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Standard User jokanahan
(newbie) Fri 03-Feb-12 01:40:28
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Loads of drop outs


[link to this post]
 
Hi everyone,
After reading the continuing post from deepdishdj "Which ISP to Choose" I have joined this forum seeking help with some serious dropout issues on my BE connection via the Burgess Hill exchange in West Sussex. Like beepdishdj I am considering changing to a more reliable ISP as the service from BE in the fast few months has been pretty appalling. Does anyone know of such a provider in my area?
As well as usual internet business, I use an internet phone via sipgate and I am running BBC and ITV player, so reliability and speed are important and I don't mind paying a bit extra to get it.
The test stats copied at the bottom of this message I ran tonight. For the tests my modem is connected with no filter directly to the BT master socket with ALL other phones and devices disconnected. The modem as supplied by BE is the Thomson TG585 v7 Software Release: 8.2.7.7 which I believe is the latest.
Here are the stats with dates and times and if there is anyone out there who can help me interpret them I will be very grateful.
Humble apologies that my first ever post is so long!

Thu 2 Feb 2012 20:30
Uptime: 0 days, 0:01:57
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,191 / 9,535
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,196 / 9,438
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 10.5 / 33.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 10.0 / 9.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 482
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 2
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,886,915 / 1
......................................................................................
Thu 2 Feb 2010 23:09
After a DROPOUT connection resumed at approx 22:59
and according to the stats which follow signal was lost 27 times
since ~ 21:00, ie over a 2 hour period.
Link Information
Uptime: 0 days, 0:09:42
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 845 / 4,079
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 602 / 2,769
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.5 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 20.5 / 38.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.5 / 10.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 24 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 27 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 28 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 36 / 1,287
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 36 / 6
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,888,289 / 4
.................................................................................................
Fri 3 Feb 2012 00:22
After a DROPOUT connection resumed at approx 23:45
and according to the stats which follow signal was lost a further 32 times since 23:09, ie over a 70 minute period
Link Information
Uptime: 0 days, 0:37:16
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 143 / 4,408
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 143 / 2,527
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.5 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 16.0 / 39.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.5 / 9.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 35 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 59 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 49 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 13,167
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 45
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,888,426 / 33

Many thanks, in anticipation,
Jokanahan
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Fri 03-Feb-12 02:16:55
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Re: Loads of drop outs


[re: jokanahan] [link to this post]
 
There seems to be something quite odd going on with the Attenuation values the router is reporting
The downstream increases from 33.5db to 39 db (down) and
the Upstream starts at 10.5 and increases to 20.5 & 16.5db , this i would think is a significant jump, given line attenuation doesn't normal change in this way,

The errors are quite low (downstream) suggests a possible fault with the exchange equipment to me, or the router currently in use ,Could be a line fault ,but i would be surprised if it was such

Have you done the quiet line test to rule out any PTSN (voice) fault ?

What if anything has been done so far, Profile changes ?,Dispatched a replacement router ,? As these are two of the things that they will almost routinely do before even raising a fault with BT Openreach,
Standard User jokanahan
(newbie) Fri 03-Feb-12 02:51:21
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Re: Loads of drop outs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the advice. A quite line test just now was basicly OK. A few scatchy sounds at the start then dead quiet for about 5 minutes. No profile changes as yet, nor replacement router. I raised the issue with BE several months ago and they pointed me towards BT as there was significant line noise. BT came and checked the connection in the street, the house wall box, and the master socket inside which they replaced.

All was OK for a time and over the past 2 months the connection started to drop out. There are periods where everything holds up pretty well, then the connection will drop out every 3 or 4 minutes or so for up to 30 minutes at a time.

I haven't raised this matter with BE again, and the reason I have posted here is to try to find some opinions on these technical figures which I don't really understand, before I go back to BE.

Thanks again,

Jokanahan


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Anonymous
(Unregistered)Fri 03-Feb-12 03:23:20
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Re: Loads of drop outs


[re: jokanahan] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jokanahan:
Thanks for the advice. A quite line test just now was basicly OK. A few scatchy sounds at the start then dead quiet for about 5 minutes. No profile changes as yet, nor replacement router. I raised the issue with BE several months ago and they pointed me towards BT as there was significant line noise. BT came and checked the connection in the street, the house wall box, and the master socket inside which they replaced.

All was OK for a time and over the past 2 months the connection started to drop out. There are periods where everything holds up pretty well, then the connection will drop out every 3 or 4 minutes or so for up to 30 minutes at a time.

I haven't raised this matter with BE again, and the reason I have posted here is to try to find some opinions on these technical figures which I don't really understand, before I go back to BE.

Thanks again,

Jokanahan
Well the Target snr appears to be set to 9db, which normally is more than enough to stop disconnections, as said the increase in attenuation, each sync (from posted stats) is odd, the attenuation is normally static, or only varies by a very small amount ,
The only other times it would change are are ADSL mode changes, such ie DSL upto 8mb the reported attenuation will normally be the lowest that you would see, it increases with ADSL2+ which BE LLU is apart from some exceptions where it has been changed by support,due to the line not being able to support ADSL2+ (very long lines)

It could be a line HR (High resistance fault) developing anywhere between your master socket to the exchange, and if you are able to hear noise the general consensus is that it should be reported as a voice fault, as the quite line test should be precisely that , no crackling or similar noises, have you tried ringing your landline to see if this causes it to disconnect, or if your able to monitor the noise margins, see if by using the phone causes any significant fluctuation of the upstream SNR, as voice faults do sometimes affect those frequencies used more than the downstream
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 03-Feb-12 09:33:03
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Re: Loads of drop outs


[re: jokanahan] [link to this post]
 
I agree basically with the Anonymous, (or is there more than one?) poster's first post, about the possibility of the exchange line card. The upstream HEC errors point to that sort of thing.

Re the diagnostic action you have taken, particularly as there is the possibility of a voice fault, which if cured would automatically fix the broadband, you should not be using the master socket external socket for either type of test, but the test socket on the wall at the back in this pic. Maybe that is what you are doing, but we need to be sure.

A dangly filter may make the testing of the broadband easier, as although the plug fits it makes me nervous. Unless you only have an "active" ones like the XF-1e as that could mess up. For the phone test, obviously no filter.

The reason for using the test socket, (as described by BT in their Phone Book), is that interference from extension cabling being connected at all can be the problem, and these should be connected to the back of the removable faceplate. All extensions should stop working.

The phone you use for the Quiet line test needs to be a corded one, not cordless. Again, a cordless phone itself can mess up this test. There should be no "scratching" at anytime after the test starts. That could be exactly what you are looking for. The test will run for several minutes if you let it, to see if that occurs at intervals. A nice interesting job frown. Corded phones are dirt cheap from Amazon.

Who do you pay phone line rental to? If there is noise on the QLT you ring them, and you do not breathe a word about Broadband.

And by the way, I hope you aren't using a plug-in phone extension cable either for the broadband testing smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 05-Feb-12 14:50:24
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Re: Loads of drop outs


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
RobertoS, thank you for your input. Sorry to be so long to reply but it has been a busy 2 days.

Re. your various queries/ tips:

1. I can confirm that I used ONLY the Test socket behind the face
plate on the Master for ALL QLT's.
2. For the past 24hrs I am using ONLY XF-1e type filters.
3. The corded phone used for the tests is in excellent condition and there are no extensions used at all.
4. My phone line is rented from BT and there is no way that you can not "breathe a word about broadband". It is one of the checklist of questions asked by the BT operator when you report a fault. Q1. Do you have a broadband connection? Q2. How is it?

Having completed numerous QLT's since I received your post there was virtually continuous intermittent line noise. There would some times be big gaps between the noise. For example: as I write I have been running QLT's about 90 minutes and the line is deathly quiet and the broadband connection is stable.

On Friday afternoon (Feb 3) I reported the fault to the BT operator who arranged for an engineer to call and test the line next day.The engineer's first QLT gave a little noise, but ALL subsequent tests over the next hour where quiet. He tested all connections
from the house to the box in the street, then all the way back to the exchange, and no fault was found. He has reported this and this is where it rests for now.

I will report all of this to BE my ISP for their info and comment together with the latest set of Link info which is also attached here for any further comments that you may wish to make.

Thank you for your interest. It is a bit like hunting for a needle in a haystack and this is how it was also described by the BT engineer as well!

The Link info follows here:

Sat 4 Feb 2012 23:54

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:36:54
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 270 / 4,339
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 270 / 2,544
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.5 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 11.0 / 37.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.0 / 11.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 220 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 193 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 271 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 22 / 2,439
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 22 / 9
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,977,068 / 7

Sat 4 Feb 2012 23:56

Link Information

Link Status: Disconnected

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A

Sat 4 Feb 2012 23:58

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:00:49
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,222 / 10,439
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,204 / 8,687
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.0 / 33.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 10.0 / 9.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 225 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 194 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 277 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 15 / 147
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 15 / 1
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,977,081 / 0

Sat 4 Feb 2012 23:00

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:02:24
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,218 / 11,287
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,204 / 8,687
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.0 / 33.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 10.0 / 9.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 225 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 194 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 277 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 15 / 147
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 15 / 1
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,977,081 / 0

Sun 5 Feb 2012 01:52

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:03:59
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,294 / 11,391
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,183 / 8,968
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 16.5 / 34.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 10.0 / 9.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 281 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 224 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 389 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 208 / 17,662
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 208 / 234
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,979,721 / 215

Sun 5 Sep 2012 10:17

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 3:50:50
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,161 / 11,789
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,187 / 9,148
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.5 / 33.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.0 / 9.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 33 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 3 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 107 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 3,734 / 339,660
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 3,734 / 5,973
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,004,319 / 5,696

Sun 5 Feb 2012 13:18

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:15:06
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,144 / 10,543
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,174 / 6,976
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 16.0 / 33.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.5 / 14.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 22 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 3 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 26 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 422 / 186,702
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 422 / 294
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,026,481 / 278

Sun 5 Feb 2012 13:29

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:26:24
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,123 / 11,257
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,174 / 6,976
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 16.0 / 33.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.0 / 14.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 22 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 3 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 26 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 486 / 376,227
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 486 / 296
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,026,670 / 279

Sun 5 Feb 2012 14:29

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 1:26:57
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,149 / 11,188
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,174 / 6,976
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 16.0 / 33.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.5 / 14.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 22 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 3 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 26 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 533 / 1,196,099
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 533 / 304
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,026,712 / 283

As ever, sorry this is so long!

Jokanahan
Standard User jokanahan
(newbie) Sun 05-Feb-12 15:31:52
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Re: Loads of drop outs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Sorry folks. It seems that my last post was sent as Anonymous which was not my intention. That's what you get for being a newbie I suppose.

Thanks also to the Anonymous who replied re. the possibility of an HT fault.
The BT engineer who came yesterday tended to agree and added that they can be extremely difficult to find.

Also to confirm that there are no disconnects caused by incoming voice calls.

In addition to everything that I said in my anonymous post, I learned from the BT engineer that there has been a roll out of fibre optic cable in my area. He said that this means that I am effectively just 1Km from the exchange, with means that a super fast connection is available now.

Jokanahan
Standard User jokanahan
(newbie) Sun 05-Feb-12 21:52:07
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Re: Loads of drop outs


[re: jokanahan] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, I did mean an HR (high resistance fault) NOT an HT fault!
The past few days have been pretty challenging and the saga continues tonight (Sunday) as my log grows larger by the hour

Jokanahan
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