Help Choosing the right LLU provider

So line went live yesterday with O2 LLU, the PRO package.

25dB line and an 18 meg sync rate, great.

I don't want to stay with O2, however. The router (TG585N) is RUBBISH, and they won't disable interleaving (enable fastpath).

Now I have lots of LLU providers on my exchange, O2/BE, Easynet, Bulldog / C&W, etc etc.


I am looking for an ISP that offers:

Uncapped ADSL 2+
No FUP / AUP / Bandwidth Limitations / Traffic Management
Ability to disable interleaving / enable Fast Path

I've narrowed my choice to:

BE Unlimited, Vivaciti LLU, or UKOnline.

BE had had a history of bandwidth issues which although now resolved, scare me.

Vivaciti LLU (C&W) is new and I know very little about it

UKOnline works best only with a very expensive router


I'll be buying my own router, so don't care what is included.


So what's best? I don't want to start the ISP Hopping game again, but nor can I stay with O2 if they won't disable interleaving and expect me to pay a premium for this appauling router.

Help appreciated

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

Well if it helps we have no problem with fast path and on a 25db line I would expect the line to be enabled as fast path to start with.

www.vivaciti.net
Vivaciti Broadband
0800 0911797
Forum

What a very strange post.

Your sig and Profile say Be* (Value), so I presume you went from them to Sky. What bandwidth issues on Be are you referring to?

What did you think of the BeBox when you had it?

On Be Unlimited and Pro you can disable interleaving yourself. Or a call to support is even better as another fault correction routine is disabled by them.You can also migrate internally from O2 with no problem.

How's the latency compared to anything you have ever had before? Your only complaint seems to be interleaving as you are happy to buy your own router with any ISP.

Why are you on Pro? That's the only premium you are paying, unless it was for the wireless N rather than the upload speed. If the upload speed matters then I only know of O2/Be offering it.

So what's the question? I doubt if you would seriously consider any of the etc etcs. Sky you just left.

And by the way, I believe if you get to the right level of support in O2 you can get interleaving turned off. This post refers to earlier ones I have also seen, but it's not my job to find them.

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What a very strange post.

Your sig and Profile say Be* (Value), so I presume you went from them to Sky. What bandwidth issues on Be are you referring to?

What did you think of the BeBox when you had it?

On Be Unlimited and Pro you can disable interleaving yourself. Or a call to support is even better as another fault correction routine is disabled by them.You can also migrate internally from O2 with no problem.

How's the latency compared to anything you have ever had before? Your only complaint seems to be interleaving as you are happy to buy your own router with any ISP.

Why are you on Pro? That's the only premium you are paying, unless it was for the wireless N rather than the upload speed. If the upload speed matters then I only know of O2/Be offering it.

So what's the question? I doubt if you would seriously consider any of the etc etcs. Sky you just left.

And by the way, I believe if you get to the right level of support in O2 you can get interleaving turned off. This post refers to earlier ones I have also seen, but it's not my job to find them.

Yes I had Be* Value at my mothers house and then Migrated to Sky and the migration failed.

I haven't updated my sig since before I migrated to Sky at Mother's house, so that's old and apols, it needs updating.

And again, yes you are right I am paying the extra for "Pro" so that I get the "N" router and not so that I get Upload Plus.

If I can get interleaving disabled after 11PM tonight then I'll be a very happy bunny and won't need to migrate away.

It's not just for the ping times, but also because on short lines that are error free, Interleaving decreases the sync rate a bit.

I'll see what O2 say tonight, if not then I'll have a rethink.

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

So what bandwidth issues on BE are you referring to?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

So what bandwidth issues on BE are you referring to?

The multitude of exchanges that were experiencing high latency / low throughput about a year / year and a half ago.


If you can't remember then you probably weren't affected, but the issues were widespread and BE took a while to pull their finger out.

BY the way - just got off the phone to O2 Tier 2, and they refused point blank to enable fast path.

They tried to fob me off by saying "I've spoken to my manager and he said that Interleaving protects your data".

I explained to him how interleaving works, and how it can increase throughput / sync rate on a long, noisy line, but actually decreases sync rate on a short, quiet line not to mention doubling my ping times.

I also explained that Vivaciti, UKOnline, and BE are able to offer me Fast Path but I can't migrate to BE because they don't accept O2 MACs, only the other way around.

So, I think I'll be giving Vivaciti a call tomorrow, clearly O2 don't want my custom!!

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

I thought my post might upset you and hoped it wouldn't. Seems it didn't.

I used to think that interleaving reduced connection speed on ADSL Max. I was wrong - it doesn't until you hit 8128kbps.

On Be there have been several reports of interleaving ON increasing the sync speed compared to OFF. The only explanation I can think of is that the BT DLM does it one way, and the Be DSLAM firmware does it another.

In a way it would make sense to allow a higher sync with interleaving, as interleaving greatly reduces retransmissions. It is therefore safe to allow more errors to occur due to higher speed as without retransmissions the overall throughput improves. Just the latency that suffers.

I hope you get somewhere with the phone call. Several have done, but I have seen just one who said he didn't get straight through to 2nd tier and didn't get a result when he did.

The other thing you can think about if you don't need/want the faster upload is to get Annex M turned off at the same time. Go back to Annex A. That should add about 2.5Mbps to your connection speed.

If you are familiar with the DMT bit-loading graph, Annex M grabs the bottom end of the download frequencies just above the upload ones, and uses them for upload. Therefore unless you are on the exchange doorstep you lose download speed.

Alternatively, if you still intend to buy your own router get yourself downgraded to Premium and save the money! (Towards the router).

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

Never mind...

... I tried, interleaaving tends to decrease the sync rate on short quiet lines under about 30db but increases sync rate on longer noiser lines.

Off to Vivaciti.

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

In reply to a post by izools:

BY the way - just got off the phone to O2 Tier 2, and they refused point blank to enable fast path.

That's right, they don't do fastpath.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by izools:

BY the way - just got off the phone to O2 Tier 2, and they refused point blank to enable fast path.

That's right, they don't do fastpath.

They have been known to. You have to get a helpful level 2 or above.

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

I can't migrate to BE because they don't accept O2 MACs, only the other way around.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by izools:

BY the way - just got off the phone to O2 Tier 2, and they refused point blank to enable fast path.

That's right, they don't do fastpath.

They have been known to. You have to get a helpful level 2 or above.

I think its a bug in certain routers giving false information. As far as I'm aware O2 don't do fastpath. BE do on Unlimited and Pro however.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I can't migrate to BE because they don't accept O2 MACs, only the other way around.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Well I spoke to an agent and a manager at BE today and they both catagorically stated that the only way to get from O2 to BE LLU is to go via another provider.

O2 Tier 2 support chap said that O2 accept BE MACs however.

I think this is another part of the underhand, shh shh game that O2 are playing to snipe all of the BE customers and remove the brand from their group altogether.

It just seems a bit fishy, the BE website saga, MACs only working one way, O2 offering an N router where BE don't, etc etc.

I may migrate to IDNet and then back to BE.

Haven't decided yet.

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by izools:

BY the way - just got off the phone to O2 Tier 2, and they refused point blank to enable fast path.

That's right, they don't do fastpath.

Similar scenario with SKY / UKOnline, Sky never used to do fastpath, but back in the day if you got through to the right person they would do it for you. Then they were warned and all refused point blank. Now SKY have realised that this is loosing them customers and have started offering a "Gamer" profile with interleaving disabled / reduced to 4ms.

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

The difference is that when you ring Sky late at night you get through to Easynet support but when you ring O2 late at night you still get O2 support. That router bug certainly fools a lot of people.

If you could stand the downtime you could just quit.

Then sign up at Be.

I'd have another go at phoning O2 support - but later! You rang before 11.

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

I have been with Vivaciti and I am now with Xilo (both through C&W).

Xilo - £17.24 (£14.99+VAT)
Viva - £21.85

I can definitely recommend Xilo out of the two after being with both of them, support with their ticket system is second to none, normally get a response within 30 mins.

Its the Pro 16 H package here.

They provide all you ask for:

Uncapped ADSL 2+
No FUP
AUP
Bandwidth Limitations
Traffic Management
And have the ability to change interleaving / Fast Path

I also recently requested to get my line modulation changed from ADSL2+ to ADSL2 due to my long line, they replied within half an hour and had actioned it with C&W at the exchange within 2 hours, great .

Although it states on their website up to 16mb, it will go as fast as the exchange allows, which in my case is up to 24mb, although that doesn't help when you 4.5km from it!

Any questions you've got ask them with their sales chat facility on their webpage.

Hope this helps!

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

Edited by benbird7 (Fri 04-Sep-09 09:22:40)

I think my mind is pretty well made up on migrating to IDNet and then BE.

It doesn't look as though IDNet charge for inbound migrations from LLU unlike Enta; perhaps BT Wholesale dropped this charge with 21CN WBC?

Dunno, but it seems like the right choice.

I've seriously considered Vivaciti LLU but the service hasn't been around for long enough for me to be able to make an informed decision.

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

Did you read my post?

Or just blank that option?

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

In reply to a post by benbird7:

Did you read my post?

Or just blank that option?

Yes I did but unfortunately the idea of either having my download allowance capped at 75GB or sync rate capped at 16 meg doesn't appeal to me.

If I was on a long line like I used to be, then I wouldn't mind, but now that I am on a short line I want to be with an ISP that will let it breathe.

This is what is putting me off UKOnline as well as Xilo - capping the sync rate at 16384K downstream and 1024K upstream when the line is capable of ~ 18.5M down and 1.4M up.

Seems that Viva also advertise the upstream as "1M" and not "1.3M", which is a bit dissapointing.

BE is still the only ISP that will not impose any sync rate caps whatsoever and allow the line to be on FastPath it seems...

... I really like the idea of Vivaciti's LLU product and will probably migrate over once they have been out in the market with LLU for a while and there have been lots of positive feedback on their service.

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

Yes I did but unfortunately the idea of either having my download allowance capped at 75GB or sync rate capped at 16 meg doesn't appeal to me.

BE is still the only ISP that will not impose any sync rate caps whatsoever and allow the line to be on FastPath it seems...

Just want to clarify... if your line can support more. It will. That speed is listed on the site to differentiate from the up to 24Mb product.

However, the Pro 16 H/O are not on 75GB caps.

Also - we allow Fast, or Interleaving and can change it on request.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

In reply to a post by xilonet:

Yes I did but unfortunately the idea of either having my download allowance capped at 75GB or sync rate capped at 16 meg doesn't appeal to me.

BE is still the only ISP that will not impose any sync rate caps whatsoever and allow the line to be on FastPath it seems...

Just want to clarify... if your line can support more. It will. That speed is listed on the site to differentiate from the up to 24Mb product.

However, the Pro 16 H/O are not on 75GB caps.

You mean the products listed as 16Mbps are in fact uncapped? Why then would anyone pay more for the Pro 24 which has the allowance limit?

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

You mean the products listed as 16Mbps are in fact uncapped? Why then would anyone pay more for the Pro 24 which has the allowance limit?

Simply that some people might not be able to get the Pro 16 products.. but can get the Pro1/2/3 products.

Not all exchanges have both - which is why the headline speed is different (to try and avoid confusion of having 5 up to 24Mb products.. with two that don't have a usage figure.)

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

Edited by xilonet (Fri 04-Sep-09 13:58:46)

Got it !

So one is C & W and the other is ...(Be?).

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Got it !

So one is C & W and the other is ...(Be?).

Tiscali Wholesale.... although most people would run a mile at the first word, their 2+ offering is very good and we've connected a handful of users over the last 2-3 days with sync speeds in excess of 19Mb but the plus is their Annex M option which also performs well.

Although their direct product offering might not be amazing from the reviews on here... it isn't to be confused with their wholesale offering.

Funny you should mention Be though - as we're testing them currently within our provisioning systems, so it'll be another option to add to the mix.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

Edited by xilonet (Fri 04-Sep-09 14:07:22)

In reply to a post by izools:

In reply to a post by benbird7:

Did you read my post?

Or just blank that option?

Yes I did but unfortunately the idea of either having my download allowance capped at 75GB or sync rate capped at 16 meg doesn't appeal to me.

If I was on a long line like I used to be, then I wouldn't mind, but now that I am on a short line I want to be with an ISP that will let it breathe.

This is what is putting me off UKOnline as well as Xilo - capping the sync rate at 16384K downstream and 1024K upstream when the line is capable of ~ 18.5M down and 1.4M up.

Seems that Viva also advertise the upstream as "1M" and not "1.3M", which is a bit dissapointing.

BE is still the only ISP that will not impose any sync rate caps whatsoever and allow the line to be on FastPath it seems...

... I really like the idea of Vivaciti's LLU product and will probably migrate over once they have been out in the market with LLU for a while and there have been lots of positive feedback on their service.

As previously mentioned they offer Uncapped ADSL 2+ i.e. up to 24mbps for £17.24. No restrictions and you won't feel pressured to watch your usage!

They haven't got restrictions on up to 75GB, I don't know where you got that from? It states it is unlimited and that it is, even on my 2mb connection I have gone through 140GB so far in my monthly usage. No problem.

Pings are spot on, all in all a great service and one I can highly recommend, good control panel, they also provide free email accounts as part of their service.

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

Matt - may be worth updating the 16mb speed on the Pro 16H and Pro 16O products, as you have stated to me before, other users and in this thread, both the Pro 16H and Pro 16O will go up to 24Mb.

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

As I posted in my last reply - it's done that way, at least for the minute for to differentiate products.

It's something we're working on for the new broadband site as we'll have another set of 24Mb products so there will need to be some major layout changes.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

I'm not deliberately nit-picking but your web page is still confusing. The two 16Mbps products look identical. Is the cheaper one really 8mbps? The top bar on IE8 and the Tab label both show you have 8, 16 and 24 Mbps, but no mention of 8 on the page.

I agree a wholesale product can be far removed from the same company/group's retail offering - evident even with BT. (In the good old ADSL Max days ).

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

I didn't know whether you could look at the design to come up with a way to differentiate the products, providing potential customers with the maximum speed they will be connected at.

i.e. another Tab called LLU? LLU Products? Stating if you have C&W LLU on your exchange (with a link to check number or exchange) that you can get the LLU Home or LLU Office at 1:50 or 1:20 contention rations respectively and that these products are up to 24mb and unlimited.

Also I see when I check my number and it lists the products available to me it also still says Product - Pro 16 Home - LLU
Speed - Up to 16Mb
Upload - 1Mb
Usage - Unmetered
Price - £14.99

Again this is only up to 16mb, I don't think your doing yourselves any favors not giving correct information about the connection speed as this, for a lot of people is a factor that they take seriously.

I have seen a few occasions where people are put off going to that product and therefore Xilo in the thought that they will only receive 2/3 of the potential line capacity if they are connected to a 24mb exchange. I have had to clarify this point to them.

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

Edited by benbird7 (Fri 04-Sep-09 14:34:10)

It's ok

Home/Office on the product page at up to 8Mb only (BT-based).

Pro tab is LLU only... but yes, the table isn't fitting any more hence the need for something slightly bigger.

The interest and take up has been great. So the new site will be live, soon. For now, that table will do but i'll have a look at altering the line up just in the interim.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

In reply to a post by xilonet:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Got it !

So one is C & W and the other is ...(Be?).

Tiscali Wholesale.... although most people would run a mile at the first word, their 2+ offering is very good and we've connected a handful of users over the last 2-3 days with sync speeds in excess of 19Mb but the plus is their Annex M option which also performs well.

Although their direct product offering might not be amazing from the reviews on here... it isn't to be confused with their wholesale offering.

Funny you should mention Be though - as we're testing them currently within our provisioning systems, so it'll be another option to add to the mix.

Matt

It does sound very tempting indeed... food for thought!

Hey what do you make of Tiscali Wholesale support by the way?

They used to be in Milton Keynes and then moved offshore... and turned into a disgrace! Next time you speak to Laura at MK say hi!

There are some serious holes in Tiscali Wholesale's operation however - e.g. I've seen customers get support from Tiscali Retail support when they aren't provided by Tiscali Retail.

Have Tiscali fixed the problem with their DSLAMs not working properly with 3Com Office Connect and ZyXel Prestige routers yet?

I get very close finding a resolution before my ex employer drove me to walk out the door...

...I still get cold shivers when thinking back to having to call Tiscali Wholesale Support.

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

Edited by izools (Fri 04-Sep-09 15:40:20)

Hey what do you make of Tiscali Wholesale support by the way?

Have Tiscali fixed the problem with their DSLAMs not working properly with 3Com Office Connect and ZyXel Prestige routers yet?

2nd line is good. Make of that what you will.

Not noted any problems with ZyXEL kit... not had any reports from 3Com users though. Most of the routers recommend for 2+ are Speedtouch/Vigor/Netgear.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

You'd go on the C&W network anyway with LLU availability wouldn't you IZools?

You won't regret it

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

Hi,
We advertise in headline upto 1mb upload speed, as it helps manage expectations, but we let the line run as fast as it wants to.

www.vivaciti.net
Vivaciti Broadband
0800 0911797
Forum

Again, now I see what you are doing. However the link in your sig goes to the Pro page so that looks like all your products.

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

OK ok I have two last questions then and I'll be placing an order with either Viva or Xilo

> What chipset do the C&W DSLAMs use?
> What's the lowest Target SNR you can set, 3.0dB or 6.0dB?

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

Sorry for the confusion. The page has layered tabs - so that no reload is required just like with some of our other pages.

We will see what we can do about it though, as promised in my last message.

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

I've just noticed that Vivaciti and Xilo don't swallow the migration charge.

Interesting. Now, if I were to get back to BE I'd have to migrate to IDNet first anyway; so if I was with a WBC provider like IDNet, would migration be free? Are Xilo and Viva suggesting a migration fee only because I'm with an LLU provider at the moment or would it be applicable anyway?

If it would be applicable anyway the decision to move to BE is very clear cut indeed which is a real pity because I was hoping to give this C&W LLU a whirl.

Ah well, c'est la vie

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

In reply to a post by izools:

Are Xilo and Viva suggesting a migration fee only because I'm with an LLU provider at the moment or would it be applicable anyway?

I can speak for us.. and it's the case regardless of where you come from; LLU, BT or even a new provide.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

From our point there is a migration fee, we swallow half of this, so only £23.00 is payable, although if you leave service within the first 6 months, then the other half is payable, after 6 months, then nothing is payable if you leave.

www.vivaciti.net
Vivaciti Broadband
0800 0911797
Forum

In reply to a post by izools:

> What chipset do the C&W DSLAMs use?
> What's the lowest Target SNR you can set, 3.0dB or 6.0dB?

From the few tests lines we have...

DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < CTLM > which I believe is Centillium.

The lowest we've ever been requested to set is 6db so I can't answer for the 3db... but can certainly ascertain that information if you want it.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

Hi,
I can answer that one, the lowest snr that can be pulled is 6dB although in saying that I can't see any reason why on a near perfect line we can't see if C&W could not be persuaded to give lower it to 3 but our engineering notes on the product say 6 is the lowest.

www.vivaciti.net
Vivaciti Broadband
0800 0911797
Forum

OK well thanks ever so much for your help guys,

I'm sorry that it has been to waste - see thing is I'm wanting to stay with an ISP ad infinitum and BE are happy to swallow the migration fee in return for me sticking with them, which I think is fair cop.

Not to mention the ease of setting SNR and Interleaving via the online member centre - certainly a fantastic feature.

I wish both VIvaciti and Xilo all the best of luck reselling the C&W LLU it seems you have an excellent offering; just a tiny weeny bit behind BE I'm afraid

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

As Matt said I was charged the £40 even though I was moving from Viva over to them C&W-C&W which is just the way it is i suppose. But when I moved Xilo were offering half price migrations which was good, but that was only to the first 100 customers that used the promotional code.

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

lol I give up.

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
New Speed test with Xilo
Speedtest.net

Edited by benbird7 (Fri 04-Sep-09 19:05:24)

In reply to a post by benbird7:

lol I give up.

Sorry mate I do appreciate your input and Xilo does look like a really good ISP with very cheap ongoing costs.

But I can't justify the extra £40 (or £20 in the case of Viva) up front costs over and above another ISP that can for all intents and purposes offer an identical service.

I've just moved and purse strings are drawn tight, perhaps when I am more flush with money and I've been able to build my float back up that went missing when I handed over the deposit I can consider a more expensive option but for now, £0 installation + 2 months free for an identical service wins it for me.

Doesn't mean I'll be with BE forever, but for now it makes the most sense.

Again, thanks for all of your input, I'm really glad that Xilo and Viva offer excellent products, and I'm greatful that you have brought to light the superb features. Will defo be a future consideration

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
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Hi Matt,

The tiscali wholesale got quite a bad reputation on here some years ago when first plusnet and later eclipse quietly migrated customers onto it. Some of that was datastream wholesale though I think. My memory says both data and ipstream were implicated at various times. There were a lot of issues migrating back in those days - hopefully all a thing of the past - and lots of speed/throttling issues occured (IIRC). Again that may reflect the contracts between plusnet/tiscalli and eclipse/tiscali as much as the underlying technology or congestion. Provided you follow up problems and defend your end users - migrating them elsewhere if its the only fix then it should not affect your reputation even if it is a shadow deterring some people's take up.

The big problem with the plusnet & eclipse migrations onto tiscali conections was that they appeared to be made to save them money versus BTW/IPstream and the customer came a long way down the priorities. Marketing it as a specific product and supporting the customer should in time earn it a better reputation.

Kevin

H: Eclipse Flex 512 - Living in fear of their NAF LLU Suffering from their heavy daytime throttling.
(Was Vispa Dialup)
M: PlusNet BBYW-1 monthly6.5Mbs - They went mad the month I joined

We have quite a few customers now connected on the tiscali wholesale and have had no problems with any of the connections.

www.vivaciti.net
Vivaciti Broadband
0800 0911797
Forum

I fully agree.

One of the companies mentioned, did certainly do bulk migrations in order to save some pennies - whilst attempting to deliver the same service.. which did not work out as planned.

The same could be said of a certain other provider when they bulk migrated users from IP Stream to 21CN the second it was possible - which lead to issues with untested hardware, link and general failures.

Offering three services currently, plus connections via Be in the near future followed with additional connections via Opal/CPW - it simply means more customer choice... but also allows us to chop and change.

That said, the functionality on Tiscali lines is actually far more impressive than C&W lines and once we have tested our new code, profile (SNRM), Fast/Interleave and a few other settings should be near immediate - like with what Be offer. This often means that any changes to fix issues, or stabilise lines including running tests, can be done within minutes, in house without needing to speak with their wholesale support.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

In reply to a post by izools:

UKOnline works best only with a very expensive router

I cant agree im a older customer of theirs (from back when they did upto 22Mb) and i get around 18Mb quite happily on the Netgear they provided.

UKonline AFAIK are also the only people that will WILLINGLY enable fastpath/turn off interleaving and also if needed re-interleave the line.

HOWEVER

I think bethere has or did have an option in your members account/login to turn fastpath on or off.

UKonline do support other things though that i dont think bethere or O2 do such as Seemless Rate Adaption..... Freephone ENGLISH support also Not the cheapest but you do get little extras for your money

In reply to a post by xilonet:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Got it !

So one is C & W and the other is ...(Be?).

Tiscali Wholesale....

LOL no wonder before when pushed that wasnt revealed..... If anyone should even see the word Tiscali mentioned they should run for the hills, its bad enough direct, let alone through a reseller.

Id suggest anyone considering yourself or other C&W/Tiscali LLU ADSL2+ resellers go for the C&W option, people in mass dont lie, Tiscali is horrid.

Edited by CARPETBURN (Sat 05-Sep-09 22:52:23)

Actually, if you remember, that thread was locked.

They may be bad direct but that's certainly not the case on a wholesale level. Their interfaces allow us more control on the lines as I have already posted than C&W lines.

One thing about these lines though is that they have unbundled some exchanges that some of the other networks have not touched.. so for some people this is the only choice for a non-BT based connection.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

In reply to a post by xilonet:

Actually, if you remember, that thread was locked.

They may be bad direct but that's certainly not the case on a wholesale level. Their interfaces allow us more control on the lines as I have already posted than C&W lines.

One thing about these lines though is that they have unbundled some exchanges that some of the other networks have not touched.. so for some people this is the only choice for a non-BT based connection.

Matt

Im not going to argue its pointless, as you are a reseller and a happy reseller of their services obviously you will not say a word against them.

History does not lie though, so here is some history........

1 Tiscali the company that previously slammed several people

2 Tiscali the company who throttled another third party resellers customers to dial up rates and to top things off wouldnt let them migrate.

3 Tiscali one of the most complained about companies in the UK (yes not just when looking at broadband but industry as a whole)

4 Tiscali the only ISP with a record of being on Watchdog 3 seperate times

5 Tiscali one of the most complained about companies to ofcom

6 Tiscali >>>>>>> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/review/products/260.html spot the consistancy, and i picked that site just to show its not just people here that think they are useless.

7 Tiscali The thieving so and sos that tried to claim i owed them money when i was a Pipex customer and didnt.... Funny they should do that the moment i wanted to migrate away.

8 Tiscali it must be a word in some alien language that equates to lots of swearing.

I WILL STATE, IM SURE YOU AND VIVACITI DO THE BEST YOU CAN FOR YOUR CUSTOMERS, THAT IS NOT IN DOUBT.... HOWEVER.......

I believe in the old phrase if you play with fire you will get burned, and from a customers point of view Tiscali be it direct or through a reseller is like playing with a swimming pool full of petrol and matches. One little flame or spark and you are well and truely (Self censored)!

Just to quickly answer that.

1) Maybe so to their direct service, not wholesale.

2) That I did not know, but it's not with what we've seen on the L2TP feed we have.

3) Yes, their direct service using their bandwidth maybe, not wholesale.

4) Maybe so to their direct service, not wholesale.

5) Maybe so to their direct service, not wholesale.

6) Maybe so to their direct service, not wholesale. Partnered/Resold connections rarely use their network which is where their support/traffic shaping/DNS servers/FUP and so on come into play - none of which do with our service.

7) Maybe so to their direct service, not wholesale. They have no billing or service agreement with our end users.

8) Possibly.. but I don't speak alien!

I know of a few companies, one who sell VoIP services as their primary business who offer DSL via Tiscali directly connected to their network who also seem to have few issues.

Im not going to argue its pointless.

Maybe the only thing we'll ever agree on.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

You're wrong to believe that people won't negatively associate Tiscally wholesale with Tiscally retail.

If I understand that.. I not said people people wont think wholesale is 'bad' when the name is mentioned simply by having the Tiscali name in there.

They will.. what I did say was that the service someone may get from the retail side, compared to a partner like us, simply using their tails - could be and is VERY different. We don't sell their products, or ones that use their network connectivity and so are not managed by them like their retail clients might be.

Matt

-
xilodsl.net
t: 0800 848 8468
Official Maidenhead Speedtest.net Host

Thanks to both Xilo and Vivaciti (below) for their informative posts.

Its good to hear - for your sakes as much as anything - that that the two levels of service are so different. I guess it shows that the wholesale experience is a proper B2B service that you in effect subcontract rather than a "minimal reseller relationship".

It does rather confirm that all of tiscali's historical problems on the retail service derive from a pile them high and sell it cheap business model. Implying that peak bandwidth per user whether through management or congestion really is at the root of their service issues, along with poor (ie. cheap) customer service. So their mantra might be "Its not the network its how we use it...!".

I guess your experience also reinforces the idea that the B2B services that plusnet and eclipse originally bought in used a similar business model to tiscali retail. The maximum number of users at the lowest bandwidth/cost. Well done to both of you for avoiding that model (so far ).

Kevin

H: Eclipse Flex 512 - Living in fear of their NAF LLU Suffering from their heavy daytime throttling.
(Was Vispa Dialup)
M: PlusNet BBYW-1 monthly6.5Mbs - They went mad the month I joined

Having worked alongside Tiscali Wholesale when I worked for <ISP> I can vouch for their uselessness.

We used both Tiscali LLU and Tiscali Datastream L2TP tunnels to deliver our service.

Non LLU areas got Datastream.

Now, re: LLU product. The two major pitfalls were in regard to router compatability, wherin many highly acclaimed routers like the 3Com Office Connect and ZyXel Prestige routers would assume the DSLAM was trying to sync in ADSL 2+ when in fact it was G.DMT. This took 18 months of emails and conference calls between us to get this resolved. In the meantime, many hundreds of <ISP's> Business customers had to purchase new routers.

The other major pitfall is fault resolution. Anyone who has ever used Woosh / BT Wholesale Fault Diagnostics and of course our old favourite, Siebel Fault reporting, will know how painfully slow these tools are.

But, they are a tech support agents' wet dream in comparison with the tools provided by Tiscali for diagnosing and reporting faults. They were inaccurate, unreliable, under featured, and generally unfit for purpose.

On the Datastream product, we didn't even have a way of checking the sync rate or noise margin on a given line.

Not to mention Tiscali Wholesale Support

Laura in Milton Keynes was an absolute star, but at the end of 2006 beginning of 2007 they moved their Wholesale Support offshore.

These guys knew so little about ADSL they swore blind that their ADSL 1 connections were capable of 8M down and 8M up. When I escalated the call to a TM, I was told no actually they are capable of 8M down and 2M up. That was the depth of their knowledge.

I cann't complain enough about Tiscali Wholesale.

The LLU product has a small amount of merit unless the subscriber experiences a line fault, or VP congestion, at which point they would be better off migrating and asking the new ISP for help, it would take less time to resolve that way!

_____________________________________________
Be*Value
Downstream: 7653K 48.5dB Loss 4.0dB SNR
Upstream:1291K 27.5dB Loss 3.0dB SNR
TechBroadband
Speed Test

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You're wrong to believe that people won't negatively associate Tiscally wholesale with Tiscally retail.

Indeed and rightly so.... Would you give money to one department of a company that seems legit and customer friendly when another area/department of the SAME company is crooked as zig-zagged stitching?

People can obviously make up their own minds, I dont care how great their wholesale service is, if one area of a company are as good as scumbags, then thanks but no thanks i wont be giving them money.

In reply to a post by izools:

............
These guys knew so little about ADSL they swore blind that their ADSL 1 connections were capable of 8M down and 8M up. When I escalated the call to a TM, I was told no actually they are capable of 8M down and 2M up. That was the depth of their knowledge.

I cann't complain enough about Tiscali Wholesale.

The LLU product has a small amount of merit unless the subscriber experiences a line fault, or VP congestion, at which point they would be better off migrating and asking the new ISP for help, it would take less time to resolve that way!

LOL about their ideas about speed........ Sounds like they were trained by the same people that train Tiscali retail staff and support at Pipex.

When i was leaving Pipex and they went through all the spiel asking me why, one of the reasons i gave was speed..... They claimed NOBODY (yes NOBODY not just me) in the UK could get faster speeds than 8Mb and Pipex provide the fastest speed possible to their customers......... That was funny enough, what to come was even funnier.

I should point out at the time i was a several years old solo 1000 customer, when i asked do you even know what solo 1000 is the line went quiet, before i heard the reply "NO".....

When i explained it was a 1Mb service they offered to switch me to their 8Mb (CAPPED) service, i declined, and insisted upon my MAC, even then they continued stating i wouldnt get faster speed elsewhere (im less than 1Km from the exchange as the crow flies and about 2.5Km real length), OBVIOUSLY i said no thankyou.

They then started trying to flog me their unreliable poorly supported telephone service (the whole call was a nightmare of stupidity from them).

Finally at the end of the call i reminded them just see they paid attention and said......
"This call has been recorded i am reminding you now you must legally provide my MAC within 5 days, if i do not get it or it is incorrect (at the time that was a big issue for Pipex users) I will turn the matter over to Ofcom and seek legal action against you for any money you take after this and your 30 days notice period"

5 days later i got the MAC........ 8 days after that the idiots mailed my PIPEX account (YES EVEN though i had used the MAC and left Pipex) to insist i owed them money........ Obviously i had enough and passed their final bout of retardation over to the bank.


Dont confuse Tiscali retail with wholesale he says......... Oh god no im not doing that, im telling everyone the company is useless top to bottom not only their main business but others they own like Pipex. Strange their WHOLESALE is spose to be so great when they are a complete shambles that cant get anything else correct.

BT Wholesale was fairly good on the whole until WBC, just niggles over stuck profiles and inflexibility re target SNRM.

BT Retail broadband on the other hand has always been a shambles.

Bob: Demon dialup >> Freeserve dialup >> BT Broadband >> Prodigynet >> Newnet >> O2 Standard.
Purple Cloud for domain, email and web space.

That's fair enough Izools, all the best.

Regards,


Ben Bird

Xilo
4.5km from Exchange
60DB Downsteam Att.
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