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Standard User steve1873
(newbie) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:18:42
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Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ago!


[link to this post]
 
I migrated from BT Yahoo Broadband to Sky Broadband in March of 2009.

On Monday this week I received my latest quarterly bank statement, which unfortunately I usually put in the drawer without going through the transaction details list. However, on this occasion, due to a perceived problem with my wages at end of last month, I decided to have a scroll through all the transactions. To my horror and bemusement on the 27th of June was a Direct Debit withdrawal of £30.63. As I checked back this was a recurring charge on or around the 27th of each month.

I immediately sent an e-mail to BT customer complaints and to their credit a rep phoned me within about an hour of sending the e-mail. He checked my details and informed me he would need to make a few calls and would get back to me within the hour. He did so, telling me that he had spoken to someone in billing and that they had conceded their had been a problem with their cancellation system - something to do with it being on an older system. He then said that someone from billing would call in 24-48 hours to discuss the matter and resolve the issue.

As yet, over 48 hours later I have received no phone call. He did say that I was to ring back and speak to him if I hadn't heard anything by Thursday which I will do tomorrow. He didn't, however tell me that I would (as I am obviously going to demand) receive a full refund, which by my calculations would be approximately £900 - 30 months at approximately £30 (variances due to changes to VAT etc I think).

Just wondering has anyone experienced anything similar?

I admit that I should have noticed this earlier by checking my statements, but I check my balance regularly and so saw no need for further checking when everything seemed normal. I have learned from that mistake obviously, but surely BT cannot/ will not try to get out of refunding me the full amount?

If they do try to get out of a full refund, what are my options from a legal perspective?

Any reassurances or advice much appreciated,

Steve.
Standard User john2007
(legend) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:29:34
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
It depends if you cancelled the broadband contract or not. What process did you use to move from BT? I.e. did you use a MAC (migration authorization code). In that system the gaining ISP is meant to notify the losing ISP.
Standard User steve1873
(newbie) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:33:38
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by john2007:
It depends if you cancelled the broadband contract or not. What process did you use to move from BT? I.e. did you use a MAC (migration authorization code). In that system the gaining ISP is meant to notify the losing ISP.


Yes, I used a MAC code and after I passed it on to Sky, the process went smoothly. I was and still am led to believe that after given the MAC to Sky the entire following procedure was automated.


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:35:12
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by john2007:
It depends if you cancelled the broadband contract or not. What process did you use to move from BT? I.e. did you use a MAC (migration authorization code). In that system the gaining ISP is meant to notify the losing ISP.
Openreach are supposed to do the notification John. The gaining ISP has no way to know the losing ISP, unless you tell them when signing up, which is not obligatory.

However, your main point stands. If he didn't give notice, he could have a problem. But from the opening post there doesn't seem to be one except BT moving slowly, so I'm not sure what he is worried about at this stage.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User john2007
(legend) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:49:23
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
There are quite a few stories of the losing ISP not being notified when a migration has taken place, which is why it's a good idea to notify the losing ISP yourself as well.

Given that you used a MAC I can't see any problem getting your money back from BT (assuming there is not some legal limit on how many years back the debt may be).
Standard User steve1873
(newbie) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:49:57
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by john2007:
It depends if you cancelled the broadband contract or not. What process did you use to move from BT? I.e. did you use a MAC (migration authorization code). In that system the gaining ISP is meant to notify the losing ISP.
Openreach are supposed to do the notification John. The gaining ISP has no way to know the losing ISP, unless you tell them when signing up, which is not obligatory.

However, your main point stands. If he didn't give notice, he could have a problem. But from the opening post there doesn't seem to be one except BT moving slowly, so I'm not sure what he is worried about at this stage.


The worry is that clearly BT have stolen, or if that seems harsh, misappropriated approximately £900 from me, for a service that was migrated away from using the proper procedure, and despite being informed of this on Monday I have not yet been informed whether or not I will be receiving a refund.

I appreciate the feedback regarding how the migration notification process works Roberto. As I said in original post any information regarding this is very much appreciated. As far as you saying if I didn't give notice - I called them up to request a MAC and I was led to believe that was the only thing required of me. Are you saying that I had to then actually call BT back upon given the MAC to new ISP informing them I was cancelling?
Standard User john2007
(legend) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:54:02
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yes, my mistake, as you say it's the job of Openreach to notify the losing ISP.
Standard User john2007
(legend) Wed 20-Jul-11 18:57:57
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
The problem arises as just because a MAC is issued it doesn't mean it will be used. i.e. people can intend to migrate, get a MAC, and then change their mind and decide to stay with the original ISP. The ISP can not stop service (and consequently billing) until they are told the user has actually migrated.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 19:00:33
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
You probably have emails with the bills. Your BT email address they went to will still be there.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User JohnR
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 20-Jul-11 19:26:17
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
Did you not think when you left BT to contact your bank and cancel the Direct debit......

NEVER EVER RELY ON ANYONE ELSE to confirm anything is cancelled.......

I just can't understand how you can go that long without checking a bank statement.... It should at worst be done on a monthly basis, even better daily/weekly. With internet access you have no excuse for taking 5 min to check it.....

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Standard User broadband66
(experienced) Wed 20-Jul-11 19:35:45
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
"and that they had conceded their had been a problem with their cancellation system - something to do with it being on an older system."

According to this statement you should be lucky and will get your money back. MAC just gives the receiving ISP the ok to switch to them otherwise unscrupulous ISPs could just transfer (can't remember technical term) users.

Always cancel SO / DD and inform company that payment would be due to.

Same with switching electricity and gas providers. The new company should do the informing but best to get a final and LAST bill.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 19:59:18
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: JohnR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by JohnR:
I just can't understand how you can go that long without checking a bank statement.... It should at worst be done on a monthly basis, even better daily/weekly
Especially the first month after leaving an ISP that has a D/D authority.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User JohnR
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 20-Jul-11 20:37:07
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
MAC just gives the receiving ISP the ok to switch to them otherwise unscrupulous ISPs could just transfer (can't remember technical term) users.


Given that OP moved to Sky its a good chance that it was to LLU and as such does not really need a mac.

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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 20:57:12
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: JohnR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by JohnR:
Given that OP moved to Sky its a good chance that it was to LLU and as such does not really need a mac.
Although technically you are correct, there's a lot of controversy about that. Mainly on two counts.

1) Re: A Cease charge, (OK so far this isn't an issue here), will not be raised if:-
The End User line has been migrated to an LLU operator (either SMPF or MPF) using the published migration process.
What that means is unclear as we don't have access to the publication, but it has certainly been the case a few times in the past where a Cease Charge has been erroneously raised for whatever reason. Having obtained a MAC is useful evidence that it wasn't the customer at fault.

2) Re: Most ISPs take the date of request of a MAC as the start of any required notice period if the customer does then migrate out soon after. If you don't ask for one then inevitably the notice period will start at the earliest the day of migration, and some ISPs have been known to claim it doesn't start until formally given, even if the user has not been on the service for a considerable period.

A MAC should always be requested, and submitted to the gaining ISP if possible.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:20:38
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: JohnR] [link to this post]
 
Back in 2009 they were not using full LLU so a MAC process would have been used.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:20:38
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Good point, and even now it isn't full LLU if Sky Line Rental isn't taken, so I assume a MAC would be required for that anyway. But that's not really relevant, though your point is.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User epyon
(regular) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:31:01
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
Though this is late in saying i always cancel my DD when i leave an ISP

if they have any issues they can take a card/cheque payment later.

BE*Unlimited
My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by epyon (Wed 20-Jul-11 22:31:22)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Wed 20-Jul-11 23:56:57
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by steve1873:
Yes, I used a MAC code and after I passed it on to Sky, the process went smoothly.
But did you formally give notice to cancel your BT service in writing as required by §21 of their General Terms and Conditions?

I strongly agree with the view that you have been very negligent in not checking your bank statement regularly & not noticing that eventually £900 had gone missing. If you consider such a sum so trivial, you might as well chuck it this way for our advice smile

BT have the upper hand here as you have not abided by their T&Cs and so it is entirely in their gift as to whether you get any or all of your money back. So you had better treat them politely!

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 15.6 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 16.8 Meg Untweaked WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 21-Jul-11 07:39:10)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:43:59
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, I didn't see you post about getting and using a MAC, somehow I missed it.

What you had to do, as someone has posted, is check what is said in the T & Cs, never mind what you are told on the phone. But I don't think that is the issue.

As you seem to have realised, if you don't use the MAC then everything carries on as before. Making sure BT were aware you had actually left, (not at the time of submitting the MAC to Sky as migrations often fail after that point), is just a wise thing to do.

I don't know if you have read this page, but it is all covered there, due to this sort of thing happening quite often with several ISPs.

As for the rather strong way you put it, I hope you won't be using that sort of language in the conversations you will have with BT. That will just make people defend their company and colleagues against that accusation, instead of encouraging them to help you out. The person clearly at fault for this going on for more than one month is yourself, and getting stroppy on the phone is always counter-productive wherever the fault lies.

It seems a simple system failure happened. You also seem to have had a helpful person who suggested you ring him on Thursday if the slow-moving cogs of BT had not turned. In your position, for the sake of my blood pressure I would have done exactly that rather than open this thread and start an inevitable discussion of all the doomsday scenarios possible.

There is no reason yet to suggest you have a problem getting a refund, but I recommend you don't talk about "stealing" or "misappropriation" in discussions with BT staff. It started with a system or clerical error and the fact the effect has lasted this long is not relevant.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
ISP Representative BT_Care
(isp) Fri 22-Jul-11 13:41:56
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
Hi Steve1873,

I would like to take a look at your old account to see what is going on. Please could you send me in your details using http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950

Once I have that information I will look into this and reply to you directly.

Cheers

Paddy,
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User steve1873
(newbie) Mon 25-Jul-11 15:54:14
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: BT_Care] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BT_Care:
Hi Steve1873,

I would like to take a look at your old account to see what is going on. Please could you send me in your details using http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950

Once I have that information I will look into this and reply to you directly.

Cheers

Paddy,


Thanks Paddy, I will do so. I spoke with a gentleman from customer services called Aiden last Monday (18/7). I was told to expect a call from the billing department at some point within 48 hours. I believe I missed a call at home and when I try to call back I am being met with an automated message telling me that BT have tried contacting me and will do so again. However, I am obviously anxious to get this resolved as soon as possible. Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Steve.
Standard User steve1873
(newbie) Mon 25-Jul-11 16:13:52
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Sorry, I didn't see you post about getting and using a MAC, somehow I missed it.

What you had to do, as someone has posted, is check what is said in the T & Cs, never mind what you are told on the phone. But I don't think that is the issue.

As you seem to have realised, if you don't use the MAC then everything carries on as before. Making sure BT were aware you had actually left, (not at the time of submitting the MAC to Sky as migrations often fail after that point), is just a wise thing to do.

I don't know if you have read this page, but it is all covered there, due to this sort of thing happening quite often with several ISPs.

As for the rather strong way you put it, I hope you won't be using that sort of language in the conversations you will have with BT. That will just make people defend their company and colleagues against that accusation, instead of encouraging them to help you out. The person clearly at fault for this going on for more than one month is yourself, and getting stroppy on the phone is always counter-productive wherever the fault lies.

It seems a simple system failure happened. You also seem to have had a helpful person who suggested you ring him on Thursday if the slow-moving cogs of BT had not turned. In your position, for the sake of my blood pressure I would have done exactly that rather than open this thread and start an inevitable discussion of all the doomsday scenarios possible.

There is no reason yet to suggest you have a problem getting a refund, but I recommend you don't talk about "stealing" or "misappropriation" in discussions with BT staff. It started with a system or clerical error and the fact the effect has lasted this long is not relevant.


You are correct. When I posted using such language, I had just suffered a very stressful day at work, which is no excuse as I can actually understand that it was in all liklihood a very simple system error. And I accept, obviously one which could and should have been discovered by myself much sooner.

I am not looking to place blame on BT as such, and I have faith that this will be resolved. I would like to think that I will be given a refund for the payments taken in error.

I was simply posting looking for some advice and to enquire if anyone else had had any similar experiences (not necessarlly with BT), and not to advertise my foolishness - not cancelling direct debit and not checking full bank statement.

Anyway, thanks for the advice and I will update this with the outcome at some point in future.

Steve.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 25-Jul-11 21:43:59
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
When I posted using such language, I had just suffered a very stressful day at work ....
smile
Understood. I think we've all been there, done that. Just that some posters here seem to have that as a permanent attitude and can't understand why other people don't have the same problems as them in getting helpful responses from suppliers smile.

Anyway, I hope you get this resolved quickly and painlessly.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 25-Jul-11 21:45:39)

Standard User steve1873
(newbie) Wed 27-Jul-11 13:50:49
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: BT_Care] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BT_Care:
Hi Steve1873,

I would like to take a look at your old account to see what is going on. Please could you send me in your details using http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950

Once I have that information I will look into this and reply to you directly.

Cheers

Paddy,


Paddy, would you be able to call me if I PM you my number?

Your assistance would be much appreciated.

Steve.
Standard User steve1873
(newbie) Wed 27-Jul-11 18:12:05
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
Just off the phone with a gentleman from BT who has sorted this out to a very satisfactory outcome. I will receive a full refund.

So if the person that dealt with my situation posts on here, many thanks. Despite the delay (perhaps understandable for various reasons) the staff at BT that I've dealt with have been excellent and will certainly make me consider BT as a company in the future.

Thanks for all the advice and deserved criticism for my own part in the scenario. I have learned my lesson, that's for sure.

Steve.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Wed 27-Jul-11 19:11:56
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
Well done! The correct outcome despite my Devil's Advocate posts grin

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 15.6 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 16.8 Meg Untweaked WBC
Standard User JohnR
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 27-Jul-11 19:57:16
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
Nice to see its all sorted smile

Hat's off all round

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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 27-Jul-11 22:11:03
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
That's great smile.

You can now afford to buy us all a drink.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User orly
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 28-Jul-11 17:23:46
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Re:Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months ag


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
That's how BT works these days. They're really rather good at sorting stuff out once you get through to someone who can actually progress your complaint/issue.

The problem for many is they can't get beyond the sub-continent and go round in circles. If BT sort out this side of the coin they'll be better off for it.

---
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Standard User coolspot
(newbie) Sat 30-Jul-11 08:35:15
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Re: Billing from BT despite cancelling... nearly 30 months a


[re: steve1873] [link to this post]
 
no wonder only 57% of their customers are satisfied. see the results for yourself: Which ISP?

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