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Standard User Daveros
(newbie) Wed 02-May-12 15:40:27
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Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[link to this post]
 
Hi,

My problem started on Friday (27th April) with a phone call from "Adam" an Orange Rep. (calling from 01482489776) wanting to discuss my current package (Home Select 20mb Plan @ £12.26 p/m) and change it to 'Orange Broadband & Anytime Calls' @ £28.50 p/m.

Now, I'm not the payer of the BT line bill, that's my parents, but I am the payer of the Orange Broadband bill, it was the agreement we made as they (my parents) use my Bband connection for their work needs, but I tend to use my mobile (with Virgin) for calls.

Anyhow, prior to the 'Home Select' plan, I had a plan @£19.99 p/m that allowed me to make phone calls through the Livebox router using an adapter that came with the router.

Now, I wasn't sure what 'Adam' was flogging me; and asked if it was the same as the previous package of the phone connection going through the router; and would I still have the same number as it was still listed as being active (enabled) on my Livebox, despite being on a different plan! Adam said I didn't need to do anything, it would all be transferred over using 'Open reach' whatever that is. Now not being the bill payer, I asked repeatedly, "You're not transferring me from BT, you're not cancelling that service, as I'm not the bill payer?" All I kept getting was, "Don't worry, you don't need to do anything, you'll get an email in the next 30 minutes to say you've agreed to upgrade your existing account." He then transfered me to his Supervisor 'Anna', whom, well, I've heard of typed words per minute, but this lady set a new World record for speaking, lol!!

I even asked this lady that I wasn't getting transferred from BT to Orange; and got the repeated reply of "You don't need to do anything, it will be done automatically."

So, I awaited the email and it didn't come in the 30 mins so had to go to work. Got home @ 630pm (irrelevant, I know, but trying to show for time scales), looked at my emails; and there is the email saying I've been signed up to 'Broadband & Anytime Calls plan @£15 p/m plus line rental @ £13.50p/m; and that's when the alarm bells kicked in, as I didn't have 'line rental' on the last plan with VOIP from the router!

So, I called Orange CS @ 645pm and spoke to 'Imbim' and told him everything. Low and behold, he can't find any order and tells me it takes 24 hours to show up on the system; and I should call back at the same time "Tomorrow." I phoned back the following day @ 650pm (didn't get the CS operators name; and yet again went through everything that had happened. He could see the order and said he would transfer me to the right dept. That turned out to be the Bband cancellation dept., the wrong place, so I was put on hold and transferred again. Finally, I speak to someone; and he puts me on hold for 10 minutes whilst speaking to the 'technicians' and am told around 715pm, that the account had been reverted back, but could not have the new brightbox, because it was only part of the 'phone packages.'

1st May, guess what, my member centre sends me my monthly bill saying I'm due to pay £30.12 for the phone/Bband package. I go to ring Orange again; and have a BT 1571 message pending, so listen to that 1st; and it's an automated text sms from BT saying they're sorry to hear we're leaving them and transferring our phone services to another provider - You have to be kidding me!! They leave an 0800 number to ring them. Instead of ringing BT, I ring Orange CS again and speak to 'Lucy' at 945am, whom puts me through to her supervisor 'Lisa'. Now, throughout this I have to say neither me nor CS have raised our voices, etc, it's been nice calm chats to resolve the situation. Lisa reads back everything that was logged on the screen from the 28th; and it appears that the cancellation of the service hadn't gone through. So she speaks with the techies and puts in the block, updates the computer log, orders me a 'brightbox' (and said I could have it, I only had to ask), appologies for all the stress caused, tells me I'm going to get a refund in June, because she couldn't do it for may as the bill had already been processed; and advises me 'out of peace of mind' to contact BT and let them know that the order with Orange had been cancelled.

Straight now onto BT. I speak to 'Dan' who asks for the full story (as above) and then says, "Yes I can see there's an 'open reach' order to switch to Orange. For legal reasons, I cannot do anything to stop it until 13th May to terminate the transfer, which is due to go through on 15th May, you'll need to call back on the 13th!" Eh?? Naturally, I asked why? and apparently BT have to give Ornage the chance to terminate the order at their end before BT can step in, lol. OK. But whilst this has all be going on since Friday, the other thing I've noticed is the major drop in BBand speed. I've gone from 3.5mb to 1.6mb overnight. I actually brought it up with Lisa, whilst she was updating the computer and she didn't have a clue why.

So, has anyone got any advise on what happens now, because my Orange member centre doesn't show anything about the new 'home select' plan that I'm supposed to be getting, instead, it says "We're unable to offer you a regrade online" I have to contact CS if I want to upgrade. Like normal, there's nothing in the 'order tracking' section; but I did receive 5 emails saying my plan had been changed to 'Orange home plan' according to Lisa @£12 p/m. I'm worried to death incase it switches over on the 15th, even if I do speak to BT on the 13th; and if it does, can it be transferred back, if Orange claim the a/c was terminated already; and finally, what is 'open reach'??

Like I said in the topic title, "What a mess" and it is; and sorry for the lengthy novel, but I felt everything should be shared.

Dave.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 02-May-12 16:47:34
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: Daveros] [link to this post]
 
BT Retail should be able to cancel the order, are you down as allowed to control that account?

The process Orange started is Notification of Transfer. Most losing providers write a letter/email and set out how you can cancel the move if you had not authorised it, i.e. avoids slamming.

Ofcom GC24 sets out your legal position
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/telecoms/p...

Customer’s termination rights
24.9 When the Customer enters into a contract to transfer a Fixed Line Telecommunications Service the Gaining Communications Provider must allow the Customer to terminate the contract from the point of sale to the completion of the Transfer Period without charge or any other form of compensation being required to be given by the Customer to the Gaining Communications Provider.


What BT should be doing
Cancel Other process
24.14 The Losing Communications Provider shall only be permitted to use Cancel Other in the following circumstances:
(a) where Slamming has occured;
(b) at the Customer’s request, where the Gaining Communications Provider has failed to cancel the request after being directed by the Customer to do so (“Failure to Cancel”);
(c) where the telephone line is or will be, ceased during the Transfer Period (“Line Cease”);
(d) for other specified reasons not related to a Customer’s request to cancel a transfer, and agreed by the relevant industry forum and approved by Ofcom; and
(e) in such other circumstances as defined by Ofcom.


Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User shrimper1
(member) Wed 02-May-12 17:13:49
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: Daveros] [link to this post]
 
Open Reach is BT's Engineering arm - they maintain the telephone lines, install/replace wiring cabinets, and work hand in hand with BT's local Telephone Exchanges. I'm sure there are guys on here with more info on this; I'm just speaking from quite a bit of experience with BT Open Reach, after they tried everything to improve my Orange Broadband service - which I finally gave up on, and went with BT Broadband - so that my phone etc., was all with one supplier. Got to say that my speeds are so much better now, and consistent ..................... and no opportunity for the broadband supplier to pass the buck! Also worth paying a little extra for a faster, more reliable service.


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Standard User vivaciti
(knowledge is power) Wed 02-May-12 17:27:32
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: Daveros] [link to this post]
 
The best thing would be to call BT and tell them you did not authorise the phone line to be moved anywhere (as you have said) and you don't want to leave BT, dont go into all the ifs and buts about what orange said etc, just keep it simple, you do not authorise this transfer! BT Retails will then send a not authorised over to OR and this will stop the transfer as "Not authorised" we get this from time to time and we dont have to wait until x days, we speak with the customer, they say they dont want to move their phone line so it does not get moved.

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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 02-May-12 17:29:27
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: Daveros] [link to this post]
 
Openreach is the BT Group engineering company. It's them that supply and maintain the physical line between you and the exchange. That applies to any phone line you have except Virgin Media Cable which is of course totally independent of BT.

It is Openreach who then connect your line at the exchange to the right company. This can vary depending on a number of things.

In your case it is connected to BT Wholesale for both phone and broadband, as BT Retail phone lines like yours are supplied through them, and Orange Broadband is completely run by BT Wholesale. Orange Broadband is really just a sales and possibly a help line operation, since they handed the customers over to BT Wholesale a few months back. Note the difference between BT Retail that your line rental goes to, and BT Wholesale whose equipment your phone service goes through. (Nice and clear and simple. Not!)

BT Retail who you rang should certainly be able to stop the line being transferred away from themselves. That's why you get the email, so you can tell them you don't want it to happen, as telling the people taking it that you don't want it to happen can be ignored.

I didn't know they had to wait till the last minute. That sounds daft, but quite possible. Make sure you do ring them on the 13th, in the morning!

Unless!

Have you talked this through with your parents. Maybe it's a good deal and they would be OK with it? Or could that just start a big row frown ?

I reckon you were mis-sold this package by a salesman and his boss desperate to meet their April sales target. I think you should write (snail-mail) to Orange, Recorded or Special Delivery, or whatever they now call the cheapest way of getting it signed for, saying you reject this phone conversation mis-selling, while there is still time under the Distance Selling Regulations. I suggest this in order to avoid the possibility of Orange saying they have no record of your cancellation of the line rental transfer.

Re the broadband package itself, ploughing through their website is really painful. I've no intention of putting my phone number into their checker either! But it does look like an OK one as long as it is available without having to move the line rental too. Which your post suggests is the case. £12pm?

But the other prices you give are strange. The £28.50 package seems to include 500 minutes of landline >> mobile calls? Without that it is
£23.50. You really have been had, in my opinion. And where does £30.12 come from? Looks like a (high) random number, even if part of it is one plan and part another.

Why the speed should fall, ummm. Probably a separate issue. Have you rebooted the router since it happened? Can you get the line stats from it?

Finally, if you haven't got the new Brightbox yet, I advise you not to open it. You might find it ties you into a new 12 or 18 month broadband contract, though it's likely that has happened anyway with the change of plan. I imagine reverting to your previous plan will be a messy affair, as there will be no way for them to order it on their system.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 02-May-12 17:32:45
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
If the original poster is conveying the cancel request as they did in the post above, then BT is following the rules, i.e. giving the gaining provider chance to cancel it.

The best solution is to be plain with BT and say line is being slammed, and they can then act, as per GC24

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User TMCR
(member) Wed 02-May-12 18:21:51
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: Daveros] [link to this post]
 
Slamming, plain and simple.

Orange would not make such a call, or mislead like this. The fact that it's come from a Hull number that is noted elsewhere for unsolicited calls would set alarm bells ringing to me.

All calls I get from Orange come via their own 07973100xxx range. The fact that Orange could not locate the order was one thing. I would be asking Orange if the order had come from a reseller, who stands to get a heck of a commission for the sale, or internal - and I doubt I'd find a bookie in the land willing to take my bet!

Always check that it is actually Orange, and not someone selling Orange products. Complain to Orange and tell them you want the dealer who's conned you investigated as others are bound to have been hit by the same practise.

This business of transferring you to a 'supervisor' is well known, it's just someone on the next desk who is there to convince you you're getting a good deal - when you're not.

Once I can confirm this, my next move would be to call BT and tell them you have been the victim of a scam and to stop the transfer NOW.

Unsolicited calls from dodgy companies like this should be outlawed, but they get away with it so much that the odd % that do reject the new order in time are compensated for by those who don't realise until it's too late.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 02-May-12 18:22:53
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
But the other prices you give are strange. The £28.50 package seems to include 500 minutes of landline >> mobile calls? Without that it is £23.50.
Broadband and Anytime Mobile Calls for an Orange mobile customer = Broadband and Anytime Calls for a non-Orange mobile customer = £28.50 grin

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User Daveros
(newbie) Wed 02-May-12 18:54:40
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the quick responses.

My parents are objeckting to them losing BT as their provider; and I was on the understanding this was a 2nd line reintroduction through the router, not a full take-over to Orange, until the email from Orange came. The guy (Adam) kept saying I'd keep my number; and I said was it the one on my router; and then the next response would be, "Yes, you don't need to worry about anything, we'll sort it all out for you."

Sort it out, indeed they have with this attempt to transfer us from BT altogether. I was pretty shocked though when 'Dan' the BT CS said I had to wait till the 13th May. He even gave me his dept's. direct number to call on that day - 0800 800 030.

I didn't get an email or letter from BT saying there was a pending termination. I found out when I went to call Ornage and on picking up the phone handset I heard the BT 1571 tone, dialled it; and was greeted with "This is a BT automated text sms....we're sorry to hear you're transferring your service to another provider. If this is incorrect, or you want to speak to a customer sales member, please call 0800 434 6055."

I've just looked at my Orange Member centre again, were it says "Change your home package" and all I can see is this.....

We're unable to offer you a regrade online.

Broadband customer support.
0844 873 8586
Lines are open from 7am to 11pm, 7 days a week
Your call will cost up to 5.1 pence a minute from a BT line or from your Orange home. Charges from other networks may vary and calls might be recorded for quality assurance purposes.


Normally, that would say what package I have. I was told yesterday by 'Lisa' that I cannot be reverted back to my original 'Home select 20mb' plan as it no longer exists - I was on it on Friday, however - and according to 'Lisa' I was being set-up with 'Simply Broadband', although the email that got sent out shortly after she updated the computer said 'Home broadband plan.' She told me I wouldn't find 'Simply Broadband' on the website as they were trying to make everyone do the phone or mobile/broadband package, but she had a number of options to choose from on her computer screen!! I wonder if my old Home Select 20mb plan was on there?!!

The BBand speed has dropped. I've unplugged the Livebox a few time this morning; and left it off for 10 mins each time. I've also been into the Livebox setting section, clicked 'disconnect' and left that off for a few minutes also. I've also clicked the 'validate' button, just to make sure nothing gets left out; and the speed has gone up and down from 1.6mb to 2.0mb, down to 1.8mb and it is currently at 2.0mb.

I'm also in the process of downloading a weekly TV programme via iTunes, the time for estimated download also makes me aware that my speed has been dropped (or capped, god I hope not) as normally it takes 1-2 hours to dload the 1.47Gb episode. At present, iTunes is telling me I have 47 hours to go, lol, I kid you not!!!

I'm very tempted, not only to complain to Ornage, but they have a 7-day cooling off period for new packages; and I'm very much tempted to say "Put me back onto your cancellation dept, I'm going to... (say BT)!"

So, what's the best option, contact BT 1st thing, or wait till the 13th, which I feel is a little too close for comfort, if we get the usual, "You need to wait 24 hours for it to go through the system!"

Thanks for your help,

Dave.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 02-May-12 19:05:14
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Re: Orange Broadband - What a mess!!


[re: Daveros] [link to this post]
 
Just something that might be relevant. Can you get BT Infinity Unlimited there? It's the same price as BT ADSL2+, but a bit more expensive than Orange. That could be a good thing to go for, by getting a MAC within that 7 days.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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