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Standard User cssuk
(newbie) Sat 15-Oct-11 20:25:36
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poor service


[link to this post]
 
was with zen a while back but left due to issues with the silly caps they had (50gb) was with o2 for a while service was ok not stellar but for the money good, came back to zen when i noticed the usage cap had gone to 100gb bear in mind i game a lot and watch a bit of tv online so ping latency is the biggie for me, i was getting pings of 28 to my server in nl which frankly was great ok 35 quid a month but look at the service, that is until a week ago, since then my ping has gone to between 36-55 and i have constant not occasional but constant pl i looked at the route its seemingly going via germany to NL ...bit weird me thinks so i contacted Zen, got a guy called Tony on who told me nothing we can do its a routing issue lets say i wasnt happy with his frankly dismissive response, i asked if my ip could perhaps be changed to attempt to resolve the issue.. ohh that wont work besides we wont do that to say i was gobsmacked with his response is an understatment i asked to speak to a senior member/manager was told i would get a call back non available now...hmmm at this point i remarked it doesnt matter and he said ok and sniggered as the phone went down, hopefully Zen records calls and will listen to this one, i thin rang back and basically ot told the same by another member of staff, i asked again to escalate the call to a maneger, following day got a a call from another member of staff not a manager who tbh started to lecture me about the internet, i wasnt happy with this at all but to be fair i was by this time a little peeved and may have been short tempered with him upshot i sent traces of my connection across requested a manager call me back i was told this would be Monday again the request for a new ip was refused with we will never do that!... ok simple question and can a MANAGER from Zen please respond on here ...why am i paying over the odds for a "superior" service what does this get me besides staff with attitude? Tech support thats frankly rude arrogant and unhelpful? i have over the years been with Zen for some time but i have to be honest if this is the norm i can now expect ?

please can someone from Zen enlighten me where the extra you are charging is going what can you offer me? my previous isp had no issues changing ip address it was done in seconds the issue got resolved whats the big deal?

finally anyone have any experience with newnet? seems i may well be leaving Zen sooner rather than later, shame really as they are based in my Home Town, keeping it local and all that, so Zen please can i have some sort of response?

BTW our Host cant help as its the isp that determines route, my isp refuses point blank to do anything the links in between will only talk to isp's i am just the idiot in the middle paying them both money to both of them to do nothing, and yes my host is changing next week as a result of their refusal to help.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 15-Oct-11 20:31:16
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Re: poor service


[re: cssuk] [link to this post]
 
It is a lot of work for an ISP to change routing just based on one customer complaint, going to this trouble is worth well more than a single customer pays them.

Assuming you were polite with them on the phone they have no excuse to be rude to you though.

If not secret maybe if you post the IP of the said server and we could post a traceroute for you to compare.

______________
Zen 8000 Active
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 15-Oct-11 20:49:07
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Re: poor service


[re: cssuk] [link to this post]
 
Changing your IP address simply wont help, so I presume they were trying to explain this to you.

Changing routing can be a complex and time consuming affair, and can have cost implications well beyond what any single zen customer pays.

If an ISP is seeing a routing issue to a well used site used by many customers, then they may adjust things.

Is the host that is adding extra latency inside or outside the Zen network?

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


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Standard User cssuk
(newbie) Sat 15-Oct-11 22:44:48
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Re: poor service


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
mm ok so as i see it and i may be wrong ips are given out in blocks, who knows maybe the issue wouldnt be solved by the change of ip but i suspect a change to a different block of ip would help, it has in the past when i have encountered this sort of issue, another thing i dont understand is i am routed firstly up the country to go back down to london totally bypassing manchester then across to Germany for 3 hops then back to NL, now forgive me for being blunt but any one can see that simply doesnt make sense, in no way can that be described as a better route, previous isps (o2) had no issue changing my ip and yes i was on a static one with them took the guy 5 mins and done wheres the big deal?

for what its worth i know its a load balance issue as during the day i revert to my old Manchester london nl route via level 3 network not the rubbish route i am saddled with

Tracing route to gs07.xch.nl [87.238.170.57]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 10 ms 8 ms 10 ms losubs.subs.llu1.mbr-roch.zen.net.uk [62.3.82.20
]
3 9 ms 8 ms 9 ms ae0-184.cr2.mbr-roch.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.185]
4 10 ms 9 ms 10 ms ae2-0.cr2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.53]
5 9 ms 9 ms 10 ms xe-1-1-0.man11.ip4.tinet.net [77.67.66.101]
6 25 ms 16 ms 16 ms xe-3-0-0.lon10.ip4.tinet.net [89.149.187.21]
7 16 ms 16 ms 17 ms 213.200.77.234
8 104 ms 24 ms 25 ms DUOCAST.gigabitethernet3-1.ar4.AMS2.gblx.net [20
8.48.33.246]
9 23 ms 24 ms 23 ms gs07.xch.nl [87.238.170.57]

thats the route ping etc looks fine on there but load it and it starts dropping packets on hop 7 and 8 massively, funnily enough Tonight i am via Manchester last few days i have been via Leeds.

whats really bugged me is the attitude of the staff which i have never had before from Zen i fugure i am paying for a premium service so expect to get it if i want fobbing off and pl i can pay plusnet etal a Tenner a Month, i work in Customer Service myself and know what its like to have an@@@@@ on the other end screaming at you so i dont.
Standard User uno
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 16-Oct-11 00:07:27
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Re: poor service


[re: cssuk] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cssuk:
mm ok so as i see it and i may be wrong ips are given out in blocks, who knows maybe the issue wouldnt be solved by the change of ip but i suspect a change to a different block of ip would help


Very much doubtful if it would. All Zen's IP addresses will be originated from the same AS number.

for what its worth i know its a load balance issue as during the day i revert to my old Manchester london nl route via level 3 network not the rubbish route i am saddled with


As far as I can see, the destination do take a full feed from Level3 but Zen do not appear to. As such, if the far end drop their Level3, or have higher preferences for the others (Global Crossing, KPN etc), the route will change - something Zen cannot stop from happening.

Another thing to consider is the reverse route from the server to you. This could be via a completely different path, which could be where the problem is.

Matt

-
uno Broadband
t: 0808 221 8642
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Manchester Speedtest.net Host
ISP Representative Azzaka
(isp) Mon 17-Oct-11 11:45:36
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Re: poor service


[re: cssuk] [link to this post]
 
Morning,

I can only apologise for the service you have had so far when dealing with support. All calls are recorded and as such I can pull the phone records for you.

We wont swap the IP's as all IP's are static and not dynamic. You can regrade to 8IP's at a cost if you have a single IP, however this will not make a difference which has been siad before.

Last week we did did note a few maintainence windows that caused a few issues and I feel your issues may either be due to this or these could have added to the problems you are/were seeing. The escalation should have been raised straight away however on weekends we do not have Team Leaders in we do have Team Seniors which should have the ability to help. Again if you did not recieve the call back or you felt you were not being treated with respect then this needs to be loooked into.

If you would like to contact me either by PM or phone, I will discuss this futher and hopefull find a resolution to your issue.

Kindest Regards,

Leo Goile
---
ZeN Internet
Technical Support
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I Sync', I Auth', therefore I am.
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The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User cssuk
(newbie) Mon 17-Oct-11 19:51:03
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Re: poor service


[re: Azzaka] [link to this post]
 
thanks for the response, i have since spoken to zaheer i believe his name was and he will pass on my details so you can contact me, look forward to it
Standard User Acidic
(newbie) Thu 20-Oct-11 00:47:52
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Re: poor service


[re: cssuk] [link to this post]
 
Hi cssuk,

Just to clarify/confirm what others have said and provide a little more information...

All Zen DSL address blocks are originated from the same AS (AS13037) and announced to our peers/transit suppliers in exactly the same way, therefore changing your IP address will not change how traffic is being routed to you (unless the remote AS [ISP]) is doing something odd to manipulate routes to us which is extremely unlikely).

Over the last week or so we have changed transit providers from Level3 and Sprint to NTT and TiNet which accounts for the change in routing to AS31477 (87.238.170.57). We also experienced an issue with one of our core links which is why you'll have noticed a shift in path out of the Zen network. Currently the preferred path between Rochdale and London is via Manchester rather than Leeds (Usually it's via Leeds).

If the issue you see is on the hops within the DuoCast network then the issue is potentially with the return path from them to Zen which unfortunately is not something that we have any control over.

I realise none of the above really changes anything, but hopefully it provides a better understanding on what's going on.

Regards,

Carl
Standard User cssuk
(newbie) Thu 20-Oct-11 06:49:00
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Re: poor service


[re: Acidic] [link to this post]
 
thanks for the response, based on what you have said my current ping in game is 40ms with horrible latencey i used to be 28ms rock solid great connection, your pretty much telling me what i suspected that the itnet change was initiated from Zens end, this was denied by members of your Tech support my current trace is shown below notice the weird ip @ hop 7 and the large number of hops involved, the server host is emphatic the issue isnt them, your convinced its not you, i bet you swapped to itnet just over a week and a half ago as thats when all this started, who controls hop 7? thats where the issue is, it isnt shown on this particular case but if i watch a live ping plot that hop spikes a lot as does hop 12, its pretty academic to be honest as i am going to move the server shortly because of hop 12 but for my own peace of mind can you tell me? if the server move doesnt solve the issue then am afraid i will be going to another ISP, as the results here seem to be duplicated on other servers including uk based ones then that will probably be sooner rather than later.

1 <1 ms 1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms losubs.subs.llu1.mbr-roch.zen.net.uk [62.3.82.20
]
3 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms ae0-184.cr2.mbr-roch.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.185]
4 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms ae2-0.cr2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.53]
5 10 ms 10 ms 11 ms xe-1-1-0.man11.ip4.tinet.net [77.67.66.101]
6 17 ms 17 ms 16 ms xe-1-0-1.lon11.ip4.tinet.net [89.149.185.166]
7 16 ms 17 ms 17 ms 4.68.110.113
8 26 ms 24 ms 25 ms ae-52-52.csw2.London1.Level3.net [4.69.139.120]

9 18 ms 17 ms 18 ms ae-58-223.ebr2.London1.Level3.net [4.69.153.137]

10 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms ae-47-47.ebr2.Amsterdam1.Level3.net [4.69.143.77
]
11 24 ms 23 ms 24 ms ae-2-52.edge3.Amsterdam1.Level3.net [4.69.139.16
9]
12 135 ms 49 ms 25 ms unknown.Level3.net [212.72.33.178]
13 25 ms 25 ms 33 ms gs07.xch.nl [87.238.170.57]
******************************************************
THIS IS A LONDON BASED SERVER with a different host


1 <1 ms 1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 10 ms 9 ms 10 ms losubs.subs.llu1.mbr-roch.zen.net.uk [62.3.82.
]
3 13 ms 10 ms 10 ms ae0-184.cr2.mbr-roch.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.185]
4 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms ae2-0.cr2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.53]
5 9 ms 12 ms 10 ms xe-1-1-0.man11.ip4.tinet.net [77.67.66.101]
6 20 ms 16 ms 50 ms xe-2-1-0.lon11.ip4.tinet.net [89.149.185.229]
7 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms 4.68.110.113
8 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms 195.50.122.154
9 18 ms 19 ms 17 ms 217.163.31.66

lo and behold hop 7 again this suggests that despite all the opinions to the contrary i have been given that it is in fact a uk based issue and if its not on zens network it most certainly is on one of your peers, a little investigation would go a long way tbh, thats the kind of service i expect for 35.00 a month not the read it off a script stuff i can get from other isps, perhaps you can now understand my frustration

comments?
ISP Representative SkyFire
(isp) Thu 20-Oct-11 14:25:38
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Re: poor service


[re: cssuk] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

What are you aiming to demonstrate with the traceroutes you've posted? From the information provided here all there is to comment on is the route data is taking - to get to the host. It doesn't illustrate a problem with that route and the number of hops here does not constitute a problem.

The host in both examples is also responding in a reasonable amount of time.

There's doesn't seem to be anything weird about the 7th hop. It's responding in a similar time to the hops immediately preceeding it in both traceroutes.

In any case, if the destination host responds in a timely fashion, without packet drops, it doesn't matter whether a traceroute shows preceeding hops dropping packets. Return paths from individual "hops" may be different than from the destination host or the hop may simply not prioritise responding to ping/traceroute.

Your best bet for illustrating the issue is pinging with a reasonably sized packet (something like 1400 bytes) for a reasonable time at a time when the problem is occurring - to see if packets are being lost at some point on the way. (ping -n 100 -l 1400 87.238.170.57). And see what % packet loss it reports.

ta,
Phil.

--
Phil Long
ZeN Performance and Process Improvement Manager
15.4" MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt- raaa!

Please note, I will not respond to unsolicited private messages.
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
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