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Standard User Spud2003
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 10-Feb-17 22:04:09
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Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[link to this post]
 
After a campaign by left-wing activists Plusnet has decided to stop advertising in the Sun.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/02/uk-isp-...

The canard is that the Sun is morally unacceptable, in a way that the Guardian which pumps out vile identity politics hatred - is not. As part of democracy we give papers free reign to publish under the law and let the public decide with their wallet which they prefer. If we don't like a paper we don't buy it, but we do not try to hinder the spread of legal information - that is an attempt interfere with freedom of speech. Today the Sun is targeted, tomorrow some other voice they don't like ... it never ends.

The reality is all media comes with bias and all are guilty of something as far as somebody somewhere is concerned.

If Plusnet had made this decision off their own bat I would not be hugely bothered but the reality is they are now acting as a political proxy for the views of left-wing activists and undermining the free press in that context. If Plusnet are effectively playing politics I'll vote with my wallet - for another provider. frown

Edited by Spud2003 (Fri 10-Feb-17 22:04:35)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 10-Feb-17 23:53:31
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
I wonder if the ads appear in the hard-copy newspaper, or are just random AdSense insertions in the online one? Which no doubt Plusnet can stop and say they have done.

As for the twitterati, such as Fibreman, no doubt he is an extremely rational person with well thought out opinions cogently put.

O maybe he isn't.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
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Edited by RobertoS (Fri 10-Feb-17 23:54:13)

Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 11-Feb-17 10:31:39
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
OMG!

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Standard User philippercival
(knowledge is power) Sat 11-Feb-17 10:58:01
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
If people are free to choose which paper they buy, then surely advertisers are free to choose where they place their adverts. Presumably they actually place them where they think that they are likely to get the greatest take up.

Standard User Spud2003
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 11-Feb-17 11:52:33
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: philippercival] [link to this post]
 
There are posts addressing those issues in the ISPreview thread ...

It's a pressure group, targeting right-leaning papers ... this is from the Wikipedia entry where Stop Funding Hate attempt to dance on the head of a pin -

Writing for the Press Gazette, Dominic Ponsford criticised Stop Funding Hate and its campaigners for encouraging people to influence the content of newspapers they don't read themselves, and raised concerns about advertisers influencing the content of newspapers.[14] In a response to Ponsford's article, Charlie Brinkhurst-Cuff argued that Ponsford did not consider the "total vacuum of responsibility within the journalism world when it comes to how our content is going to affect our audience".[15] In Spiked, Naomi Firsht described the campaign as "entirely about censorship", arguing that consumers should simply not buy newspapers if they disagree with their content.[16] Stop Funding Hate responded to criticisms of censorship by saying that they "fully support freedom of choice & are not calling for any publication to be removed from sale".[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Funding_Hate


The only two reasons this behaviour can be supported is if somebody is so naive they make Forrest Gump look streetwise, or they actually don't support freedom of ideas and speech - and there are many of those intolerant types about, sadly.
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 12-Feb-17 20:05:37
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Spud2003:
If we don't like a paper we don't buy it, but we do not try to hinder the spread of legal information - that is an attempt interfere with freedom of speech.
Only if it's the government doing it.

People do so like to bandy 'freedom of speech' around yet so many people don't properly understand it. FoS is about the legal rights of citizens to spread information. People trying to prevent newspapers publishing stories is not a Freedom of Speech matter. It is a civil matter. As a member of a free society I have as much right to try and stop newspapers publishing as they do to publish.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 12-Feb-17 20:07:51
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Spud2003:
The only two reasons this behaviour can be supported is if somebody is so naive they make Forrest Gump look streetwise, or they actually don't support freedom of ideas and speech - and there are many of those intolerant types about, sadly.
Freedom of speech is a purely a covenant between citizens and the government. Please point out where the government is getting involved here because I don't see it.

What private individuals and private institutions do has nothing to do with freedom of speech. That's just citizens 'mucking about'.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 12-Feb-17 21:36:54
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Freedom of speech is a purely a covenant between citizens and the government. Please point out where the government is getting involved here because I don't see it.
The definitions of 'Freedom of speech' that I have found include the right to express one's opinions without restraint, or societal sanction. I.e. it is not just governments that can deny the freedom.

Michael Chare
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 12-Feb-17 22:33:35
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
We lost that right when Twitter was created.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
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Standard User Spud2003
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 13-Feb-17 01:13:20
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
If freedom of speech is purely about rights governments give - where do governments get the philosophical framework they enshrine in legislation? From thin air? The ideas clearly existed before legislation.

Freedom of speech is about governments and/or society - the law is not the be all and end all, otherwise laws implemented by totalitarian regimes limiting press freedom would still fall under "freedom to speak" by your government defined definition.


But if we follow your line of reasoning - governments set the legal boundaries for free speech, not you, or Stop Funding Hate. A general definition of free speech is -

'Free speech is the right to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, by any means.'


This basic notion is embodied in the Human Rights Act(even though that references the state).


You may feel you have the right to stop newspapers spreading ideas - even though the law is happy with it - but you would probably not be happy about someone having your ideas silenced.


If you were able to vote on what current newspapers should be allowed to publish - would you use that vote? If you would then you're clearly uncomfortable with legal and differing opinions in society, and if you wouldn't then you would agree the press should be free to publish within the law - without intimidation.

As a member of a free society I have as much right to try and stop newspapers publishing as they do to publish.


Trying to "stop newspapers publishing" is exactly the kind of society nobody should want, any more than burning a book. Free societies prefer to discuss ideas, rather than attempting to stop discussion.

Nobody is attempting to take your voice away, but you are supporting other views being silenced.

Edited by Spud2003 (Mon 13-Feb-17 06:21:44)

Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Feb-17 13:48:25
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Freedom of speech is a purely a covenant between citizens and the government. Please point out where the government is getting involved here because I don't see it.
The definitions of 'Freedom of speech' that I have found include the right to express one's opinions without restraint, or societal sanction. I.e. it is not just governments that can deny the freedom.
Indeed. Neither of which are occurring here. It's just a spat between private organisations.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 13-Feb-17 13:57:12
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Spud2003:
If freedom of speech is purely about rights governments give - where do governments get the philosophical framework they enshrine in legislation? From thin air? The ideas clearly existed before legislation.
That's irrelevant to this discussion. You're trying to beat the 'Freedom of Speech' drum and it simply doesn't apply here.
This basic notion is embodied in the Human Rights Act(even though that references the state).
Exactly. Of course it references the state. That's because that's what it's all about.

You may feel you have the right to stop newspapers spreading ideas - even though the law is happy with it - but you would probably not be happy about someone having your ideas silenced.
Who says I think that? I said I have the right to try. That means I can complain to them. I can withhold funding. I can refuse to stock them if I own a shop or a distributors.

No-one has to be happy about it. If I post something here and Mr Saffron removes my post I might indeed not be happy about it. But it is in no way, shape or form a violation of free speech. It is simply the owner of a private space choosing to exercise their right to decide what messages are carried on their bulletin board.

Freedom of speech means simply that there should be no specific laws preventing things being discussed and that the government will not interfere in the process. As it happens there isn't a country in the world that has truly free speech but that's neither here nor there.

This discussion concerns a combination of private institutions and/or individuals trying to influence each other. That's just the normal cut and thrust of civilised life. As long as the government lets them get on with it and doesn't itself intervene everything is as it should be. PN have the right to choose who gets their advertising budget and as a public company the right (maybe even the obligation) to explain their choices. You have the right to change providers according to the terms of your contract.

There is no problem here.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Mon 13-Feb-17 14:03:42)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 13-Feb-17 14:25:58
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
As it happens there isn't a country in the world that has truly free speech ....
As in libel and slander laws in many countries. Or torture and worse in some others.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 54999/14466Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Spud2003
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 13-Feb-17 15:54:56
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
It's the points I raise that you don't answer that are more revealing about your outlook on freedom to discuss and debate ideas, than the ones that you attempt to.

It is quite clear you feel you have the right to attempt to stop publication, rather than discuss and debate after publication - that is known as censorship.

As a member of a free society I have as much right to try and stop newspapers publishing as they do to publish.


There are many times I have been irritated by articles in newspapers, many times I have thought they weren't helpful - but that's actually a healthy democracy. It has never, ever, ever, occurred to me to attempt to defund a newspaper beyond simply choosing not to purchase it, the ultimate judgement - if a title has no merit the public will not purchase a copy. I'm not going to attempt to prevent people reading legal material that reflects their views whenever they want.

I'm going to leave this discussion here, I think it's clear what your attitude to freedom to spread legal ideas is(however you attempt to perfume it).

Edited by Spud2003 (Mon 13-Feb-17 15:56:09)

Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Mon 13-Feb-17 21:25:15
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
Please explain the difference between your choosing not to buy a newspaper and Plusnet choosing not to advertise in a particular newspaper. You appear to be saying that the first is acceptable and the second censorship. Why and how?
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Tue 14-Feb-17 07:36:50
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
A private company choosing not to advertise with a given source of news is not an attack on the free press.

Perhaps you might consider the articles that are being attacked. Maybe ask the good folk of Liverpool about their opinion of the Sun. Ask 1 in 5 Muslims about the Sun etc.
Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Tue 14-Feb-17 10:16:39
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
tl;dr I believe this is about encouraging accuracy, proportionality and careful attention to materiality in reporting, not stifling debate and discussion.


This is really heading into "The Park" territory.

I don't think anyone disagrees that a media outlet has the right to set its own editorial policy, including political standpoint. What is, in my view, unacceptable is when the media report stories in a way that goes beyond what the evidence supports, often including the misuse of statistics. This is often done in ways that the proprietor and editor knows will resonate well with the readers, who might not read their familiar newspaper that critically. Unfortunately, balanced reporting of the issues and acceptance that we live in a complex world does not make for "juicy" headlines that sell papers.


There is an unfortunate tendency for every story to become polarised in the way it is reported. Take an issue that has personal resonance with me because I am severely physically disabled - the Paulley v First Group case about wheelchairs and baby buggies on buses. The case itself was about the right way to balance the needs of different users when there is only so much space on the buses, especially how this balance reconciles with the company's duty to provide reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act 2010 and the limits on the driver's powers under the regulations governing Passenger Carrying Vehicles. Much of the reporting seemed to want to turn this into wheelchairs v buggies, almost like a Harry Hill style punch-up. It wasn't about who "wins", but about how to try to ensure everyone can travel. There is no easy answer; if there was, the case would not have finished up in the Supreme Court.

It is arguable that the best answer is to introduce buses with separate provision for wheelchair users and buggies; such buses already exist in some areas. Somewhat analogous is the best practice of separating accessible toilets and baby change facilities. Partly this is because users can need a fair amount of time, partly this is because some disabled people have limited ability to wait and partly this is for hygiene reasons. Nappy changes and the use of potties can be incompatible with self-propelling wheelchairs (where anything on the floor will likely land up on the push rims and therefore the person's hands), also those reliant on clean techniques such as intermittent catheterisation are particularly vulnerable to any faecal contamination. However, it is still common to find the baby change in the accessible toilet, even in high traffic areas like motorway services. If I come across such a setup, I often find people are embarrassed if they feel they have made me wait in my powerchair or that they do not have the right to use the facility. That's not the way it works - there is no absolute priority for any group of users, nor do you have to disclose your (potentially hidden and embarrassing) reasons for wanting to use the accessible facility. If you have a need to use the facility, use it. I'll wait my turn if I can, otherwise I will ask politely if I can go next.


There are relatively few ways to call media proprietors to account over accuracy. The media, with considerable justification, has successfully argued for light touch regulation because of the importance of freedom of speech. A healthy democracy relies heavily on a free media to call government to account. There is a recognition that the right of free expression under Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights should not readily be curtailed. Yet, the power of the media has been abused, as was seen clearly during the Leveson inquiry.

Media outlets rely on funding - and in an increasingly online world, a lot of that funding comes from advertisers. Nothing in this campaign is suggesting the curtailment of discussion and debate, merely that inflammatory reporting of sensitive issues accompanied by commentary expressed in highly emotive terms is unhelpful and might be something advertisers wish to dissociate themselves from. In today's society, money talks - and it is an entirely legitimate form of activism to lobby economic actors to use their power to bring about specific ends, whether that is pension funds disinvesting from environmentally damaging companies or advertisers deciding not to advertise with certain media outlets. The effects of mass media editorial policy affect the whole of society, not just those who consume a particular outlet's output, not least through the ways that the media seeks to influence people's political views.


As has been said by various commentators, ask a representative group of British Muslims what they feel about the Daily Mail's reporting and the effect polarised reporting has had on their lives. There is no direct cause and effect between a particular media outlet and hate crime, but that does not mean unjustifiable polarisation in reporting should be socially acceptable. That said, we should not resile from reporting abuse by minorities honestly - but we should be careful in the way we use labels. If I was found guilty of a serious crime, then that should rightly be covered by the media and that coverage may well include pictures. However, it is immaterial that I'm disabled (or, for that matter, white, male and Christian), so such matters should not really feature in the commentary.

Materiality should always be a consideration for journalists. We should be particularly careful about confusing religious practices, cultural practices and individual beliefs. In situations like the Rotherham sexual abuse cases, there is understandable outrage over what the guilty did. Yet, if you are going to identify some or all of the guilty as Muslims, surely you should give equal prominence to the total condemnation of what they did by the Muslim community in Rotherham and beyond? My personal feeling is that the religious affiliation of the guilty is immaterial; I can't think of any mainstream religion that regards sexual abuse of the vulnerable as appropriate. Even for those who try to read news reports critically, it is hard to resist unconscious prejudice if a link is suggested to you.



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Standard User philippercival
(knowledge is power) Tue 14-Feb-17 12:50:48
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Excellent Post - thank you

Standard User tommy45
(knowledge is power) Tue 14-Feb-17 13:49:22
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: Spud2003] [link to this post]
 
Looks like they removed all the comments lol, i wonder if some were not PC so they were censored

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 14-Feb-17 13:50:39)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 16-Feb-17 03:52:46
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
I will add a lot more people than immigrants have been affected by speculative newspaper reports. One such example is benefit recipients who are the victim of made up stories in the press.

I think freedom of speech is over stretched, I think papers should be made to substantiate their stories with evidence and not be printing speculation as news. If they are posting an "opinion" then it should be in a blog or something, not as a news article.

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Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 16-Feb-17 03:53:05)

Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Thu 16-Feb-17 10:21:21
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Re: Looks like Plusnet has entered politics ...


[re: tommy45] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by tommy45:
Looks like they removed all the comments lol, i wonder if some were not PC so they were censored


Not wanting to get too involved it's not that some of them were not so PC, they were potentially illegal. For a site called ISP Review there's really no need to go down that rabbit hole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_and_Religious_H...
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