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Standard User Humblebug
(newbie) Wed 16-Oct-13 21:58:19
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A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fault?)


[link to this post]
 
After returning from holiday I found my that although my phone worked my friends could not ring me and I was getting more than a few wrong numbers. My broadband had also slowed considerably so I emailed IDNet (my then CP) to report the fault. Imagine my surprise when they told me both my phone line and broadband had been taken over by someone else....

After questioning one of the 'wrong numbers' I found out they where trying to contact one of my neighbours and to cut a long story short found out they had just moved in and signed up with Plusnet....

Fast forward five days and Plusnet sent out an OpenReach engineer who cancelled ceased my line so now I have no phone or broadband and IDNet want £125 + vat to reconnect me blush

Ofcom have confirmed I have been slammed but say it doesn't sound as if it was malicious slamming and I agree.

I have been in contact with Plusnet but the upshot is they say my ISP should have contacted me instead of letting the transfer go through...

My questions are:

1/ what do I do next?

2/ Is there anyway to get my old number back?

TIA for any help smile

Humblebug
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 16-Oct-13 22:20:12
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: Humblebug] [link to this post]
 
With wlr line rental a letter should have been posted by the losing provider.

I suspect that what happened was a cease and provide by plusnet. First stage is to get reconnected with a provider of your choice and then pursue refunds for extra costs and trouble.

Advice from cab for your legal rights is a good idea

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Humblebug
(newbie) Wed 16-Oct-13 23:07:05
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thank you for your fast reply and advice Mr Saffron, I will make an appointment with cab in the morning.

Just one more question if I may... Who do I pursue for the refunds - IDNet, Plusnet or both?


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 16-Oct-13 23:42:48
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: Humblebug] [link to this post]
 
Tough one that as no contractual relationship with usnet.

Gut suggests Plusnet particularly if no mac or transfer letter was used. Fault may been down to Openreach but that is for the provider to deal with

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 16-Oct-13 23:59:53
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Tough one that as no contractual relationship with usnet.
OP did have a contract with IDNet; IDNet failed to send OP notice of impending transfer; therefore IDNet.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 17-Oct-13 01:51:26
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Advice from cab for your legal rights is a good idea
The legal position is immensely complicated, as there's a web of inter-related contracts. There's five parties involved - Humblebug, the neighbour, IDNet, PlusNet and BT Openreach (if we bring in the broadband side of things as well, there's also BT Wholesale and possibly another wholesale provider if IDNet don't use BT Wholesale). Obviously, Humblebug is a third party to most of these contracts, so, apart from the limited circumstances covered by the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999, cannot derive any benefit from them. In practice, this means that if IDNet followed the terms and conditions of their contract with Humblebug, plus any terms implied by the law (notably including the term implied by section 13 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 that services are carried out with "reasonable care and skill" and those imposed by the regulations on transfer of service), Humblebug may not have any remedy in contract.

The remedy to this matter from a legal perspective may well lie within the law of negligence. Once you step from contract into tort law (the area of law that includes negligence), the remedies available are more limited than under contract law and establishing any claim is often be more complicated. Instead of clear rights typically based on a written agreement, as in the majority of contract scenarios, a claim in tort usually involves establishing a duty of care was owed and that this duty was breached.


What remedies are available exist will depend on who did what - which may be hard to establish in this case, as PlusNet may be reluctant to talk to Humblebug and BT Openreach are not consumer facing. It might be uneconomic to consult a solicitor in this case - even a fixed-fee interview for advice will probably cost approaching half the £125 + VAT IDNet want for reconnection.

CAB advisors are not trained lawyers - they're very well trained, but there's only so much they can do. I had a quick glance at the CAB's web site - their advice on slamming that has taken place is simply to complain to both service providers involved and possibly Ofcom, whilst any mention of tort (personal injury, negligence etc.) I found led to the advice to contact a solicitor.

A better option may be for Humblebug to take advantage of any legal advice service (s)he may have access to as part of an insurance policy, union membership, workplace scheme, services offered by a bank account or similar.


PlusNet are typically quite active on these forums. If this post doesn't attract their attention, maybe a post in the PlusNet forum here will. Ultimately, it would be much easier if some sort of consensual solution were found, rather than resorting to legal action.

As MrSaffron says, it's probably better to arrange for restoration of service, then seek recovery of the costs involved.

ISP Representative simon_idnet
(isp) Thu 17-Oct-13 09:59:00
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: Humblebug] [link to this post]
 
It sounds like Openreach had the wrong address in their database for your phone number. Hence when your new neighbours signed-up with Plusnet your line got taken away.

Before you can claim against Openreach you will need a working line to be installed so that they can identify you in their database. Once that is in place then your phone line provider can take your case to Openreach to seek a refund for the expenses incurred.

We would be pleased to take your case on for you if you wish us to.

Regards
Simon
IDNet
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 17-Oct-13 11:10:36
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
PlusNet got morphed to usnet on the phone. Have turned off the auto correct that got turned back on after an upgrade.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Humblebug
(newbie) Thu 17-Oct-13 22:43:42
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
First, my thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to my post smile

--

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Tough one that as no contractual relationship with usnet.
OP did have a contract with IDNet; IDNet failed to send OP notice of impending transfer; therefore IDNet.


XRaySpeX is correct I did have a contract with IDNet and they had a duty under the Ofcom regs to inform me someone was about to take over my line that they failed to perform...

I have now sent an email to someone at IDNet (who has been helpfully trying to find out what went wrong) about this and I am waiting for his reply. However, I am now thinking I should have put in an official complaint to a/ the complaints manager instead.

--
Thank you for your very detailed reply David W. I think section 13 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 applies in my case.

As for negligence, I think trying to establish a duty of care under these circumstances would be a an expensive, and ultimately fruitless task frown

--

In reply to a post by simon_idnet:
It sounds like Openreach had the wrong address in their database for your phone number. Hence when your new neighbours signed-up with Plusnet your line got taken away.


I think you are right Simon. I have checked on Plusnet's site and they have listed four out of the seven properties here plus one phantom property. My neighbour isn't listed at all despite being listed correctly in the Post Office Address File (PAF).

In reply to a post by simon_idnet:
Before you can claim against Openreach you will need a working line to be installed so that they can identify you in their database. Once that is in place then your phone line provider can take your case to Openreach to seek a refund for the expenses incurred.

We would be pleased to take your case on for you if you wish us to.


Thank you for the offer Simon, but I do not have a contract with Openreach so if they did supply Plusnet's database it up to Plusnet to seek any damages incurred not me.

--

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
...First stage is to get reconnected with a provider of your choice and then pursue refunds for extra costs and trouble.


I think this looks like the best plan too, considering the lengthy complaint process, that could take months and more than likely end up in the small claims court.

As for choice, for the last six years I have been happy with IDNet. However, after all that has happened I have lost all faith in them. Therefore, my choices seem limited to paying more and risking another specialised company; going to Sky (who have LLU at my exchange) even though they are known for poor customer service; or join Plusnet, cheap but I am tied to my enemy for the next 12 to 18 months...

Any other option that anyone can think of?
Standard User kamelion
(experienced) Thu 17-Oct-13 23:40:50
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Re: A tale of slamming... ( IDNet or Plusnet, who is at fau


[re: Humblebug] [link to this post]
 
If you are used to paying IDNET prices then I don't think you could go far wrong with Zen.

BeUnlimited
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 2,273 / 21,442
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