PCP Merge / FTTC From Different PCP?

Hi All,

Probably one for the OR guys on the board but any words of wisdom welcome.

Anyone know if BT run tie cables from one PCP to the FTTC cabinet adjacent to another or reconcile PCPs by merging them?

BT likes to keep the link cables to under 25m length, so chance of two PCP in that distance is small. Possibly if one is now 90% empty due to an industrial estate/flats being demolished, they might take the chance to tidy up things in the area.

don't really understand the question but I have seen two pcps next to each other get two different fttc cabinets, I have not seen two pcps share a fttc cabinet. Nothing technically impossible about sharing but I doubt it will happen as it halves capacity.

A complete reload of an average pcp on the fly, ie with live circuits and theoretically no customer loss of service takes me and my 'business partner' about 2 weeks. So merging two pcps together into one happy bundle would take us nigh on 4 weeks and no obvious advantage. In fact jumper congestion would be horrific. Probably why we ain't done one.

Edited by partial (Wed 11-Apr-12 20:40:43)

I wanted to follow on from this - any idea just why BT have built their network as they have in an area I'm trying to help get FTTC? Yes bits were built at different times, of course, but it's just weird and, thanks to this weird construction, none of the PCPs are considered 'viable' for FTTC.

Here's postcodes the OR document confirms are fed by each of 3 PCPs, along with the PCPs themselves' locations.

For the curious these are on the Hunslet, MYHLT, exchange.

PCP 82: http://g.co/maps/zzmbe
PCP 90: http://g.co/maps/xwtbv
PCP 91: http://g.co/maps/dbjem

PCP locations:

82: http://g.co/maps/a52xw
90: http://g.co/maps/ay75c
91: http://g.co/maps/st8r7

Que?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

BT likes to keep the link cables to under 25m length

I can understand that the link cable should be as short as possible, so I was quite surprised to see a planning application (conservation area) for an FTTC cab nearby giving the link cable length as 79m link

Also, there are two PCP cabs in my area that seem to be connected to the same FTTC cab, but the two PCPs are adjacent and have the same number on them so maybe BT Openreach class them as one logical cab despite being two physical cabs? link

They like to keep them less that 50m apart but there is scope for them to be up to 100m apart in exeptional circumstances.
I would guess that of those 2 cabinets, the one on the right was replaced by the one on the left and is now probably an empty shell.

Edited by Ribble (Sat 14-Apr-12 14:58:12)

Who told you that none of the PCP's are considered viable for FTTC?

All 3 cabs are in new builds, these are generally missed on the first wave of cabinets, ive see alot of new estates have their cabs planned for in a later plhase usually about 2/3 phases later.

If and when the next spreadsheet leaks i would expect to see those 3 pcp's in the plans.

Edited by ccxo (Sat 14-Apr-12 18:53:33)

In reply to a post by ccxo:

Who told you that none of the PCP's are considered viable for FTTC?

Openreach's NGA Programme Office. Insufficient number of connected lines to make the commercials work.

So the new build estate is it fully sold/occupied or not?

Only BT phone lines in the estate?

In reply to a post by ccxo:

So the new build estate is it fully sold/occupied or not?

Only BT phone lines in the estate?

It's not fully built yet, there are only BT phone lines in the estate, it is almost fully occupied, Openreach inform it won't be commercially viable even when construction is complete, basically due to the moronic way they've built it.

Openreach have no plans to do it, neither now nor expecting to as an infill. I have already spoken in depth with the NGA Programme Office on this, hence why I was asking about PCP merge / FTTC serving multiple PCPs along with queries on the network construction rather than asking if anyone thought it might be done as an infill later on.

With new builds I think Openreach often makes various offers for the price of the work and solutions, and at a guess developers go for the cheapest, not considering broadband implications.

As an estate I'd have thought a low hanging target for BDUK, as their extra money is probably all thats needed. In short internally Openreach will have a good idea of the end-game for its roll-out now.

its the problem of central intervention into a market that is also active. If there was 100% market failure in the UK then might be simpler.

Hi,

We had this issue - 100 properties on one PCP - "Not economic to upgrade", started a campaign:

http://www.coton-park-broadband.co.uk/home/latest-ne...

And got it on the rollout plan in 3 months. Now have 80/20 service compared to 2 - 3Mb before.

How many properties per cab do you have?

Edited by TechGuyUK (Tue 17-Apr-12 11:38:23)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

With new builds I think Openreach often makes various offers for the price of the work and solutions, and at a guess developers go for the cheapest, not considering broadband implications.

As an estate I'd have thought a low hanging target for BDUK, as their extra money is probably all thats needed. In short internally Openreach will have a good idea of the end-game for its roll-out now.

its the problem of central intervention into a market that is also active. If there was 100% market failure in the UK then might be simpler.

We're taking pains to ensure Openreach are a last resort as far as BDUK funding goes.

The product they'll deliver is what they should have all along, and they'll inevitably be sniffing around for more subsidy to complete the full FTTP network that will, at some point, be required.

Openreach incompetence and recalcitrance is causing this to become an 'issue'. Loads of conflicting messages have been received from them, that's when they actually supply any substantial answers, we have a strong suspicion that they'll be wanting BDUK funding to pay for the vast majority of costs taking on none or very little of the costs themselves while taking the profits.

With that in mind I've engaged Virgin Media, an independent FTTP operator and an independent wireless operator also.

Openreach shouldn't get a penny of taxpayers' money to do this, it's not in the middle of nowhere, it's difficult due to their incompetence, they deliver a substandard service knowingly and expect other people to pay to fix it - not good enough and not to be rewarded.

So far of the announced spending its 50/50 between Openreach and the BDUK/Local Authority money.

What I will say is this, any area that does not use Openreach, needs to ensure that Sky, TalkTalk and Virgin Media are on board at the retail level. UK population seems to have a strong brand loyalty, not talking those like yourself who are pushing things forward, but the average consumer who moans about their broadband, but never changes provider.

Making good progress actually, I'm hopeful that as a thank you to BT for bad network build and recalcitrance over FTTC they'll be losing the vast majority of 1200 homes worth of landline and DSL revenue, or to put it another way they lose the total outlay on FTTC that would have been required within 6 months.

Wouldn't surprise in the slightest if they suddenly take an interest if an official announcement is made.

It has happened before, get a compitor to deliver a service and BT will spring into action, Iwade in Kent is a recent example.

In reply to a post by ccxo:

It has happened before, get a compitor to deliver a service and BT will spring into action, Iwade in Kent is a recent example.

Indeed it has, that's the plan.

find it mad that BT do not just provide one cab for the whole Plot of land, makes FTTC later on more an option as BT and easier to install more lines as houses are built

BT can still charge the Land developer the cost to install the lines later on as they would any way, but allowing short cuts by installing an Small PCN that's very likely never going to get FTTC is poor

what has been done there its an mess as its more work for BT to do, what they have done there and made an issue with having 20-30 houses never get FTTC

In reply to a post by leexgx:

BT can still charge the Land developer the cost to install the lines later on as they would any way

The developer does not get charged, they actually get paid by Openreach to install onsite duct and cabling at a price per plot agreed with the House Builders Federation. Offsite network reinforcement is free to the developer up to iirc £3500 per plot.

I would imagine that Openreach are installing low capacity cabs on new developments with a view to future fibre development after the development is adopted and the no dig period has expired.

So a window for OLOs and Ignition's DIY deployment exists and is ripe for exploitation.

Developers like to exploit residuals nowadays be it fees for verge and open space maintenance, local CATV or local private gas mains.

My business plan on a DIY system would be looking for payback within the adoption and no dig timeline, would be hand in hand with the developer and would be looking to exploit any developer installed local CATV ducting.

Edited by partial (Thu 26-Apr-12 20:58:23)

We're focussing on Virgin Media and they are doing extensive costings on the estates.

If that fails we're looking into an 802.1n Wifi mesh, backhauled via business FTTC/P which will be available in a few months off estate.

Option 1 would be preferable, option 2 will be very time consuming and involve such joys as getting blocks of public IP addresses and getting an FTTC/P provider who'll give BGP.

I am doing just this. I get blocks of ip addresses from my upstream provider and deliver via wireless. not running bgp but my provider will do it. pm me if you want a couple of providers who will supply fttx with bgp.
however they are not cheap and back haul is expensive.

Meeting tomorrow with rep from Openreach, local MP and a few residents.

At least 1 cabinet has since become 'viable' and is awaiting an installation date.

Of 10 cabinets discussed 1 is to be enabled initially with 4 further cabinets following in the infill programme shortly afterwards.

5 down, 5 to go...

After all this everyone on Hunslet cabinet 82 has been seeing nightly outages, blip on landline, broadband down for hours.

Openreach vans have been in the area, well, nightly, working on PCP 82 and PCP 91.

An OR engineer said they were 'rerouting' the lines.

Apparently PCP merging isn't unheard of, Openreach have realised that, in some cases, it can be cheaper for them to merge PCPs they shouldn't have built in the first place and deploy the FTTC than to deploy to smaller cabinets, even with the BDUK funding.