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Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 19-Dec-18 14:48:00
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VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[link to this post]
 
Hello,

First post in a verrrrrrrry long time!

I've been with Plusnet for 14 years. I work from home so need VAT invoices, Plusnet have stopped providing VAT invoices with residential products. I can move to a (more expensive) business product and get VAT invoices though with no access to entertainment packages. It's kind of ridiculous.

Any thoughts, possible solutions?

Reckon I'm going to be looking for an alternative phone and broadband provider.

Regards.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 19-Dec-18 15:24:53
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
BT do something similar, they assume VAT invoices are only relevant to businesses. Forgetting small businesses / sole traders are often VAT registered.

You could check with your accountant, but Plusnet are in the wrong from HMRC's perspective for not issuing as they are VAT registered. (as are British Telecommunications plc). So you could write the VAT number on the Plusnet invoice that you submit?

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - sync 19/Sep/18: 61,689 / 8,831 - G.INP & 3.0 dB SNRm
19 years of broadband, from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 19-Dec-18 16:12:29
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
This has some info.

Interesting paragraph:
You must use VAT invoices if you and your customer are VAT registered.
OP : Is the line in the companies name or yours as an individual? If it is in the company name and the company is VAT registered then it appears they have to provide a VAT invoice. If it is in your name (and assuming you aren't VAT registered) then it would seem from the link that they don't have to provide a VAT invoice.


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Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 19-Dec-18 16:52:20
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I was Vat registered, as a sole trader. Many others will be. However it does only cover a sole trader for items wholly or in part purchased for the business. Any non-business use has a myriad of regulations around it.

IMO Plusnet should still be providing a Vat invoice on request, but assuming the line and or broadband is used partially for broadband I suggest it is reasonable to require it to be on a business contract.

The exclusion of the entertainment package would seem unjustified, by the same logic. But separating out the Vat aspect of that may be complicated if it is bundled. It gets messy when I try to devise a way it could be added as a stand-alone in any way other than a separate non-VAT invoice.

Which raises the questions of both Plusnet's billing and order systems Ö. ROFL.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User ppppenguin99
(member) Thu 20-Dec-18 07:48:23
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The law seems to be a bit complicated here. A comprehensive looking interpretation:
http://stewartaccounting.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/20...

Unless you're VAT registered you can't require a supplier to issue a VAT invoice.But PN apparently won't supply domestic services to businesses. This would seem to include a lot of sole traders working from home who may have no real reason to buy a business service.

If you take a nelsonian approach and simply calcualte the VAT element of each PN invoice you then have to hope that if you get a VAT inspection, the inspector agrees that the problem is de minimis.One feels that HMRC have got rather bigger concerns but it's hard to be certain.
Standard User TinyMongomery
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 08:13:32
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ppppenguin99] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet T&Cs specifically prohibit the use of residential packages for business purposes. So why would they provide a VAT invoice?

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Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 09:14:30
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: TinyMongomery] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:
Plusnet T&Cs specifically prohibit the use of residential packages for business purposes. So why would they provide a VAT invoice?
Indeed:
2.1.3. use the services for personal use in the UK (so don't use the services to run your own business, but a couple of work emails or occasional home working are okay) and in accordance with our Acceptable Use Policy;
Ts&Cs are here
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 09:33:13
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: TinyMongomery] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:
Plusnet T&Cs specifically prohibit the use of residential packages for business purposes. So why would they provide a VAT invoice?

Is a sole trader, not a separate legal entity, using a broadband connection in their home, to send/receive emails for personal and commercial reasons as well as for domestic entertainment - a "business" in plusnet's eyes?

Its the same game BT retail play, and I know it has lost them many customers.

Some accountants advise sole traders just to write the VAT number on the invoice when submitting accounts. Give the problem to the HMRC !

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - sync 19/Sep/18: 61,689 / 8,831 - G.INP & 3.0 dB SNRm
19 years of broadband, from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Edited by jchamier (Thu 20-Dec-18 09:34:02)

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 10:29:54
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
See the Ts&Cs I posted - yes a sole trader is a business and PlusNet Ts&Cs specifically exclude this usage from their consumer products.
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 20-Dec-18 12:07:38
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the replies all!

My perspective is that any VAT registered supplier should provide a VAT invoice upon request. Furthermore it costs no more to generate a PDF featuring VAT than it does one that doesn't feature VAT.

I also don't believe that PlusNet are correct in putting 'business use only' in their T&Cs, it's a restrictive trading practice, it's not their business what the customer uses the connection for (unless it's illegal) and a large proportion all BB customers will use their connection for business use and either their employer or they themselves maybe VAT registered.

However if the business products were competitively priced and well featured it would not be a problem. Though a business product offers no advantages over a residential product, it will cost me more extra than I can reclaim in VAT and does not feature the entertainment packages.

They either need to offer VAT invoices on residential products or entertainment packages on competitively priced business products.

There's also a loyalty issue here, I've been loyal for nearly 15 years, when I signed up they just did broadband and provided VAT invoices as required.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User TinyMongomery
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 12:38:47
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
If you're VAT registered you're a business.

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not to his own facts.
Standard User TinyMongomery
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 12:46:52
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
Offcom say that
If you are a business considering a residential tariff, check the terms and conditions carefully. Not all providers will allow you to use a residential tariff for business purposes.
so it sounds as if they don't have any problem with such policies.

It would, obviously, be different if the provider didn't make such a restriction clear before you purchased the product.

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not to his own facts.
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Thu 20-Dec-18 13:01:52
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
Curious. What business type requires an entertainment package as part of its business dealings? Don't have to go into specifics if you prefer; just a hint.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 13:19:29
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
I'm guessing a business where it is also a residential address where the person wants to use a line for both business and pleasure. The alternative potentially is 2 lines - one for the business on an account where they allow business use and one for residential to do the rest. Of course if the business line is used a lot for residential then it becomes a little grey when it comes to things like tax right off as you should claim on the non-business usage - that would be tax evasion.
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 20-Dec-18 14:22:52
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: TinyMongomery] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:
If you're VAT registered you're a business.


I'm VAT registered - 'me trading as ...'

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 20-Dec-18 14:25:17
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by camieabz:
Curious. What business type requires an entertainment package as part of its business dealings? Don't have to go into specifics if you prefer; just a hint.


I'm VAT registered - 'me trading as ...' therefore I have some (VAT applicable) business transactions and some personal transactions. I should not need to duplicate services and products, rather I claim VAT on the appropriate proportion of the service that is used for business, i.e. mobile contracts, fuel etc.

So when it comes to broadband clearly the entertainment package element is not reclaimable in respect of VAT.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 14:33:56
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
The summary is PlusNet only allow residential connections to be used for "incidental business use" such as occasional working from home - they specifically do not allow it for running a business and therefore whilst they should legally provide a VAT receipt they can also cancel your service as you are not using it under the Ts&Cs you agreed to when you took it out.
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 20-Dec-18 14:36:04
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
I'm guessing a business where it is also a residential address where the person wants to use a line for both business and pleasure. The alternative potentially is 2 lines - one for the business on an account where they allow business use and one for residential to do the rest. Of course if the business line is used a lot for residential then it becomes a little grey when it comes to things like tax right off as you should claim on the non-business usage - that would be tax evasion.


As per my last post it is normal to claim VAT on the appropriate proportion of the service that is used for business, same with mobile contracts, fuel etc.

The amount of money we are talking about here is not great though for me it's the principal, if you provide a VAT applicable product or service then you should also provide a VAT invoice upon request.

I signed up to PlusNet when there was no distinction between business and residential products, why should I be disadvantaged by having to accept a compromise?

I'd be fine with a business product and even happy to pay a little more if it is somehow better, though it offers no advantages so there is absolutely no point if it costs me more than I am able to reclaim.

And of course if I did take on the business product then I am still only able to claim a proportion of the VAT because part of the usage is residential.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 20-Dec-18 14:39:14
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
The summary is PlusNet only allow residential connections to be used for "incidental business use" such as occasional working from home - they specifically do not allow it for running a business and therefore whilst they should legally provide a VAT receipt they can also cancel your service as you are not using it under the Ts&Cs you agreed to when you took it out.


As far as I recall when I took it out they did not have separate residential and business products.

The point is that it is quite legitimate to do some work at home plus social media, book holidays, online shopping and watch movies and you should not need have two different BB services to achieve this.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User teshy
(newbie) Thu 20-Dec-18 15:03:22
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 50pence:
The point is that it is quite legitimate to do some work at home plus social media, book holidays, online shopping and watch movies and you should not need have two different BB services to achieve this.


It may be legitimate, but it may be against a provider's terms and conditions. It is similar to pay TV for licensed premises who can't show televised sports events by subscribing to a residential TV package.

Also, if someone is claiming an internet subscription fee as a tax-deductible business expense and/or for VAT claim purposes and then also uses that internet connection for leisure purposes then HMRC could arguably claim that it can't be offset against tax / business expense.

However, if they are charging VAT then I thought they are required to provide a VAT breakdown along with VAT number.

Not an expert opinion by any means, probably needs an appropriately qualified professional's view.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 15:05:58
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
When was the last time you changed packages as I assume you aren't on the same package you were on 15 years ago? If you have changed packages (which I think you have) then you would have accepted the new Ts&Cs when you signed up to the new package - if you know when you last signed up to the package then you could try looking at the wayback machine to see if they have the Ts&Cs as they were at that time.

You may not think you need 2 different packages but with PlusNet you do. You may not like it but that is PlusNet's terms, you either accept them, get PlusNet to change them or go elsewhere.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 20-Dec-18 15:07:50
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: teshy] [link to this post]
 
However, if they are charging VAT then I thought they are required to provide a VAT breakdown along with VAT number.
From the link I posted earlier they only have to provide a VAT invoice where both the supplier and customer are VAT registered - but as the connection is not allowed to be used for business use then the customer cannot be a business - so no VAT invoice needed in law (maybe). I believe a VAT invoice should legally be provided in this case but I also believe PlusNet could then cancel the service due to breaking Ts&Cs.

Edited by ian72 (Thu 20-Dec-18 15:08:45)

Standard User sheephouse
(member) Thu 20-Dec-18 17:59:39
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I changed from a residential to a business tariff a few months ago as I work from home full time (and therefore the use of a residential account is against Plusnet's T&Cs). I don't actually need a VAT invoice. In fact I don't need anything different to the residential account (which is just as well, as there is no difference other than the T&Cs allow working from home and the availability of VAT invoices).
However, the use of a business account means that Plusnet TV isn't available. Requiring a home-based worker to have two different accounts is just ridiculous. I now realise it was a mistake to stay with Plusnet, so I'll move as soon as I'm out of contract (maybe sooner).
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 20-Dec-18 19:42:54
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 50pence:
Though a business product offers no advantages over a residential product, Ö.
I think you will find it has a reasonable SLA, where the residential basically has none.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User sheephouse
(member) Fri 21-Dec-18 10:05:50
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
From asking about the SLA, I understand that telephone has elevated priority, but broadband fix time is exactly the same as residential (unless you pay extra) apart from the fact you can report a problem 24/7.
One other difference is that there is traffic management on a business connection - however as almost all my traffic goes through a VPN that won't have any effect.
Edit: I just checked the business SLA - "For the Standard Care service level Plusnet aim to respond to faults within 8 hours. However there is no Service Level Guarantee (SLG) on fault resolution." To me that is pretty much the same as no SLA at all, especially when they "respond" by putting the ticket on hold for several days.

Edited by sheephouse (Fri 21-Dec-18 12:27:48)

Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sat 22-Dec-18 11:25:41
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
How long ago did you sign up?

I can't remember a time (going back 15+ years) when they didn't have separate business and residential products. And they've had something in their T&Cs/acceptable use policy about not using residential for business use for as long as I can remember.

I've just had a quick dip in the Web Archive - WayBack Machine and found this in their acceptable use policy from October 2007.
ANNEXE 1
ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY

1. Application of the Service

1.1 You are required to sign-up to an appropriate account type depending on your required utilisation. Home accounts are provided for Consumers. If you wish to use your account commercially then you must sign-up to a Business account or Teleworker account where appropriate. For guidance, we consider commercial use to be at a level above that which is running a part time Business or supporting any kind of hobby. Business accounts must be used if the account is to be used from any official Business Premises while Teleworkers are considered to be commercial use of a residential connection.

If a business wants to set a policy of restricting a particular service to residential users only it is up to them. Nobody is forcing you to use that service. If you don't agree with the T&Cs for the service you are considering you take your custom elsewhere. Plusnet are far from being the only ISP that enforces this policy by not providing VAT invoices.

jelv

AAISP November 2016
(Previous ISP Plusnet November 2001 to October 2016) Why I left Plusnet
Telephone rental: Pulse8
Standard User broadbandjockey
(member) Sat 22-Dec-18 14:31:53
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jelv:
Plusnet are far from being the only ISP that enforces this policy by not providing VAT invoices.


Indeed. I'm a 'one man' Ltd company. I have an EE business mobile phone account, that provides a VAT invoice, while 'personal' accounts don't. My wife's Three mobile account has no VAT details either.

Devil and deep blue sea here. HMRC don't like the idea of VAT being claimed back for anything 'entertainment' related (which includes buying drinks for clients etc), and Plusnet don't like the idea of consumer accounts being used for business purposes.
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 23-Dec-18 20:13:00
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: teshy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by teshy:
In reply to a post by 50pence:
The point is that it is quite legitimate to do some work at home plus social media, book holidays, online shopping and watch movies and you should not need have two different BB services to achieve this.


Also, if someone is claiming an internet subscription fee as a tax-deductible business expense and/or for VAT claim purposes and then also uses that internet connection for leisure purposes then HMRC could arguably claim that it can't be offset against tax / business expense.


The point is that you only claim the proportion of the cost that is used for business, so you claim the VAT on, say, 25% of the broadband cost though you don't claim at all in respect of the entertainment cost.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 23-Dec-18 20:21:37
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: broadbandjockey] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the various replies.

The key point is that PlusNet's residential T&C's allow some home working though they don't provide VAT invoices.

To get a VAT invoice you need a business product though with that you cannot get the entertainment packages.

So to get both VAT invoices and entertainment packages you need to separate connections even though you will only use one at a time - totally ridiculous!

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User Rastus
(experienced) Mon 24-Dec-18 09:29:28
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 50pence:
Thanks for the various replies.

The key point is that PlusNet's residential T&C's allow some home working though they don't provide VAT invoices.

To get a VAT invoice you need a business product though with that you cannot get the entertainment packages.

So to get both VAT invoices and entertainment packages you need to separate connections even though you will only use one at a time - totally ridiculous!


Not ridiculous IMHO - sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it!

You want an entertainment package - get a residential service and pay the VAT like most of us who aren't able to claim VAT back. Even if we use only 1MB per month we still have to pay the VAT, so why shouldn't you?

Get over it!

Edit: I forgot to mention, PlusNet are unlikely to know you're using your residential service for business unless you tell them!

FTTP 80/20 Mbps

Edited by Rastus (Mon 24-Dec-18 09:32:13)

Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Mon 24-Dec-18 11:02:00
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
See the Ts&Cs I posted - yes a sole trader is a business and PlusNet Ts&Cs specifically exclude this usage from their consumer products.


Plusnet's T&Cs do not trump the law.

Worse than this, just because a business is paying for a connection does not mean it is used for business purposes. For example, my business might provide broadband connections to low income households. The use of the connection is not business use.

Further, if I don't want to be tied to PN, I can sign up to their broadband as a business user registered for VAT, then when I want out, demand VAT invoices. I might be breaching their T&Cs but if they don't supply me a VAT invoice, they are breaking the law. I think the latter is more serious.

What would they do? Terminate my contract? Seems an easy way to get broadband on a shorter term. They would still legally need to supply me VAT invoices for the intervening time. They could chase me for damages I guess, but they have a legal duty to mitigate their own losses, and the loss of my custom would be entirely of their own choosing so real damages would be zero.

AAISP do the same thing with VAT invoices. To me it's sharp practice, if not a blatantly dishonest move.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 24-Dec-18 11:44:56
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by nemeth782:
In reply to a post by ian72:
See the Ts&Cs I posted - yes a sole trader is a business and PlusNet Ts&Cs specifically exclude this usage from their consumer products.
Plusnet's T&Cs do not trump the law.
Neither do you. As follows:-
Worse than this, just because a business is paying for a connection does not mean it is used for business purposes.
In which case you could not claim the Vat anyway.
For example, my business might provide broadband connections to low income households. The use of the connection is not business use.
What would it be then? Also, quite apart from whatever Plusnetís Business connection T & Cs say about unofficial reselling, how would your business make a profit? The logistics would make it almost if not completely impossible.

If you were giving this service free to these low income households, what rights would they have if you defaulted for any reason? What would your business T & Cs be, and how well would they stand up in court? Contract Law is a highly technical subject in its own right. Would you register as a charity? The Charity Commissioners might want rather a lot of information from you. Another very complex legal topic. As for Vat and charities, a legal nightmare.
A VAT-registered charity can reclaim all the input tax it is charged on purchases which directly relate to taxable goods or services it sells. A charity that is not VAT registered will not be able to recover the VAT it is charged on standard-rated or reduced-rated goods it buys from VAT-registered businesses.
And so on and so on with your further non-realistic fantasy scenarios. Iím bored dissecting them.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Mon 24-Dec-18 12:35:58
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You're right, you can't claim the VAT back in that circumstance, but that's irrelevant to the fact that VAT registered businesses are legally obligated to supply VAT invoices to VAT registered customers - even if they can't claim it back.

The example I gave from the top of my head was based on the Becta Home Access program - https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/201011021... , which Comet were one of the suppliers for. I worked for them back then and we did provide internet access to low income households. And yes, Comet went bust, and yes, they had no rights when Comet went bust, but that's not relevant to the fact that the service provider had to provide us VAT invoices.

Anyway, my core point is that yes, a business on a PN residential service is breaking their T&Cs, but that's a separate issue from PN breaking the law by refusing to provide a VAT invoice.
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Mon 24-Dec-18 12:46:13
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
People have been moaning about VAT invoices not being given for residential accounts for years.

Has it not occurred to you that if your arguments had any substance someone would have forced Plusnet, BT or AAISP to change that policy by now?

jelv

AAISP November 2016
(Previous ISP Plusnet November 2001 to October 2016) Why I left Plusnet
Telephone rental: Pulse8
Standard User TinyMongomery
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 24-Dec-18 22:10:18
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
I believe that your analysis is flawed. Plusnet are not selling the service to a VAT registered business but to a private individual. They don't sell their residential services to businesses. Therefore they are under no obligation to provide a VAT invoice.

The fact that the private individual is letting a business have some use of the service is not the responsibility of Plusnet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not to his own facts.
Standard User sheephouse
(member) Tue 25-Dec-18 00:46:04
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: TinyMongomery] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet will provide VAT invoices to non-VAT registered customers - as long as they pay the business tariff. Whether or not the customer is VAT registered has no effect on whether or not Plusnet provide a VAT invoice, so they are not insisting on exactly following their legal obligations, they are just being awkward.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 25-Dec-18 01:02:30
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
That isnít the OPís problem. He wants Vat invoices because he is Vat registered, and is prepared to pay the business tariff. But he also wants the entertainment add on, which he canít have on the business tariff.

On the residential tariff he can have the entertainment package, but not Vat invoices.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 25-Dec-18 01:04:14)

Standard User sheephouse
(member) Tue 25-Dec-18 23:23:35
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I have a business account too, so can't have entertainment packages (but I couldn't anyway as Plusnet won't sell entertainment packages on ADSL). But the point is there is no reason not to provide VAT invoices on residential accounts other than being awkward for the sake of it.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 25-Dec-18 23:37:17
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
It's a marketing strategy. Provide Vat invoices on residential packages and they pretty well stop selling the higher profit business packages. But don't gain sufficiently more customers to compensate for the loss of profit, and the people wishing to do that are almost certainly high bandwidth users as well.

It makes complete sense from a business point of view.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
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Standard User ppppenguin99
(member) Wed 26-Dec-18 07:46:03
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Look at it the other way round for a moment. If you're a VAT registered business and want to use a domestic package what will it cost you? Such a business is likely to be a sole trader working from domestic premises.

Let's say that the annual cost of a domestic pacakage is £480 and that all of it can be regarded as a business expense. This isn't all 100% accurate but good enough for this illustration.

If you can reclaimn VAT that brings cost down to £400. Then if you're paying tax at basic 20% rate the net cost is £320. if you can't reclaim VAT the next cost is £384. An extra cost of £64. Annoying but not calamitous. If you assume part of the package is for domestic use then the gap reduces. If you're paying 40% tax likewise.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 26-Dec-18 10:57:18
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ppppenguin99] [link to this post]
 
I was and I did, after I closed my offices.

However, when it comes to being less than 100% accurate over your Vat as per your example, that would be a calculated risk. Falsified Vat returns and Self-Assessment tax returns are not a good idea.

Then of course you would also have to handle line rental and mobile phone costs correctly.

Iím years out of date now on the detailed regulations but they used to be quite tight. What I do know is one iof my customers got 18 months for (admittedly much greater) Vat fraud. Fortunately his son was able to continue running the business while he was inside.

If on the other hand you could indeed claim all of it as a business expense, in this day and age that would probably mean you have a second line as well for the OPís domestic use and entertainment package. Thus defeating his object smile.

Anyway, this thread is not basically about handling oneís Vat legitimately. The OP and others are simply objecting to Plusnet and other ISPsí commercial practices and terms. My post that you replied to pointed out that those practices and terms make perfect business sense. You havenít addressed it at all wink.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
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Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 26-Dec-18 11:03:07
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: ppppenguin99] [link to this post]
 
Thinking a bit further into it, I wonder if deep in the Vat Regulations appertaining to provision of communications services the providers are prevented from supplying Vat invoices on non-business accounts. Specifically to help prevent what HMRC could legitimately regard as this form of abuse.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
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Standard User sheephouse
(member) Wed 26-Dec-18 12:19:21
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Well I changed from a Plusnet residential account to a Plusnet Business account partly because I work from home which is against the T&Cs for a residential account, but mainly because the Business account was 30% cheaper! If the business account was more expensive then there could be some justification, but much of the time there is no difference in price, and at times the business accounts are significantly cheaper than the best deal an existing residential customer can get.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 28-Dec-18 16:36:28
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 50pence:
Thanks for the replies all!

My perspective is that any VAT registered supplier should provide a VAT invoice upon request. Furthermore it costs no more to generate a PDF featuring VAT than it does one that doesn't feature VAT.

I also don't believe that PlusNet are correct in putting 'business use only' in their T&Cs, it's a restrictive trading practice, it's not their business what the customer uses the connection for (unless it's illegal) and a large proportion all BB customers will use their connection for business use and either their employer or they themselves maybe VAT registered.

However if the business products were competitively priced and well featured it would not be a problem. Though a business product offers no advantages over a residential product, it will cost me more extra than I can reclaim in VAT and does not feature the entertainment packages.

They either need to offer VAT invoices on residential products or entertainment packages on competitively priced business products.

There's also a loyalty issue here, I've been loyal for nearly 15 years, when I signed up they just did broadband and provided VAT invoices as required.


The business product is different in that it allows you to use it for commercial purposes, the difference is in the legal terms, it doesnt matter if its the same on a technical level.

Like how you often see a consumer version of software and commercial version, may have same feature sets, but the former is often way cheaper maybe even free, with the caveat its for personal use only.

I am a sole trader, and I also use my connection for consumer use, so I am in this category I suppose, I often buy residential broadband products but sometimes have used business one's.

Imagine if my isp (sky) flipped out over this, I would just say well since you dont have a business product I will just leave then, I expect they would say they suddenly dont mind, the t&c's is really just to cover their back so when there is an outage their backs are covered when the inevitable "but I lost £5000 today in revenue" arrives.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:33:32
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by nemeth782:
In reply to a post by ian72:
See the Ts&Cs I posted - yes a sole trader is a business and PlusNet Ts&Cs specifically exclude this usage from their consumer products.


Further, if I don't want to be tied to PN, I can sign up to their broadband as a business user registered for VAT, then when I want out, demand VAT invoices. I might be breaching their T&Cs but if they don't supply me a VAT invoice, they are breaking the law. I think the latter is more serious.


Though if you sign up as a business user they WILL give you VAT invoices, though you won't be able to access any entertainment packages.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:36:06
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jelv:
People have been moaning about VAT invoices not being given for residential accounts for years.

Has it not occurred to you that if your arguments had any substance someone would have forced Plusnet, BT or AAISP to change that policy by now?


Though PN have provided VAT invoices until recently. They threatened to withdraw them from residential customers some years ago though backed down then, which is for me another issue, I feel that by withdrawing them now they have reneged on a previous promise.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:37:45
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
That isnít the OPís problem. He wants Vat invoices because he is Vat registered, and is prepared to pay the business tariff. But he also wants the entertainment add on, which he canít have on the business tariff.

On the residential tariff he can have the entertainment package, but not Vat invoices.


Exactly.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:39:13
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sheephouse:
Well I changed from a Plusnet residential account to a Plusnet Business account partly because I work from home which is against the T&Cs for a residential account, but mainly because the Business account was 30% cheaper! If the business account was more expensive then there could be some justification, but much of the time there is no difference in price, and at times the business accounts are significantly cheaper than the best deal an existing residential customer can get.


For me the like-for-like business package is about £10 a month more.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:41:44
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Thinking a bit further into it, I wonder if deep in the Vat Regulations appertaining to provision of communications services the providers are prevented from supplying Vat invoices on non-business accounts. Specifically to help prevent what HMRC could legitimately regard as this form of abuse.


I don't think so as there are many areas where you can claim VAT on the proportion of the product ort service that is used for business use, i.e. petrol/diesel, utilities, mobile phone services etc.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:45:22
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: Rastus] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rastus:
In reply to a post by 50pence:
Thanks for the various replies.

The key point is that PlusNet's residential T&C's allow some home working though they don't provide VAT invoices.

To get a VAT invoice you need a business product though with that you cannot get the entertainment packages.

So to get both VAT invoices and entertainment packages you need to separate connections even though you will only use one at a time - totally ridiculous!


Not ridiculous IMHO - sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it!

You want an entertainment package - get a residential service and pay the VAT like most of us who aren't able to claim VAT back. Even if we use only 1MB per month we still have to pay the VAT, so why shouldn't you?

Get over it!


That's ridiculous! The point is that anyone can claim the proportion of the service they use for business as a business expense, and if you're VAT registered you can reclaim the VAT quite legitimately - as when you invoice for the product or service you provide you are conversely having to charge VAT.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet
Standard User 50pence
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:58:57
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Re: VAT Invoices versus Entertainment Packages


[re: 50pence] [link to this post]
 
By the way I have reached a compromise with PlusNet, they insist that they cannot provide VAT invoices so instead have offered a very small discount, so they're clearly not unhappy with the fact that I am using the service for some business use.

Paperless office - Never! | Wireless home - April 2004.

ISP: plusnet

Edited by 50pence (Sat 29-Dec-18 14:59:23)

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