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Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Mon 24-Dec-18 11:02:00
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
See the Ts&Cs I posted - yes a sole trader is a business and PlusNet Ts&Cs specifically exclude this usage from their consumer products.


Plusnet's T&Cs do not trump the law.

Worse than this, just because a business is paying for a connection does not mean it is used for business purposes. For example, my business might provide broadband connections to low income households. The use of the connection is not business use.

Further, if I don't want to be tied to PN, I can sign up to their broadband as a business user registered for VAT, then when I want out, demand VAT invoices. I might be breaching their T&Cs but if they don't supply me a VAT invoice, they are breaking the law. I think the latter is more serious.

What would they do? Terminate my contract? Seems an easy way to get broadband on a shorter term. They would still legally need to supply me VAT invoices for the intervening time. They could chase me for damages I guess, but they have a legal duty to mitigate their own losses, and the loss of my custom would be entirely of their own choosing so real damages would be zero.

AAISP do the same thing with VAT invoices. To me it's sharp practice, if not a blatantly dishonest move.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 24-Dec-18 11:44:56
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by nemeth782:
In reply to a post by ian72:
See the Ts&Cs I posted - yes a sole trader is a business and PlusNet Ts&Cs specifically exclude this usage from their consumer products.
Plusnet's T&Cs do not trump the law.
Neither do you. As follows:-
Worse than this, just because a business is paying for a connection does not mean it is used for business purposes.
In which case you could not claim the Vat anyway.
For example, my business might provide broadband connections to low income households. The use of the connection is not business use.
What would it be then? Also, quite apart from whatever Plusnetís Business connection T & Cs say about unofficial reselling, how would your business make a profit? The logistics would make it almost if not completely impossible.

If you were giving this service free to these low income households, what rights would they have if you defaulted for any reason? What would your business T & Cs be, and how well would they stand up in court? Contract Law is a highly technical subject in its own right. Would you register as a charity? The Charity Commissioners might want rather a lot of information from you. Another very complex legal topic. As for Vat and charities, a legal nightmare.
A VAT-registered charity can reclaim all the input tax it is charged on purchases which directly relate to taxable goods or services it sells. A charity that is not VAT registered will not be able to recover the VAT it is charged on standard-rated or reduced-rated goods it buys from VAT-registered businesses.
And so on and so on with your further non-realistic fantasy scenarios. Iím bored dissecting them.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Mon 24-Dec-18 12:35:58
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You're right, you can't claim the VAT back in that circumstance, but that's irrelevant to the fact that VAT registered businesses are legally obligated to supply VAT invoices to VAT registered customers - even if they can't claim it back.

The example I gave from the top of my head was based on the Becta Home Access program - https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/201011021... , which Comet were one of the suppliers for. I worked for them back then and we did provide internet access to low income households. And yes, Comet went bust, and yes, they had no rights when Comet went bust, but that's not relevant to the fact that the service provider had to provide us VAT invoices.

Anyway, my core point is that yes, a business on a PN residential service is breaking their T&Cs, but that's a separate issue from PN breaking the law by refusing to provide a VAT invoice.


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Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Mon 24-Dec-18 12:46:13
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
People have been moaning about VAT invoices not being given for residential accounts for years.

Has it not occurred to you that if your arguments had any substance someone would have forced Plusnet, BT or AAISP to change that policy by now?

jelv

AAISP November 2016
(Previous ISP Plusnet November 2001 to October 2016) Why I left Plusnet
Telephone rental: Pulse8
Standard User TinyMongomery
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 24-Dec-18 22:10:18
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
I believe that your analysis is flawed. Plusnet are not selling the service to a VAT registered business but to a private individual. They don't sell their residential services to businesses. Therefore they are under no obligation to provide a VAT invoice.

The fact that the private individual is letting a business have some use of the service is not the responsibility of Plusnet.

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not to his own facts.
Standard User sheephouse
(member) Tue 25-Dec-18 00:46:04
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: TinyMongomery] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet will provide VAT invoices to non-VAT registered customers - as long as they pay the business tariff. Whether or not the customer is VAT registered has no effect on whether or not Plusnet provide a VAT invoice, so they are not insisting on exactly following their legal obligations, they are just being awkward.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 25-Dec-18 01:02:30
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
That isnít the OPís problem. He wants Vat invoices because he is Vat registered, and is prepared to pay the business tariff. But he also wants the entertainment add on, which he canít have on the business tariff.

On the residential tariff he can have the entertainment package, but not Vat invoices.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 25-Dec-18 01:04:14)

Standard User sheephouse
(member) Tue 25-Dec-18 23:23:35
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I have a business account too, so can't have entertainment packages (but I couldn't anyway as Plusnet won't sell entertainment packages on ADSL). But the point is there is no reason not to provide VAT invoices on residential accounts other than being awkward for the sake of it.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 25-Dec-18 23:37:17
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
It's a marketing strategy. Provide Vat invoices on residential packages and they pretty well stop selling the higher profit business packages. But don't gain sufficiently more customers to compensate for the loss of profit, and the people wishing to do that are almost certainly high bandwidth users as well.

It makes complete sense from a business point of view.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User ppppenguin99
(member) Wed 26-Dec-18 07:46:03
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Look at it the other way round for a moment. If you're a VAT registered business and want to use a domestic package what will it cost you? Such a business is likely to be a sole trader working from domestic premises.

Let's say that the annual cost of a domestic pacakage is £480 and that all of it can be regarded as a business expense. This isn't all 100% accurate but good enough for this illustration.

If you can reclaimn VAT that brings cost down to £400. Then if you're paying tax at basic 20% rate the net cost is £320. if you can't reclaim VAT the next cost is £384. An extra cost of £64. Annoying but not calamitous. If you assume part of the package is for domestic use then the gap reduces. If you're paying 40% tax likewise.
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