to call them good? Also no one slagged off your beloved Pulse8 so really sir you need to pipe it down don't you?

I think that you just jumped in and that's wrong. But that's only what I think so won't count for much
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 28-Jun-15 20:04:09
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
of course I am only speculating but my guess is there has been a fair few moving from bt to plusnet, post bt sport launch.

Me and Jamie are two such people.

Plusnet Fibre Unlimited BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 20:32:13
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I know. I didn't bring out the part of your post mine addressed, as I thought it obvious.

"It may also be they deliberately making a difference between BT broadband and plusnet, so deliberate congestion, less support hours etc. Perhaps too many people have moved from BT retail to plusnet lately and they dont like it."

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 22:04:09
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I wonder if they are setting Plusnet up to become a target as I did hear BT might need to sacrifice something for EE deal to go through?

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User theboylard
(regular) Sun 28-Jun-15 22:31:11
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Surely if they're sniffing the market for a buyer they'd want the business to "appear" healthy?

Why buy a business that is shedding customers, their own forums full of complaints and third party sites (like here) awash with unhappy campers - any prospective buyer would look to get it as cheap as possible with this kind baggage!

Must change my sig too, thats not right now!!

Plusnet FTTC - early days yet smile
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 22:32:58
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: theboylard] [link to this post]
 
It appears still to be gaining customers.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 22:37:09
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: theboylard] [link to this post]
 
It would be the number of customers (contracted) that would matter in the case of a sale ... not how happy they are and how healthy the company is.. and considering Plusnet has grown "too fast " (some would say) it does look commercially attractive.

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 22:37:54
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
exactly I forgot that too..

So fresh contract for 12 - 18 months.

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 22:39:43
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Think it would be out of the question for Vodafone to maybe take some customers?

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Sun 28-Jun-15 23:23:39
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Thanks all for replies. Will look into things. Plusnet are obviously not the option for long-term contracts if our fears have grounds.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 23:27:42
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
I didn't even realise they seem to already be in the market!

As for will they take Plusnet customers, your guess is as good as mine.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User ZenUserJP
(newbie) Sun 28-Jun-15 23:34:13
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
About a week ago I think they started. It was on here I think I saw it anyway

I noticed a new forum appear when I was signing up
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 23:38:05
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ZenUserJP] [link to this post]
 
Yep. I've googled them and found it. Also found the tbb News Article.

Thanks anyway though smile.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 23:42:27
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Think they're only accepting customers in Yorkshire currently

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 28-Jun-15 23:52:47
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
I wonder what the Call/Chat staff would say if I went on and asked if they provide a static IP address and if they have IPv6?

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Jun-15 23:56:21
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Nnnnyeeeah I don't think its going to be very popular amongst many of us folk...

But it does serve a purpose "I hope" but as many have feared I also fear that its going to take some time for them to pull some custom in, hence my comments about them buying a customer base and migrating them over.

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User MCM
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 29-Jun-15 01:21:19
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Think they're only accepting customers in Yorkshire currently
In which case London has moved 150 or so miles north.
Standard User techguy
(experienced) Mon 29-Jun-15 08:06:42
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
I expect their data shows that the calls late into the night/early morning are minimal.

Virgin (ADSL) => Namesco => Newnet => O2 => Plusnet => Zen => Newnet => Zen => Freeola => Vivaciti (using O2 Wholesale DSL) => Xilo (C&W Wholesale) => Xilo (O2 Wholesale) => Xilo (TT Wholesale due to O2 Wholesale closure) => Zen LLU
Router: Billion 7800N
Note: I don't lay turf for anyone. astro or otherwise, all views and opinions expressed are my own based on experience.

Edited by techguy (Mon 29-Jun-15 08:12:11)

Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Mon 29-Jun-15 08:39:36
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: theboylard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by theboylard:
Why buy a business that is shedding customers, their own forums full of complaints and third party sites (like here) awash with unhappy campers - any prospective buyer would look to get it as cheap as possible with this kind baggage!
That's not how it works - it's accountants that look at these things and they will be looking at the bottom line only.

Just remember how much things went downhill at Plusnet in the months preceding the sale to BT!

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 29-Jun-15 10:28:24
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
Think they're only accepting customers in Yorkshire currently
In which case London has moved 150 or so miles north.


Well I did say "Think" no need to be so sarcastic frown

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User Oliver341
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 29-Jun-15 11:09:49
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
The new service, called Vodafone Connect, will launch on a small scale in the next few weeks in Manchester, Hampshire, Berkshire and Surrey followed by Essex, Hertfordshire and Yorkshire, although only to existing Vodafone mobile customers. Non-customers will be able to receive broadband later in the year.


Oliver.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 29-Jun-15 11:18:55
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
Yes thats what i saw... Thanks smile

WBC 4400/800 @ 4.2Km > TP-Link TD-W8968v3
FTTC 66000/19999 @ 450m > HG612 > Asus RT-AC87U BQM
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Mon 29-Jun-15 11:19:56
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ZenUserJP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:
In reply to a post by ChrisAO:
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
... nested quotes trimmed ...


exactly, its not as if there is a full crew on the ngiht shift.

When I worked for a call centre, in a room which had 140 people in the day there was just 3 people at night.


Quite right. When I last asked, a little while ago now, there were only two staff handling customer calls at night. These staff were also doing other tasks in between handling the calls. I somehow doubt that the number of staff dealing with calls at night has increased. When you look at Plusnet's own statistics, call volumes would not justify an increase in staff taking calls. BUT Plusnet need to answer this question -

Business Support is there 24/7 now, and as Plusnet's "case" for this reduction in hours for Residential customers is no doubt that so few people call, why can't the Business Support handle any Residential customers but in a lower priority queue?


There were 2 until 2013 when there were 4 and then 2 again. I know this because I used to be one of the 2 because no one else in my team wanted to do it. So I often did 2-3 rows of nights at once - at £100 per 4 shifts on top!


Thanks for confirming.
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Mon 29-Jun-15 11:32:47
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
I cannot for one second believe there were just two staff members covering 850,000 customers at night in Leeds and Sheffield recently though. They were recruiting fixed term staff last year for the night shift.

If this is correct though, it cannot be a cost cutting exercise unless you really expect them to care about saving £30-35k in salaries.


Well wrong again AndyHCZ It just goes to prove your speculation was completely wrong. Why on earth would you possibly imagine that for the very low call volume overnight that more than a couple of staff would be needed. There will no doubt be staff on call in the event of an emergency problem. As jelv said earlier you are living in cloud cuckoo land.
See the reply by ZenUserJP in case you missed it
There were 2 until 2013 when there were 4 and then 2 again. I know this because I used to be one of the 2 because no one else in my team wanted to do it. So I often did 2-3 rows of nights at once - at £100 per 4 shifts on top

So the suggestion
Business Support is there 24/7 now, and as Plusnet's "case" for this reduction in hours for Residential customers is no doubt that so few people call, why can't the Business Support handle any Residential customers but in a lower priority queue?

is a perfectly viable idea. Why do you continue to undermine it and detract from it with your posts?
Standard User azrael316
(regular) Mon 29-Jun-15 11:36:40
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ZenUserJP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:
There were 2 until 2013 when there were 4 and then 2 again. I know this because I used to be one of the 2 because no one else in my team wanted to do it. So I often did 2-3 rows of nights at once - at £100 per 4 shifts on top!


So, which team were you at Plusnet? I was there around 2012 to 2015. wink
Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Mon 29-Jun-15 12:10:20
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps you should be clearer what you write:

When I last asked, a little while ago now, there were only two staff handling customer calls at night.

Who exactly did you ask?
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Mon 29-Jun-15 12:20:36
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: azrael316] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by azrael316:
In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:
There were 2 until 2013 when there were 4 and then 2 again. I know this because I used to be one of the 2 because no one else in my team wanted to do it. So I often did 2-3 rows of nights at once - at £100 per 4 shifts on top!


So, which team were you at Plusnet? I was there around 2012 to 2015. wink


Can you possibly confirm the number of staff handling Residential CSC calls during the night as well?
Standard User alext05
(committed) Mon 29-Jun-15 12:58:17
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
He's already done it here.

In reply to a post by azrael316:
I can see why it is being done.

The 6:30 shift was a favorite of mine, probably 2-3 calls in that first hour, a nice start to the day.

At the other end, after about 10:30 it used to drop right off, and after 11:30 totally dead.

The "Nightshift" comprised of 3 to 4 people.. wink
Standard User azrael316
(regular) Mon 29-Jun-15 13:00:40
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
The same, those 4 staff answered all calls.
Standard User alext05
(committed) Mon 29-Jun-15 13:13:02
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: alext05] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet tops broadband and home phone customer service charts - article from uSwitch

Interesting
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Mon 29-Jun-15 13:39:50
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
Perhaps you should be clearer what you write:

When I last asked, a little while ago now, there were only two staff handling customer calls at night.

Who exactly did you ask?


Not only in light of ZenUserJP and azrael316's responses, is your remark irrelevant, the "clarity" or otherwise of what I said has nothing to do with your incorrect speculation.
I see from some other of your posts you seem to delight in asking for lots of personal information to be posted in a public forum. As if I'm going to tell you who I asked!
"The person I was chatting to at CSC" is the answer, and that's all I intend to say.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Mon 29-Jun-15 13:46:00
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
Did you ask at night?
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Mon 29-Jun-15 13:46:22
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Asking someone to give details of exactly where they sourced information from? That's a bit ripe coming from you!

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Mon 29-Jun-15 13:56:53
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Re: Support hour changes?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Of course, that's when (on the few occasions that I need to call) I prefer to call, unless it's something that is red hot urgent.

Edited by ChrisAO (Mon 29-Jun-15 15:33:07)

Standard User ChrisAO
(newbie) Mon 29-Jun-15 15:48:16
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
Who exactly did you ask?

In reply to a post by jelv:
Asking someone to give details of exactly where they sourced information from? That's a bit ripe coming from you!

My thoughts entirely, but the other thought that has occurred to me is that they won't have 2 call centres open overnight at present anyway. I would lay money on it being Sheffield only.

ChrisAO
Plusnet customer since June 2003.
Standard User azrael316
(regular) Mon 29-Jun-15 16:31:47
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: ChrisAO] [link to this post]
 
Yep, Leeds closes at around 7pm (or did in January)

Sheffield was staffed fully upto Midnight.

By fully I mean around 25 or so staff and the night shifters. wink
Standard User flippery
(experienced) Mon 29-Jun-15 20:16:18
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: azrael316] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by azrael316:
In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:
There were 2 until 2013 when there were 4 and then 2 again. I know this because I used to be one of the 2 because no one else in my team wanted to do it. So I often did 2-3 rows of nights at once - at £100 per 4 shifts on top!


So, which team were you at Plusnet? I was there around 2012 to 2015. wink


On another thread poster said he was 71 now. Hm
Standard User TheFunkySpy
(knowledge is power) Sat 04-Jul-15 19:55:44
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: azrael316] [link to this post]
 
I always called the night shifters because they seemed to be better informed and had more time to deal with any issue(s). A shame.
Standard User ZenUserJP
(learned) Sat 04-Jul-15 20:02:27
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: flippery] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by flippery:
In reply to a post by azrael316:
In reply to a post by ZenUserJP:
There were 2 until 2013 when there were 4 and then 2 again. I know this because I used to be one of the 2 because no one else in my team wanted to do it. So I often did 2-3 rows of nights at once - at £100 per 4 shifts on top!


So, which team were you at Plusnet? I was there around 2012 to 2015. wink


On another thread poster said he was 71 now. Hm


Like no one old has ever worked at Plusnet? Hm back at you
Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Mon 06-Jul-15 09:01:26
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Phoned PN around 2.00pm yesterday (Sunday) and eventually got through to CS (UK) about 30 miutes later, got through to BT CS (India) in less than 5 minutes prior to making the call to PN.

plusnet user
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 06-Jul-15 10:06:57
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Apprentice] [link to this post]
 
How useful was each?

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 58162/14182kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Mon 06-Jul-15 10:53:49
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
BT retail CS said that they were sorry but couldn't complete a line fault check as I wasn't a customer of BT tongue

PN CS are always as far as the few calls I've had to make to them very good and easy to understand, it is just the length of the wait for a call to be answered which is annoying, of course I know you don't have to wait so long in non peak times if you can leave it till then laugh

plusnet user
Standard User ultra
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 07-Jul-15 01:10:27
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by StephenTodd:
24/7 support is pretty important to some. This should count as a significant detrimental change to their contract and thus mean people can leave/transfer without penalty.

It's certainly a detrimental change in my view, working 00:00 to 08:00 as I generally do, and have usually found short/no queues when I have rung in the past at some hour in my 'day' (like 03:00)

I guess that the hours they suggest fit in with more regular users, and is understandable, but there are significant downsides for customers who still find there to be queues in the new hours, and I'm also guessing that if this means that some "antisocial hours" allowance has been scrapped, it may also mean many staff will be losing money.

Added to which, there may be instances, since so much of the PN engineering work is overnight, that a customer wants to phone with a problem, but then finds they are ringing outside the new hours (I would not have known if I had not seen this on TB this morning), and such customers may quickly become ex-customers, or at the very least, negative towards PN and steer business away (and then leave when their contract expires).

With the price hike coming fairly soon, as well, it looks to me as if PN will be happy to see their customer numbers drop - just might be a gamble if the numbers drop too much!

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...
Standard User ultra
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 07-Jul-15 02:14:59
Print Post

Re: Support hour changes?


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for that link and the precis (hint for others: a precis is useful in case a site is down/ closed)

http://www.vodafone.co.uk/broadband/deals/index.htm
just gave me a 500 (internal server) error so couldn't see what was being discussed from that.

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

Edited by ultra (Tue 07-Jul-15 02:21:10)

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