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Standard User tblackwood
(newbie) Tue 12-Mar-13 22:23:23
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Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[link to this post]
 
I joined TBB as I recently came up against an issue when I attempted to rely on the DSRs to cancel a broadband order before it was activated. The ISP told me I could not do this as they had already begun work on the line. This surprised me as I was given an "activation date" when placing my order which was more than a week away. When I tried to cancel a few days later, well before my activation date, I was told that they had already begun to perform services.

Having done some research on how ADSL is ordered and provisioned on the line, this makes sense as the ISP will incur wholesale costs. What was unacceptable to me was that I was not told of this in pre-sales or at the point of concluding the contract, nor was I notified at any point prior to attempting to cancel. The ISP also told me that the Office of Fair Trading had determined broadband and similar telecoms services to be exempt from DSRs.

I was told that because of this, cancellation may not be possible and even if it was I would incur a charge. I consulted the documentation provided by the OFT and while there are indeed provisions which cover a supplier starting performance within the initial 7 day period which then affects cancellation rights, this appears only to apply when the consumer is notified of this at or promptly following the conclusion of the contract.

I posted on the ISP specific thread but would like to raise this as a general point in the "Regulation" section as I believe it may be of interest. Apologies if this is considered "cross posting" however the ISP thread discussion has become "he said she said" with the supplier.

Here is the OFT guidance I referred to, and of course I have also looked at both the EC Directive on Protection of Consumers in Distance Sales and the UK instruments implementing this community directive in domestic law.

Edit: link to oft http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-custo...

Edited by tblackwood (Tue 12-Mar-13 22:26:08)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 12-Mar-13 22:48:55
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: tblackwood] [link to this post]
 
The right to cancel does not apply to goods for everyday consumption; you consume BB every day don't you? wink

No, I agree that you had every right to cancel during the normal cooling-off period, cuz the iSP concerned hadn't informed you in writing that you didn't. Conversely, you could have requested that the service, including incurring extra costs by provisioning ancillary services, didn't commence until after the normal cooling-off period.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 13-Mar-13 08:51:21
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: tblackwood] [link to this post]
 
link to the thread ? or to the ISP website. I know some do cover this matter on their web site.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics


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Standard User tblackwood
(newbie) Wed 13-Mar-13 12:03:26
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
link to the thread ? or to the ISP website. I know some do cover this matter on their web site.


Link ( Xilo)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
The right to cancel does not apply to goods for everyday consumption; you consume BB every day don't you? wink

No, I agree that you had every right to cancel during the normal cooling-off period, cuz the iSP concerned hadn't informed you in writing that you didn't. Conversely, you could have requested that the service, including incurring extra costs by provisioning ancillary services, didn't commence until after the normal cooling-off period.


Well I think broadband is a service rather than a good and while I use it every day I certainly don't consume it in the process! wink
I agree with your view although I can see the ISPs side too - so much of life is in how we choose to perceive a set of circumstances - the ISP could consider this a very cheap lesson in how to keep customers informed by providing the appropriate information as required by law.
Standard User Stanman_24
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-Mar-13 23:28:00
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
the DSR act is applicable for mobile phone contracts when bought over the phone / internet, it applies to most things infact

When retailers inform you that the DSR is not applicable then they are sadly mistaken, they cannot enforce you to exclude yourself from your own protective legislation as phones4u do with handset upgrades for example

SOTV KRO BCFC smile

Edited by Stanman_24 (Tue 19-Mar-13 23:29:50)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 19-Mar-13 23:49:02
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: Stanman_24] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Stanman_24:
the DSR act ... it applies to most things in fact
Yes the DSR apply but the Right to Cancel doesn't always. What's this then?
When customers do not have a right to cancel

Unless you have agreed that they can, your customers cannot cancel if the order is for

* services once you have started the service, provided you had the customer’s agreement to start the service before the end of the usual cancellation period and you have provided the customer with the required written information before you started the service, including information that the cancellation rights would end as soon as you started the service
That's what OP is arguing!

EDIT: Your comparison with mobile phone contracts is invalid, cuz, I think, you are referring to the purchase of goods, namely the phone, being a major part of the contract.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 19-Mar-13 23:54:28)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 20-Mar-13 00:23:52
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
...That's what OP is arguing!


Seems like the British adversarial justice system has spilt over into this forum with the plaintiff making repeated claims against the defendant's actions (or in-actions?)

Unless the plaintiff can make accusations under oath then I think the whole sorry saga of impatience should be ignored...
Standard User grahammm
(member) Fri 22-Mar-13 19:00:02
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: tblackwood] [link to this post]
 
Surely service does not start until your line is connected to the DSLAM and is available for a router/modem to sync. Is your situation really any different to purchasing goods which the seller does not actually have in stock (very common for distance sales) and has to order from the wholesaler/manufacturer/distributor? In such cases, that the seller has placed the order on his supplier does not remove your right to cancel. So why should the ISP placing the order on BT terminate your right to cancel?
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 23-Mar-13 11:18:08
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: grahammm] [link to this post]
 
Goods and services are fundamentally different in that ordering a service like a broadband connection isn't about a high value thing being shipped with the thing representing the bulk of the costs and being available to sell to others if cancelled. The law and rules for goods and services are distinct.

When you place an order for a service many parts of the service occur before the sync becomes available and hence costs are incurred. There is no B2B distance selling regulation or equivalent, so the ISP can't recover costs they incurred. The DSR covers this providing the consumer has agreed to it (knowingly or otherwise, eg in terms and conditions they didn't read)...

Unless you have agreed that they can, your consumers cannot
cancel if the order is for:

• services where you have had the consumer’s agreement
to start the service before the end of the usual cancellation
period and you have provided the consumer with the
required written information before you start the service,
including information that the cancellation rights will end
as soon as you start the service


As an example, AAISP have in their terms and conditions :-

Once you have placed an order for the service, as a consumer, the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 permit you to cancel that order, with no penalty, within 7 working days of placing the order. However, this only applies up until the point we have provided the service, which may be before 7 working days from placing your order.

In the case of broadband orders (new or migration) we consider one of the services we are providing is one of arranging for broadband to be installed and as such that service is provided once we have submitted the necessary orders to our circuit suppliers (typically BT plc) to connect your line and they have accepted that order from us. This is indicated by a COMMITTED status shown on our order tracking web site. This will usually be within a few hours of placing your order.


In other words AAISP have provided a service by placing the order well within the 7 days so subsequent cancellation would be retrospective and outside the DSR because...

Different rules apply to services where the consumer agrees
that the service starts before the usual cancellation period
expires. These are:

• where you have supplied the required durable information
before the service starts and the consumer agrees to the
service starting before the end of the usual cancellation
period, their cancellation rights will end when performance
of the service starts


The OP's case involved the latter bit ("durable information") but I'm addressing the general point here.

http://aaisp.net.uk/legal-terms-services.html

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/g...

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User aiza
(newbie) Tue 03-Sep-13 11:23:02
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Re: Distance Selling Regulations and Broadband


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
That's a lot of info. Thumbs up to the person who researched this.

aiza
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