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Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 11:22:00
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FTTC 80/20 options


[link to this post]
 
Hi, thanks for reading this. It's my first post and hopefully someone can help me with some bright ideas!

I am looking at FTTC and need a new line, as I'm currently with Virgin and the BT line has been disconnected in the cabinet. Postcode/house number checks estimate I can get very close to the 80/20 (or 76/19.5 if you prefer) speeds.

These are my requirements, in descending order of importance:
  1. Stable connection
  2. No noticeable reduction in down- and upload speeds at any time (due congestion or point 4 below)
  3. No usage caps
  4. No restrictive traffic management (combined with point 2 above I suppose)

On top of that I want good value for money. If the points above can be accomplished by a cheaper ISP, then the decision will be based on price.

I can rule out AAISP and Zen, as they are simply too expensive for what I believe they return. SSE doesn't meet point 2 and 4 and Origin doesn't seem to be any good either.
Virgin's only package that meets all 4 requirements is the Ultimate Gamer package (200/20), but even with their customer retention offer it's more expensive compared to others. I am considering IDNET as well, but including offers etc. they are almost twice as expensive as TalkTalk, and I don't know how or why to justify that.

In order of cost over an 18 month period (including offers and new line installation fees, ascending order).

  1. Talktalk
  2. Plusnet
  3. Vodafone
  4. NowTV
  5. TalkTalk Business
  6. Virgin Ultimate Gamer
  7. IDNET


I'd like IPv6, but in my shortlist only NowTV (or Sky) offers it currently. Only TalkTalk Business and Plusnet offer the option of a static IP (which I'd also like, but not a hard requirement).

Long story short: which would you choose and why? And which would you recommend?

edit: IDNET removed due to their availability checker not working on my address and therefore not showing the correct prices. Turns out they're roughly the same price as Zen.

Edited by wutr (Wed 16-Nov-16 14:26:19)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 16-Nov-16 11:45:55
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Postcode estimators are unreliable. The reason being that there is often more than one cabinet serving a postcode, so it matters where you are within it. The checkers generally only give the first in the database.

You need to use the Address option of this checker.

Re your shortlist, it is worthwhile considering Pulse8Broadband, which uses TalkTalk Business Wholesale and possibly run better than TalkTalk Retail. A small company but with a good reputation. Also only a monthly contract.

It's also worth checking your exchange here to see if both TalkTalk and Vodafone are shown in the LLU list. If not, a bit of deeper investigation by others on this forum wrt where the FTTC actually comes from is needed. It may not be your telephone exchange.

Other than that, quite a good shortlist. Bear in mind the upstream speeds unless you go for the 80/20 product. Plusnet and TalkTalk Retail only do the 40/2 not the 40/10. That's if the upstream matters to you of course. It can matter if you stream a lot, as it can clog up with the ACKs for the downstream.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 12:00:30
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Postcode estimators are unreliable. The reason being that there is often more than one cabinet serving a postcode, so it matters where you are within it. The checkers generally only give the first in the database.
You need to use the Address option [...]

Ah thank you, yes that's what I meant. I've amended my post accordingly.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Re your shortlist, it is worthwhile considering Pulse8Broadband, which uses TalkTalk Business Wholesale and possibly run better than TalkTalk Retail. A small company but with a good reputation. Also only a monthly contract.

I remembered having looked at them in the process of comparing but I didn't write it down. I knew there was a reason but I checked again anyway (you never know). Turns out Pulse8 are more expensive than IDNET.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It's also worth checking your exchange here to see if both TalkTalk and Vodafone are shown in the LLU list.

Vodafone, TalkTalk and Sky are all available as LLU on the exchange according to Sam knows.

With regards to speed. I'm looking at 80/20 specifically.

Thanks for your reply!

Edited by wutr (Wed 16-Nov-16 12:01:57)


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Standard User jaydub
(experienced) Wed 16-Nov-16 13:29:21
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wutr:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Re your shortlist, it is worthwhile considering Pulse8Broadband, which uses TalkTalk Business Wholesale and possibly run better than TalkTalk Retail. A small company but with a good reputation. Also only a monthly contract.

I remembered having looked at them in the process of comparing but I didn't write it down. I knew there was a reason but I checked again anyway (you never know). Turns out Pulse8 are more expensive than IDNET.

Really, I've just migrated to Pulse8 and they definitely worked out cheaper than either TalkTalk Business or IDNet. The only thing I can see that might change that analysis is the cost of a vDSL router, but you would need that with IDNet anyway.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 16-Nov-16 13:47:58
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Just be aware that paying more doesn't always give you a better quality of broadband - even if support is UK based. There was a poster on here the other day who recently joined IDNet and was getting evening/peak time congestion.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
TalkTalk Business 80/20
Asus RT-AC5300 with 380.63_HGG-FINAL
My Broadband Quality Monitor
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Standard User keymaster
(committed) Wed 16-Nov-16 14:27:33
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
Hi
What about Origin Broadband?
K
Standard User tommy45
(knowledge is power) Wed 16-Nov-16 14:30:36
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:
Just be aware that paying more doesn't always give you a better quality of broadband - even if support is UK based. There was a poster on here the other day who recently joined IDNet and was getting evening/peak time congestion.

Any provider who uses BT WBMC for backhaul are at the mercy of BTW as parts of their network can and do frequently suffer from high contention issues i have experienced it twice in the time i have been with Zen using BT for backhaul And a dam sight more when i was with Plusnet who didn't get it sorted
I still am of the opinion there were BTW svlan issues affecting the connection coupled with perhaps Plusnets under provision at peak times

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 16-Nov-16 14:32:35)

Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 14:40:55
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jaydub:
Really, I've just migrated to Pulse8 and they definitely worked out cheaper than either TalkTalk Business or IDNet. The only thing I can see that might change that analysis is the cost of a vDSL router, but you would need that with IDNet anyway.


You are right. I've amended the opening post accordingly. IDNET turns out to cost roughly the same as Zen (not even including a modem yet). The availability checker didn't play ball, so I was working on the "from" prices rather than the actual 80/20 unlimited usage price. Their customer service clarified that for me over the phone.

In my case Pulse8 still works out more expensive than TalkTalk Business (not including the purchase of a modem and possible £89.89 cashback via topcashback on TTB), but is definitely cheaper than IDNET. Still no IPv6 though and +£2.00 p/m for a static IP, so TalkTalk Business makes more sense than Pulse8 in my situation.
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 14:46:33
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: keymaster] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by keymaster:
What about Origin Broadband?


I ruled out Origin (I think I mentioned it in the OP) based on reviews saying it was going downhill. I recall reading similar stories regarding plusnet, however I included TalkTalk because they seem to be doing better recently.

If anyone could comment on any of the above that would help.
Standard User keymaster
(committed) Wed 16-Nov-16 15:06:34
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Hi
Well I am out of contract with Origin and would move elsewhere if I could find better for cheaper but so far that search has been fruitless.
My experience with Origin in last 20 months has been mixed.
Price 8/10
Performance 7/10
Support at begining 2/10
Support in last year 8/10
Router if you take it 8/10 (Asus)

When I first joined (on Price) they were like clowns, everything that could go wrong did, fibre was off for 2 days, they gave me a new telephone number and it was already allocated to local school so rang off the hook with parents reporting abcent kids, customer service telling lies etc. etc.
since month 3 I have not had any issues, I have rang support a couple of times about minor questions and they were brilliant, answering very quickly and they offer 24/7 live UK telephone support on an 0800 number - who else does that for anywhere near the price?
this is my honest review.
K
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Wed 16-Nov-16 15:57:05
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Infinity is a good service, well as good as any others.

Any reason why BT is not on your list?
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Wed 16-Nov-16 16:03:46
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jaydub:
In reply to a post by wutr:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Re your shortlist, it is worthwhile considering Pulse8Broadband, which uses TalkTalk Business Wholesale and possibly run better than TalkTalk Retail. A small company but with a good reputation. Also only a monthly contract.

I remembered having looked at them in the process of comparing but I didn't write it down. I knew there was a reason but I checked again anyway (you never know). Turns out Pulse8 are more expensive than IDNET.

Really, I've just migrated to Pulse8 and they definitely worked out cheaper than either TalkTalk Business or IDNet. The only thing I can see that might change that analysis is the cost of a vDSL router, but you would need that with IDNet anyway.


Taking the monthly contract away from it all - can I ask how so?

For me P8 is £44 a month - £50 migration fee - TTB is £45.54 a month including VAT and £55 migration fee.- so that's £5 difference only

Yes P8 is monthly but the £44 is the only package they seem to do for 80/20 so there would be no price change anyway unless I wanted to drop to 40/10

You also get a lot more features with TTB which may or may not matter to some. This includes a router and stuff.

So where is the saving? am I missing the obvious here? (probably!)

Are you talking about another savings option? Or it is really all about the £41.96 saved over a 2 year period?

Edited by 23Prince (Wed 16-Nov-16 16:04:53)

Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 16:30:22
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
Infinity is a good service, well as good as any others.

Any reason why BT is not on your list?


Price. At 49.99 a month and the initial fees, even with the 125.00 reward card they're not overly competitive. They do better at 55/10 but that's not what I'm looking for.
Standard User jaydub
(experienced) Wed 16-Nov-16 16:41:29
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
In reply to a post by jaydub:
In reply to a post by wutr:
... nested quotes trimmed ...

I remembered having looked at them in the process of comparing but I didn't write it down. I knew there was a reason but I checked again anyway (you never know). Turns out Pulse8 are more expensive than IDNET.

Really, I've just migrated to Pulse8 and they definitely worked out cheaper than either TalkTalk Business or IDNet. The only thing I can see that might change that analysis is the cost of a vDSL router, but you would need that with IDNet anyway.


Taking the monthly contract away from it all - can I ask how so?

For me P8 is £44 a month - £50 migration fee - TTB is £45.54 a month including VAT and £55 migration fee.- so that's £5 difference only

Yes P8 is monthly but the £44 is the only package they seem to do for 80/20 so there would be no price change anyway unless I wanted to drop to 40/10

You also get a lot more features with TTB which may or may not matter to some. This includes a router and stuff.

So where is the saving? am I missing the obvious here? (probably!)

Are you talking about another savings option? Or it is really all about the £41.96 saved over a 2 year period?

The OP said that he ruled out P8 on cost grounds, but had included TTB and IDNet, both of which do cost more (even if by pennies), so I was just querying why.

P8 has a USP in that they offer fibre on a monthly contract; TTB does offer more, including official weekend support, but ties you into a 24 month contract. Horses for courses.

I certainly wouldn't push one over the other as different people have different priorities and will make their own minds up. Hence you went with TTB, I went with P8 and the OP may well go with another option.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 16-Nov-16 16:57:27
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jaydub:
The OP said that he ruled out P8 on cost grounds, but had included TTB and IDNet, both of which do cost more (even if by pennies), so I was just querying why.

P8 has a USP in that they offer fibre on a monthly contract; TTB does offer more, including official weekend support, but ties you into a 24 month contract. Horses for courses.

I certainly wouldn't push one over the other as different people have different priorities and will make their own minds up. Hence you went with TTB, I went with P8 and the OP may well go with another option.
Quite smile.

Plus the tech support at Pulse8 take possession of problems. Not an anonymous call centre where you have no idea what is logged for the next agent to misunderstand.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 19:43:20
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jaydub:
The OP said that he ruled out P8 on cost grounds, but had included TTB and IDNet, both of which do cost more (even if by pennies), so I was just querying why.


For me and at this point in time, TalkTalk business is significantly cheaper than Pulse8 (£125 + cost of modem over my 18 month comparison period, and 89.89 cashback on top of that). I've corrected the list accordingly when I discovered my calculations for IDNET were based on wrong information, IDNET is not on the list any more.

If possible could we leave Pulse8, IDNET and others that are significantly more expensive out of the equation for now and focus on ISPs that meet all criteria in my list, and offer good value for money at the same time? (Rather than excellent quality for a lot of money)
Standard User jaydub
(experienced) Wed 16-Nov-16 20:04:45
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
I would go with TalkTalk Business from your short list, as I think you will get significantly better support from them if you ever need it.

I assume you must be looking at the Simply Fibre package to see those cost savings, which does present a good deal, even when you have added the VAT on and taken into account the not insignificant cost of any calls you might make.

It is worth costing out how much your phone usage might cost you as it may work out more cost effective to take the Complete package which includes landline and mobile calls.
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 21:24:13
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jaydub:
I would go with TalkTalk Business from your short list [...]

I assume you must be looking at the Simply Fibre package to see those cost savings, which does present a good deal, even when you have added the VAT on and taken into account the not insignificant cost of any calls you might make.


Thanks for your input so far, you've made me double check most of my calculations! I did add VAT, and won't be making any calls.

It's interesting that TalkTalk business gives me a guaranteed minimum download speed of 60-something mbps (and if you don't get that you can leave the contract), but TalkTalk residential give me 40 mbps guaranteed. "Predicted" speeds show the same on both. But let's not dwell on that.
Standard User Kr1s69
(knowledge is power) Wed 16-Nov-16 21:44:06
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Is it urgent you switch now?

The advertising rules have just changed so now providers are quoting costs including line rental. This has seen the unwanted effect of most suppliers ending their best deals.

Hopefully this is just do they can introduce them again soon and refer back to the current price as being the baseline comparison period, but only time will tell.

Kris

BT Infinity
Ashington (Northumberland) Exchange
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 16-Nov-16 21:45:52
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
TalkTalk apparently have 7 priority levels for traffic on their network, Retail being generally on the lowest. (7 and maybe a couple higher I think).

TalkTalk Business certainly make 1, 2 and 3 available to TT Wholesale customers such as Pulse8. And no doubt for TTB direct customers.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 16-Nov-16 21:57:57
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Kr1s69:
Is it urgent you switch now?

[...]

Oh that's a very good point. Unfortunately I do need to get the new service up and running in 4 weeks time at the latest.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
TalkTalk apparently have 7 priority levels for traffic on their network, Retail being generally on the lowest. (7 and maybe a couple higher I think).

Is this also true for upload speeds? 40mbps down (guaranteed on TalkTalk residential) is not too bad, but I don't want to have my upload dropped too much, as it's the sole reason I'm switching to FTTC.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 16-Nov-16 22:27:30
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
I don't know, sorry.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 17-Nov-16 00:38:52
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Consider EE Fibre Plus (80/20) for value for money, reliability but not customer support.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 17-Nov-16 00:40:07)

Standard User wutr
(newbie) Thu 17-Nov-16 09:38:59
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Consider EE Fibre Plus (80/20) for value for money, reliability but not customer support.

Thanks for the tip. Did the maths and currently it's slightly more expensive than NowTV. Does EE's network (if it differs from BT) have any benefits over NowTV/Sky?
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Thu 17-Nov-16 10:33:36
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wutr:
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
Infinity is a good service, well as good as any others.

Any reason why BT is not on your list?


Price. At 49.99 a month and the initial fees, even with the 125.00 reward card they're not overly competitive. They do better at 55/10 but that's not what I'm looking for.


No idea what these initial fees are - You can get a landline and FTTC installed and up and running for free.

£125 gift card - £100-£150 from cashback sites as well ( I got both so I know that's accurate) and the above

Fair enough - I just wanted to throw it out there smile
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Thu 17-Nov-16 10:38:03
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wutr:
In reply to a post by Kr1s69:
Is it urgent you switch now?

[...]

Oh that's a very good point. Unfortunately I do need to get the new service up and running in 4 weeks time at the latest.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
TalkTalk apparently have 7 priority levels for traffic on their network, Retail being generally on the lowest. (7 and maybe a couple higher I think).

Is this also true for upload speeds? 40mbps down (guaranteed on TalkTalk residential) is not too bad, but I don't want to have my upload dropped too much, as it's the sole reason I'm switching to FTTC.


Yes that's correct, well I was told this by business support. I've not seen any upstream throttles - I know it varies from area to area - I get full speed all the time I try it (and I upload a LOT)

The highest will be on Symmetrical services i'd imagine. TTB do EoFTTC for £100 a month - I think that's around the 4-3 mark.

If you get the right area you can get the package discounted for 24 months so it's £45.54 including VAT and then after the 2 years you re negotiate or move on. And talking of moving, I like the fact you also get a house move/premises move per year during that contract if you need it - and you don't re start a contract, something I've fallen foul of in the past with other ISP's

As for EE's network I believe they are also using BTW - they don't have a network like TalkTalk do - as far as I know anyway?

Edited by 23Prince (Thu 17-Nov-16 10:40:13)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 17-Nov-16 10:59:02
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
EE are owned by BT tongue. Have been for a few years.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User Michael_Chare
(experienced) Thu 17-Nov-16 11:44:21
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
From what I have seen Vodafone can take 3 weeks to arrange a supply.
(if they are high on your list)

Michael Chare
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Thu 17-Nov-16 11:50:36
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
No idea what these initial fees are - You can get a landline and FTTC installed and up and running for free.
[...]


You're right, I got the infinity 1 and 2 fees mixed up. Fees for infinity 1 are 59.99, but only 9.99 for infinity 2.

That means they're slightly more than TalkTalk Business (not counting cashback, which is available on both).
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 17-Nov-16 12:34:05
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
I am on EE 40/10 since June 2014 (available March 2014), with Anytime Phone, 1,000 minutes Mobile Free to many countries etc and some other odds and ends.

£16.75 Monthly Line Rental

£24.95 Monthly Broadband and all other fixed charges.

Other variable costs tend to about another £2 per month.

Back in Many 2014, I chose the 40/10 package mainly that it cost £10 less than the 80/20.

Although the FTTC is about 10 Metres from my front door, it is about 50 M link length from the PCP followed by another 250 M to wander to my house, 300 M total.

All of the cable runs are under-ground.

Performance has been very good, starting originally about 36 Mbps Down, dropping to about 35 Mbps about 3 weeks back, when some VDSL upgrades were carried out in the PCP; but has worked up in the past week to about 37 Mbps, with occasional excursions around 38 Mbps. (On one occasion about 4 weeks back, BTW showed 100 Mbps when completed!)

Mainly from TBB tests, with frequent tests on BTW; and with a SamKnows monitoring Modem for around 5 years.

Uploads are consistent around the 9 Mbps mark.

TBB tests show "Congratulations you're faster than the average in Scotland" virtually every time.

About the only times I have contacted EE Customer Services were to move from Dial-Up to ADSL to VDSL, without problem.

============

My easiest comparison is with a daughter's experiences.

She lives about 1 mile away, on the same exchange, slightly shorter distance, totally different cable runs, mainly underground; but the final 300 M are overhead, apart from the short linking distance of 10 M for the FTTC.

For VDSL, she first went to BT, 80/20, not sure of precise variety.

My tests at both locations used a short "fully populated" Ethernet cable on every occasion; and I try to do at least 5 tests per visit to her house.

It was consistently poorer than my EE 40/10, frequently around 12 to 25 Mbps Down."clean" on QLT (as is mine).

She then changed to SKY; but whilst slightly better, still was not good.

More recently she changed back to BT, on the 55/20 package,I think, from accessing the Home Hub 5.

This is further improved relative to the two previous contracts; but initially fell distinctly short of my EE40/10, when I first tested it back in September 2016. Then it was about 33 Mbps.

It has improved since, such that about three weeks back, it was hovering around 35 to 36 Mbps; but still below my EE.

===============

It has been interesting carrying out those comparison tests, as otherwise the majority of us do not have such opportunities.

I have also noted that my daughter has had the NTE and Modem/Router moved from upstairs landing generally at the point almost furthest from the main bulk of the house, firstly downstairs to her lounge otherwise still "furthest" from the main bulk, to presently the living-room, at approximately the epicentre of the house bulk, significantly improving the general WIFi access by her reckoning. Typical solidly brick-built, 1925,

An extension has been completed very recently, opening out from the kitchen, with much of the original kitchen wall removed, so probably fine for WiFi - must re-survey the house on that aspect.

================

I am not promoting EE; but I have certainly had very good service fromit.

I do think however that one has to be wary when choosing the package in terms of speed, no matter the potential ISP.

Edited by eckiedoo (Thu 17-Nov-16 12:38:01)

Standard User wutr
(newbie) Thu 17-Nov-16 14:52:14
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Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
I see what you're saying eckiedoo. It's difficult to know my line speeds for sure as the line is not connected. Do Openreach use actual line length in their address checker, or an estimate?
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 17-Nov-16 15:36:42
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
For FTTC, it is only the final length from the (old) PCP to your location, plus the normally short (new) length from the FTTC to that PCP that carry the VDSL signals.

Unfortunately, whilst the FTTC to PCP length can usually be judged accurately by yourself, because of the close proximity and new or recent trenching/ducting signs, the PCP to House distance is much more difficult to work out, as it is not generally published.

Superficially, that PCP to my house looks reasonably that it is around 40 Metres, I know from assisting a BT technician to clean up my line on Dial-Up back in the late 1980s, that it is about 250 M long - greenfield site in 1967!

My line is totally underground, only having some "visibility" at the PCP and again as a very small junction block, on the foundations of another house, about 125 M away, in the wrong direction.

Remaking the connections on that junction box, cleared that 1980s fault.

If that final "D-side" line is overhead, you should be able to get a good idea, including any verticals up and down poles, walls etc.

As a first pass, I would allow at least 1.5 times the straight-line distance, if there are no other signs; but would have fallen far short in my own case.

------------

There is a site that gives various forecasts for performance, both ADSL and XDSL - but I can't remember its URL at present. Possibly someone else will recognise and provide it. It is the one that gives the nominal VDSL speed and the likely speed, on an address basis, thus avoiding your lack of number problem.

Personally, I would tend to go for a lower speed contract; but I don't know what happens if you later upgrade it with the same ISP. I mention this from reading on this site the problems that several have had trying to change ISPs in an attempt to improve their Broadband.

They have ended up losing their VDSL and going to the back of any queue waiting to upgrade etc.
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Thu 17-Nov-16 17:17:54
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
[...]

I do think however that one has to be wary when choosing the package in terms of speed, no matter the potential ISP.


You got me thinking there. BT's current offer on infinity 1, as mentioned before, does provide unbelievable value for money at the moment, even more so with cashback. It also has IPv6 and a 12 month contract. However upload speed is 10mbps (or 9.5 if you fancy).

Any further thoughts on this particular ISP?
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Thu 17-Nov-16 19:27:39
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
EE are owned by BT tongue. Have been for a few years.


Well this year
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Thu 17-Nov-16 19:30:03
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Only my experience on being on Infinity 2 for a year. I had congestion but BT moved me onto another pipe within a day - that was the only time I had an issue.

got full speed 24/7
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 17-Nov-16 19:31:44
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Not really.

I have been with Freeserve/Orange/Wanadoo/EE throughout from about 1997, generally satisfied etc.

My experiences with BT and SKY have been very limited, to when visiting that daughter; and SKY only when visiting a grand-daughter, so only really what has been mentioned mainly on TBB.

Given that I have a medium speed contract, I am continually taken aback how often I read that apparently faster contracts are working out in practice to be slower and/or less reliable by the various postings I read.

It is a difficult choice; and in practice only time will tell.

I haven't checked back; but in the past couple of days, there has been a posting on TBB, where that person had dropped from an 80 Mbps contract to 55(?), getting a speed increase from 13 Mbps to 16 Mbps, probably due to only the lower group of VDSL channels being used, with probably fewer losses.

As I have no need for 80 Mbps and little need even for 40, I only upgraded as I had expected the local FTTC cabinet to be quickly fully occupied. I haven't been able to get an accurate check recently; but my guestimate is that there are about 75 to 80 actual upgrades out of 96 fully equipped links, against a maximum of 288 in the Huawei 288 FTTC cabinet, since March 2014 when it was Released For Service.

The associated PCP apparently has 287 working phone lines through it, so only about 25% actual upgrades, generally in line with BT's published figures.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 17-Nov-16 19:45:56
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
EE are owned by BT tongue. Have been for a few years.
Well this year
That's the mobile network. We are talking about the landline phone and broadband network that was Orange LLU.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Thu 17-Nov-16 20:16:11
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
EE are owned by BT tongue. Have been for a few years.
Well this year
That's the mobile network. We are talking about the landline phone and broadband network that was Orange LLU.


True True, Ma bad
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Thu 17-Nov-16 21:50:14
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
At this point I think it's time to narrow it down.

The shortlist has come to this:
  1. TalkTalk Residential
  2. Plusnet
  3. BT infinity 1 (honourable mention for value, lower speeds, but IPv6)


Based on value, as quality seems to boil down to customer service with the ISPs in my list. Does anyone have any useful information on TalkTalk or plusnet in particular?
Standard User jaydub
(experienced) Fri 18-Nov-16 00:39:20
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In theory Plusnet will give you the best customer service, See here.

However I'd check the forum on this site, as it doesn't seem anything to write home about.

You are looking at the cheaper end of the market, so customer service isn't going to be great from any of them. Having said that the majority of people don't have any issues and therefore the quality of the customer service doesn't make that much difference.
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Fri 18-Nov-16 07:53:26
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jaydub:
[...]

You are looking at the cheaper end of the market, so customer service isn't going to be great from any of them. Having said that the majority of people don't have any issues and therefore the quality of the customer service doesn't make that much difference.

That's my reasoning behind it too. Thanks for the link to the TBB comparison page, I forgot about that. Does anyone know who votes/supplies data each month? Is it TBB users or just random people who stumble upon that page?
Standard User onejagjohn
(newbie) Fri 18-Nov-16 08:15:02
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
I have BT Infinity 2 - no installation fee and free homehub. Very satisfied, but realise that there may be cheaper options, but switching would men changing email address etc. and just could not be bothered. Very reliable service and constantly giving me 77Mbs download and 18 Mbs upload - within guaranteed speeds that they are contractually obliged to provide.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 18-Nov-16 08:46:02
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wutr:
In reply to a post by jaydub:
Thanks for the link to the TBB comparison page, I forgot about that. Does anyone know who votes/supplies data each month? Is it TBB users or just random people who stumble upon that page?
If you go to the Main Site in the menu at the top of the forums, you will see these forums are in the menu on the left. In there is also the comparison link. And lots of other goodies.

The logins for the main site and the forums are separate, but you can use the same username and password if you wish and the username is available. I don't think you need to login to use the comparison link, but I just stay logged in permanently anyway, both there and here. Speedtests and such then get saved to your account - useful.

So the answer to your question is, anyone who finds the main site can vote smile. Try it without a login and see. Logged in it stores your history, and you can also change your mind right up to the end of the month if you vote earlier. It doesn't count as two votes.

Note if you hover the cursor over a column you get the number of votes. You have to relate that to the number of customers each ISP has of course, and what you hear about them on the forums.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Fri 18-Nov-16 09:48:23
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: onejagjohn] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by onejagjohn:
I have BT Infinity 2 - no installation fee and free homehub. Very satisfied, but realise that there may be cheaper options, but switching would men changing email address etc. and just could not be bothered. Very reliable service and constantly giving me 77Mbs download and 18 Mbs upload - within guaranteed speeds that they are contractually obliged to provide.


Was the same for me
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Fri 18-Nov-16 11:50:43
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: onejagjohn] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by onejagjohn:
I have BT Infinity 2. [...] Very reliable service and constantly giving me 77Mbs download and 18 Mbs upload - within guaranteed speeds that they are contractually obliged to provide.

Is that an OFCOM thing or a BT specific in the T&Cs?
Standard User onejagjohn
(newbie) Fri 18-Nov-16 15:05:30
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
The minimum guaranteed sped is 73mbs - this is incorporated in to the BT contract. I actually achieve better than this - they do explain that the guaranteed speed is based on the distance from the cabin and that is why it is less than the 80mbs advertised. I am getting between 76 and 78mbs constantly regardless of time of day with no restrictions.
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Mon 21-Nov-16 16:05:27
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
TalkTalk Business apparently don't prioritise their traffic over TalkTalk residential traffic according to their customer support, contrary to what was said earlier in this topic. Whether it's true or not, I don't know.

New to my list is Cloudscape Connect. Granted, they're not as cheap as the budget ISPs, but they are slightly more than TalkTalk Business (not counting cashback) and a lot less than any of the other premium ISPs, whilst offering a 12 month contract and IPv6 is in the pipeline.

So what I would like to hear from anyone who has something to say about it is: which one should I choose?
  1. Plusnet - CS not as good as it used to be and currently suffering network issues (packet loss)
  2. TalkTalk - CS notorious but network appears OK
  3. Cloudscape Connect - Premium ISP, but consequently 50% more expensive than the above

I'm stuck. Does anyone have any real world advice on paying £15-20 p/m extra for a premium ISP over a budget one?
Standard User jaydub
(experienced) Mon 21-Nov-16 16:45:40
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Just got a very interesting response from the Cloudscape Connect line checker, which doesn't fill me with any confidence whatsoever:

"Your exchange is not currently open to competition and the only broadband service available is Openreach's IP Stream service commonly referred to as ADSL Max. While we are happy to support the IP Stream service we are unable to offer our full range of products on this line."

Utter tosh. Please feel free to check out the Marple Exchange on Samknows.

If I was going to give them the benefit of any doubt, it would be that I am on a TTB line with Pulse8 and a lot of the line checkers fail as a result, but they do give a much more accurate response."

I know they have got good reviews on ISPReview, but ....
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 21-Nov-16 17:09:56
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wutr:
I'm stuck. Does anyone have any real world advice on paying £15-20 p/m extra for a premium ISP over a budget one?


Only YOU can decide whether its worth paying a premium for a better ISP or not (mainly wrt support). Many people with bargain basement ISPs won't have issues so they won't ever need to get in touch with support yet those with complex issues will be frustrated with the overseas call centre script readers and often shout the loudest from the rooftop.

FWIW I joined TalkTalk residential back in 2010 (only ADSL2+ ISP at my flea ridden clapped out exchange back then) and had a near perfect service - low pings, line speeds 24/7 and was even given a free static IP address after begging one of their forum OCEs for one. Never had any need to call their Indian call centre. However when I wanted to move to their vdsl2 service they told me i would lose my static IP so had no choice but to move to their Business offering. My TTB line performs just as good as my TTR line did and i pay a small premium for that. Of course TTB support is very good (Warrington based) but i can count on one hand the number of times I've had to call them...

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
TalkTalk Business 80/20
Asus RT-AC5300 with 380.63_HGG-FINAL
My Broadband Quality Monitor
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Standard User wutr
(newbie) Tue 22-Nov-16 12:59:43
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jaydub] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jaydub:
Just got a very interesting response from the Cloudscape Connect line checker, which doesn't fill me with any confidence whatsoever:
[...]

I know they have got good reviews on ISPReview, but ....

Their website does leave a lot to be desired, however over the phone they seem to have all the correct information available.

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:
Only YOU can decide whether its worth paying a premium for a better ISP or not (mainly wrt support). Many people with bargain basement ISPs won't have issues so they won't ever need to get in touch with support yet those with complex issues will be frustrated with the overseas call centre script readers and often shout the loudest from the rooftop.

FWIW I joined TalkTalk residential back in 2010 (only ADSL2+ ISP at my flea ridden clapped out exchange back then) and had a near perfect service - low pings, line speeds 24/7 [...]
My TTB line performs just as good as my TTR line did and i pay a small premium for that. Of course TTB support is very good (Warrington based) but i can count on one hand the number of times I've had to call them...

For me that means TalkTalk Business has no benefits over TalkTalk Residential. For the difference in price I can at least try to deal with the call centres.

Cloudscape Connect and TalkTalk Residential differ in price by almost £20,- p/m (including cashback). I think that's worth the hassle if it comes to that (and I'm sure it will as I need a new line).
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Wed 23-Nov-16 14:34:05
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Given the government's current announcement on censorship, I can only recommend AAISP, no-one else.
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Wed 23-Nov-16 16:53:53
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Got to say I agree with this. I did get sick of having to use a VPN to get to sites that were legal but were blocked on BT
Standard User Spud2003
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 25-Nov-16 23:00:55
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
TalkTalk Business look quite attractive at the moment, for the benefit of users not named frogmella ...

There is currently £150 cashback(TopCashBack) for TT Business Complete Fibre(includes lots of extras like free calls etc) - costs £45(inc VAT)/month with 24 month contract. When you take account of cashback you're paying about £38/month over 24 months(and that includes free calls).

After the first twelve months you can break your contract with £125 early termination if you want - assuming they don't raise prices and allow you to terminate penalty free. Effectively £38/month, great customer service, free calls ... maybe worth a look
Standard User JohnR
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 27-Nov-16 18:04:13
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wutr:
Does anyone have any useful information on TalkTalk in particular?


3 major data breeches in as many years would mean a very long barge pole.....

\_0-0_/ AdsL is Hell \_0-0_/
To Infinity
Wats SUP doc.... You using too much.....
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Sun 27-Nov-16 18:22:14
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: JohnR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by JohnR:
In reply to a post by wutr:
Does anyone have any useful information on TalkTalk in particular?


3 major data breeches in as many years would mean a very long barge pole.....


Worth a shot - although it does say

Just so you know...
Unfortunately this merchant has a known tracking issue. We are busy chasing this up with the merchant and still want to give you the opportunity to earn cashback on your purchase. If your transaction does not track within 7 days, please submit a Missing Cashback Claim where our team will endeavour to chase the missing cashback.

But it's £150.80

last time I checked it was £60.

Edited by 23Prince (Sun 27-Nov-16 18:42:17)

Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sun 27-Nov-16 22:17:52
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
You might like to read the comprehensive review of Plusnet that I've just posted having been a customer of theirs for 15 years: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4518007-w...

jelv

AAISP November 2016
(Previous ISP Plusnet November 2001 to October 2016)
Telephone rental: Pulse8
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Sun 27-Nov-16 22:27:47
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jelv:
You might like to read the comprehensive review of Plusnet that I've just posted having been a customer of theirs for 15 years: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4518007-w...


Dam nice smile
Standard User 1345green
(newbie) Wed 30-Nov-16 19:17:47
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
wutr, Did you decide on anything and how did it go?

I have BT 50/10 but out of contract and its £45 p/m now with line rental. It does seem to be very good, nevertheless wanted to see if I could get better.

Talk Talk Business informed me they have 20:1 contention ratio on business broadband and 100:1 on residential. I didn't know if it's relevant for fibre but does suggest a difference between residential and business.

I'm also looking at cloudscape, pulse8, zen and what about plusnet business?

I have attached my current quality monitor to my signature, could any isp improve on that?

Standard User wutr
(newbie) Wed 30-Nov-16 19:26:05
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 1345green] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 1345green:
wutr, Did you decide on anything and how did it go? [...]

Well, yes. I was planning to post here when the service went live, as I'm still in the 14 day cooling off period should I decide to change my mind.

I ended up choosing value for money and compromised on upload speed to get BT infinity 1 (52/10). The Black Friday deal, mastercard and topcashback meant the average monthly is less than £16, it's only a 12 month contract (in case I really don't like it it won't cost the earth to cancel) and it has IPv6. So that's where I'm at at the moment.
Standard User 1345green
(newbie) Wed 30-Nov-16 20:27:15
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
Probably a good/best choice.

Thats what I am on now. We get to use all of the 50/10 (9999 / 54935) which is capped with a potential max sync rate of 23776 / 81078. To be honest it seems very good, I never noticed a slow down, if you look at my sig it will show the last 24hrs. We have never had a problem, apart from a few iffy weeks all the neighbours had as well. It's just the price now thats the problem.

When I took it out 2015 I got the quidco cashback of £180 and £100 sainsburys card, no set up fee which made the whole thing average at £5.65 p/m over 12months, until they increased the price half way through. Now after 12 months it's £45 p/m without caller ID. I took the t.v just to get extra cashback, but cancelled on 12 months when the free period stopped.

P.S my speed test was wifi and while others in the house were online.

Standard User keymaster
(committed) Wed 30-Nov-16 22:39:41
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 1345green] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 1345green:
wutr, Did you decide on anything and how did it go?

Talk Talk Business informed me they have 20:1 contention ratio on business broadband and 100:1 on residential. I didn't know if it's relevant for fibre but does suggest a difference between residential and business.


Hi
Its amazing how many of my previous suppliers quoted that line (including my current provider). I am not sure how much BS is involved in this statement but I found it made not one bit of difference and was never mentioned again after I signed the contract.
saying that I have never been a customer of TT Business.
K
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Thu 01-Dec-16 11:59:54
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: wutr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wutr:
In reply to a post by 1345green:
wutr, Did you decide on anything and how did it go? [...]

Well, yes. I was planning to post here when the service went live, as I'm still in the 14 day cooling off period should I decide to change my mind.

I ended up choosing value for money and compromised on upload speed to get BT infinity 1 (52/10). The Black Friday deal, mastercard and topcashback meant the average monthly is less than £16, it's only a 12 month contract (in case I really don't like it it won't cost the earth to cancel) and it has IPv6. So that's where I'm at at the moment.


That's a fairly good choice

My infinity 2 line runs out at midnight and I have had no problems in the 2 years I've had it - never had to call support and it's never gone down apart from in power cuts. I also found the HH5vB to be the best hub I had - the 6 was okay in my view but not earth shattering.

I had talk talk business installed about a month ago and I got a large cashback sum then. Not sure if anyone saw but the BT cashback was hitting the £250 mark a few days ago on TCB but is now back to the £110 level.

Good choice all round. Although you could save more if you switched your line rental to somewhere like Pulse8 or elsewhere as cheap (£6 a month) and then had your Infinity1 service too.

Just a suggestion.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 01-Dec-16 12:47:07
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
Pulse8 line rental at £8 is only if you take their broadband as well. I think probably MPF. Whereas their £13 rental is WLR3, and I'm not sure that as of the recent revamp BT still do their broadband products unbundled from rental. The prices are certainly higher if they do.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 60000/15448kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User 23Prince
(committed) Thu 01-Dec-16 14:17:37
Print Post

Re: FTTC 80/20 options


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Ah okay thanks for the clarification.

I believe they still do .
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