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Standard User paulb100
(member) Thu 02-Feb-17 23:40:22
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
"shared pool of bandwidth"

This is not the WhiteHouse so I'll call this statement out, while the BT Wholesale network could be viewed as a big pool, providers do have a good degree of influence in terms of capacity they purchase.

Looking at the quality metrics when Virgin Media as a national ISP is down almost amongst the 4G providers for quality


whilst that is true, my past experiences with many old 'IPstream' ISP's was bad...such things as allowing congestion to go on for several months before even addressing it, some even denied it was happening, "lighting another segment" I recall was the term they would use when eventually getting BT wholesale to enable another 144Mbit worth of bandwidth (back in the day of 8Mbit connections just before ADSL2+ starting to roll-out) - that's not too say their weren't good ISP's that would address it.. such ISPs were usually the smaller Entanet Re-Sellers, I went with Falconnet in the end (after AOhell and Tiscali) and they were very quick to respond to congestion, as were IDnet for my dads old connection, I imagine things have improved somewhat but I can only go from my past experiences.. yes I'm with a wholesale ISP now but I knew that PlusNet's reputation was good for connections...dunno about Customer Service though, have heard some bad storys

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Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 03-Feb-17 07:26:56
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
yeah but its reasonable to assume there is others in the same boat, so lets say there is 2 others at the same time with a 220mbit shortfall.

Thats 660mbit of bandwidth.

Just reread your post, been enough for 3-6 months doesnt sound great, when it can take them years to add capacity.

Lets hope there is also a couple of node splits as well so if we add the 66% then times it by 4 for the 2 node splits its a bit more reasonable at a 564% increase. Now thats a proper upgrade smile


In which case there's very roughly 240Mb available on top of sustained usage and it's actually not as bad as originally thought. Rather than running at 520/600 the segment is running at 360 before these 3 x Homeworks users each take 80.

Splitting twice and adding channels might be a proper upgrade but it's also insane from a commercial perspective, especially when 3.1 isn't that far away. Load is increasing at about 60% a year, why spend on DOCSIS 3.0 capacity that will quite literally never be used?
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 03-Feb-17 08:54:01
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
I should point out that no cable company scales their network on the assumption that 3 top tier users will be maxing out at the same time.

In the example you quoted that would mean VM having the area running at no higher than 25% on the off chance that 3 x 300Mb users all decide to download at the same time to ensure no visible contention.

Even Andrews and Arnold don't run their network close to that level of utilisation.

VM pay per downstream channel. That's an awful lot of money doing nothing.

The industry standard is to take the peak sustained load and add the top tier to it and that's your capacity requirements for the group. This obviously gives two options, to either node split to reduce sustained load or add additional channels to provide headroom for burst.

It doesn't take years to add capacity usually. There have been a bunch of issues, in this case the problem being the area is stuck on a legacy platform that can only do 12 channels without migration to CCAP, and that migration is 4 months behind plan.

If you read the OP you'll note that had the migration proceeded on time, OP would've seen no service impact.

JIT capacity management.

Everyone does it. They have little choice in the UK due to need to price so keenly to gain mass-market adoption.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 03-Feb-17 10:02:37
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: paulb100] [link to this post]
 
This was in the days before 95th percentile billing, where the more traffic BT Wholesale carried the more it got paid, and thus things now with the WBC network can flex much easier and are more scaleable than the days of the old ATM and BT Centrals back in 2003

We are talking the time when an ISP with 1 Mbps customers, would rent 2 Mbps of capacity to carry 100 customers over, and that is NOT a scaling thing am talking absolute numbers.

Past experience is great, but when things are changing retaining the past knowledge is great but be very careful to adapt to the new changing picture.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User paulb100
(member) Fri 03-Feb-17 13:36:14
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
This was in the days before 95th percentile billing, where the more traffic BT Wholesale carried the more it got paid, and thus things now with the WBC network can flex much easier and are more scaleable than the days of the old ATM and BT Centrals back in 2003

We are talking the time when an ISP with 1 Mbps customers, would rent 2 Mbps of capacity to carry 100 customers over, and that is NOT a scaling thing am talking absolute numbers.

Past experience is great, but when things are changing retaining the past knowledge is great but be very careful to adapt to the new changing picture.


It was around 2007-2008 when I had my bad experiences, that's how I ended up on broadband forums to find out who were the good ISP's, as I was choosing all the 'popular' (but severely congested) ISPs such as AOL and TISCALI, it was then (through the old DSL-Zone-UK Forum) that I was introduced to Entanet Re-sellers etc and top connection speed was 8Mbit and you had to endure usage limits...but you got an excellent reliable connection.

Anyway back on the subject of VM - I remember reading an article (might have been on here) that 2 out 3 VM subscribers suffered the effects of congestion due to over-subscription...mind this was about 4 years ago, my personal experiences were good, yes the router needed a reboot now & then, when the connection went funny (Im getting that now with PlusNet and their Hub One)...every 2-3 weeks I have to reboot the router to fix whatevers happening to it (throughput dips by 30-50%), jumping up and down on speedtests (LAN or WIFI), but sync remains, reboot and its fine... speaking of speedtests I think TBB speedtester is great, you get to see the response on a single file download and a multi-threaded one... it would sap up my old VM 106Mbit connection no bother.

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Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 03-Feb-17 14:10:40
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
I think the issue with VM is that because their work tends to need planning permission and for whatever reason needs "time", they need to "over provision" to have a "no visible contention" service, or at least a service where the visible contention is reasonable for e.g. just at the very peak in evenings and only moderate at worst.

BT with their ability to provide extra capacity on a whim and like wise CP's also able to turn up capacity on a whim (aaisp micro manage their capacity and change it daily/weekly), it is ok for those to sort of run with "just enough" capacity, but when it takes weeks/months/years to add capacity then the only reasonable solution for customers is to over provision.

I also think it would be used at some point,. given the way usage is growing across the populace and how fast VM are ramping up speeds, it is a given that the capacity will get used at some point, its a matter of when not if.

This is where I think the market is broken, if its considered insane for VM to offer a fit for purpose service across their entire footprint then there needs to be changes to marketing guidelines so that VM are forced to reveal this issue to new customers.

Thanks for your posts appreciated as always, it does give answers as to why whenever VM upgraded my area, it was barely noticeable since the upgrades are so small % wise they were never really enough.

How far away do you think 3.1 is from been actually deployed?

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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 03-Feb-17 14:15:04
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Might be interesting to look at Jan 2017 comparison between adsl, fttc and cable https://twitter.com/thinkbroadband/status/8274998001...

Blog once I get time will add single vs multiple and latency views too.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 03-Feb-17 18:51:54
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I also think it would be used at some point,. given the way usage is growing across the populace and how fast VM are ramping up speeds, it is a given that the capacity will get used at some point, its a matter of when not if.


Capacity on cable isn't that simple. The network is a constantly evolving creature and capacity can't necessarily be taken from one iteration to the next apart from bandwidth, and by that I don't mean bits per second but MHz.

If VM were to add a ton of capacity under the existing set up it would be made redundant when they move to CCAP and the E6k / cBR-8.

Later on they will be augmenting the 3.0 capacity with 3.1 channels, likely pushing the top tiers onto 3.1 and removing the need for all the burst on 3.0.

Following on from that come R-PHY, where the edge QAMs and return path receivers are moved out into cabinets, and after that R-CCAP, where there is no longer a CMTS as such, it's just a router and can even be a VM, with cabinets taking digital backhaul and basically becoming the equivalent of an IP DSLAM.

I'm genuinely serious, cloud CMTS are a thing.

At some point after R-PHY comes FDX-DOCSIS - turning the cable network from a traditional frequency division multiplexed network into what is closer to a G.fast network on steroids using coax instead of twisted pair and time division.

R-CCAP makes the previous CMTS models redundant. R-PHY makes edge QAM and receiver capacity redundant. 3.1 augments 3.0 and reduces need for it, FDX augments and will eventually replace 3.1 and 3.0.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
How far away do you think 3.1 is from been actually deployed?


3.1 will be around sooner rather than later. It's the technology behind the Liberty Global Gigaworld plan. You don't make a swish video like that if you aren't going to have the family good to go soon.

Do I expect a wide deployment immediately? Nope. No point. VM UK aren't a UPC Romania or Cablecom and don't have big gigabit FTTP deployments to compete with.
Standard User arronlowley
(regular) Fri 03-Feb-17 21:24:11
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: paulb100] [link to this post]
 
The thing with virgin is they're so greedy and they don't care about anyone, the amount of people I see on the forum with utilisation problems for over a year is ridiculous, legally when you sign up, isps should have to tell you if your area can handle it, this should be a legal requirement.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 04-Feb-17 15:57:04
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Re: My take on virgin media


[re: arronlowley] [link to this post]
 
On the day you sign up everything could be ok. After a couple of weeks of half a dozen others joining the same node, segment (whatever it's call) then everything could go to pot.

What "legal" stand do you have then? Broadband is a moving feast.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
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