User comments on ISPs
  >> Zen Internet


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User Ohmygawd
(newbie) Fri 04-Aug-17 22:42:05
Print Post

Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[link to this post]
 
I noticed today that emails seemed very thin on the ground and my wife hadn't received an email she was expecting so after much head scratching I thought I'd have a look at the Status and Service Alerts pages on the Zen portal. Found this service alert;
From Thursday 3 August Zen's mail servers will be honoring SPF records as published by sending domains.
Where SPF experiences a SPF FAIL we will reject this email.
If emails are getting rejected for failing SPF we advise to check and confirm your SPF records are adequate for your domain.
For domains held with Zen please call our Support teams who can offer assistance.
Posted: Thu, 03/08/2017 15:49 by Paul Stead

I own two domains and for years I have had these set up as forwarders, sending all email from about 6 separate email addresses to the Zen mail server and I can then pick them all up using Outlook. This is now just about impossible and I've found that a number of important emails have bounced back to clients without me knowing. Zen support told me to add a SPF record to my domains but this has had no effect and I can't see how it would work with forwarding.

I'm fairly brassed off at this but hey ho, that's the internet. However, what I'd really like is a solution, has anyone else experienced this and found a workaround? The only temporary solution I've found if to forward the emails to a Gmail account that obviously doesn't use SPF, but it's not ideal. I've done some research and the concensus seems to be that SPF [censored] up forwarding and there isn't a solution but I'm open to any ideas.
Standard User caffn8me
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 08:54:43
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Ohmygawd] [link to this post]
 
What SPF does is to specify which mail servers are permitted to send email from a particular domain. What you seem to be having problems with is receiving email from other domains. If the email is being sent to one of the domains you use, your SPF records are irrelevant. Forwarding is not part of the problem.

It sounds to me as thought Zen has now implemented DMARC, which is good practice (and on my to-do list), and that the people who are sending to you are using mail servers which don't accord with their domain's SPF records. This is quite likely when people have mobile devices which only ever use one authenticated SMTP server for sending for all their accounts.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sat 05-Aug-17 09:08:23
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Ohmygawd] [link to this post]
 
I also found that SPF was broken by forwarding which led me to migrating from my own mail server to Google mail instead.


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User caffn8me
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 09:14:47
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Got it. The senders may have valid SPF records for their domains but then email gets forwarded by the receiving domain registrar's server to Zen. Zen sees this as being email coming from the receiving domain registrar's server and not an authorized server for the sending domain.

The solution is to host email accounts on the MX server for the receiving domain or change the MX record for that domain to Zen - with Zen's support.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 09:49:00
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by caffn8me:
The solution is to host email accounts on the MX server for the receiving domain or change the MX record for that domain to Zen - with Zen's support.


Yes SPF, and DMARC essentially remove some of the legacy flexibility of the SMTP protocol. However since pretty much every email mailbox has a sending server alongside, its not a hard one to resolve. The places where it has broken down is where you had £1 webhosts offering incoming email mailboxes without an SMTP server.

Anyone whom runs their own domain can configure SPF as they like, and/or choose to implement DMARC.

They seem to work in improving the mails delivered successfully stats . Anyone whom sends emails to the big USA ISPs will find they need both or the mail is blackholed frown

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 09:51:03
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Ohmygawd] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ohmygawd:
I own two domains and for years I have had these set up as forwarders, sending all email from about 6 separate email addresses to the Zen mail server and I can then pick them all up using Outlook..


Perhaps the domain name company can supply a POP/IMAP mail server, and you can route your addresses on your two domains to that server. Then no forwarding required.

With the advantage that if you were to change ISP you wouldn't need to adjust anything.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sat 05-Aug-17 10:11:12
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
From 10 years ago http://www.openspf.org/FAQ/Forwarding
Standard User Ohmygawd
(newbie) Sat 05-Aug-17 15:58:04
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Here's the response from Zen, pretty much confirms what I thought, I cannot continue to use forwarding.

Thanks for getting in touch. The only way to enable forwarding of emails without rejection by us is for the forwarding mail server to enable sender rewriting, which would resolve the issue:

- http://www.openspf.org/SRS
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Rewriting_Scheme

So it may be worth asking your domain provider if they would be willing to do this. Alternatively you would likely need to disable forwarding and collect the mail from somewhere directly.

The current issue is being caused by the fact that the forwarding email server is technically impersonating the original sender addresses when it forwards the message. If the sender domain has an SPF record present, telling us to reject any emails from their domain name which haven't been sent from their mail server, we will now do so.


I've now sorted out POP3 and smtp with my web hosting company who were very helpful and efficient so the issue is now resolved. I'm still a bit narked that Zen didn't seem to realise what a devastating effect this policy implementation would have on any customer who is using forwarding and I strongly expect there are number of users out there who are wondering why they are no longer receiving many emails. The odd thing is that some emails were getting through, just enough to make you think there's nothing wrong.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sat 05-Aug-17 16:16:35
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Ohmygawd] [link to this post]
 
I think this quote is typical of the broke philosophy of SPF "If your forwarding runs through a commercial service like pobox.com, you shouldn't have to do anything. They have to change with the times, and perform the above rewriting automatically for you."
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 17:26:34
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
SPF is a "solution" created by the big boys (AOL, verizon, and similar) whom handle tens of millions of mailboxes and even a 0.5% decrease in spam is a significant reduction in their costs (CPU, storage, heat, electric, A/C etc).

Yes, by design SPF and latterly DMARC, break the flexible nature of the 1970s SMTP standard, but its now ~40 years later, and the network is no longer a cooperation of universities but has all forms of human life.

We now need locks on our doors, and policemen in the street. Things change.

Nobody has to accept SMTP mail sent at them, like you don't have to have a letter box in your door. smile

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sat 05-Aug-17 17:38:33
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
A quick peek in my spam folder tells me SPF doesn't work
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 17:46:57
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
A quick peek in my spam folder tells me SPF doesn't work

Unfortunately neither your or I have a control - a copy internet without SPF or DMARC.

DMARC is probably more effective, but a pain to configure, unless you use one of the big mail hosts that does all the work (e.g. Google GSuite, Microsoft Exchange 365, or similar).

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM

Edited by jchamier (Sat 05-Aug-17 17:47:14)

Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sat 05-Aug-17 17:52:31
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Thinking before the time that SPF existed, there was Spam and forwarding worked.
Now that SPF exists, there is Spam but forwarding doesn't work.
It's quite obvious that SPF hasn't stopped Spam but has stopped forwarding.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 18:39:25
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I think you're being deliberately obtuse smile

Forwarding can work, if the forwarding is SPF aware - they've only had 10 years to get that right. Some might say the forwarding company are being lazy not updating the systems. Do they understand STARTTLS either?

SPF has had an impact in reducing total spam, but maybe not in your spam folder. Try asking the Gmail admins wink

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sat 05-Aug-17 18:49:41
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
I think you're being deliberately obtuse smile
I kept my reasoning simple so it was obvious. Unfortunately you chose to resort to insults smile
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 19:05:05
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
I kept my reasoning simple so it was obvious. Unfortunately you chose to resort to insults smile
I wasn't meaning to be insulting. Your reasoning seemed limited to your personal experience, rather than the scale of a large ISP. At the individual level many technical facilities don't seem to "work" but definition of that word is complex smile

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Aug-17 19:35:44
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Anyone whom runs their own domain can configure SPF as they like, and/or choose to implement DMARC.

We do exactly that, our mail server supports several domains in which has its own MX and SPF Records which woks great and haven't had any issue since we have put the SPF in place.

In reply to a post by jchamier:
They seem to work in improving the mails delivered successfully stats . Anyone whom sends emails to the big USA ISPs will find they need both or the mail is blackholed frown

SPF will be fine for those big USA ISP's, DMARC is just a feature that combines both DKIM and SPF, so all DMARC does is check what the sending server is using and will use that.

So as long as you have SPF and/or DKIM installed you should be fine.

And we already know that SPF is there so that the receiving end know that the server that sent the email is allowed to send emails for that domain, DKIM is just there to stop tampering of the actual email, so you can tell it to protect the FROM, TO, DATE, SUBJECT, MESSAGE-ID etc, granted this also needs to have a RSA Public Key stored in each of the domains DNS records for this to work.

So by using both SPF and DKIM you are protecting your emails from tampering and also making sure they came from the correct legit mail server.

Now do I think everyone should install DMARC, if your doing a fresh install of your server that consists of a mail server with one or more domains with their own MX Record, then yes, if not then just install SPF and / or DKIM.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | BQM #4 Linksys WRT 3200 ACM
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Aug-17 19:37:34
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
A quick peek in my spam folder tells me SPF doesn't work

Unfortunately neither your or I have a control - a copy internet without SPF or DMARC.

DMARC is probably more effective, but a pain to configure, unless you use one of the big mail hosts that does all the work (e.g. Google GSuite, Microsoft Exchange 365, or similar).

I agree 100% there.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | BQM #4 Linksys WRT 3200 ACM
Standard User Sandgrounder
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Aug-17 22:23:04
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Ohmygawd] [link to this post]
 
I have used forwarding to my Zen address since I joined them.

Unless I have not understood this correctly, I think I now know why some important emails have gone missing.

I really do not have the time at the moment to sort this out.

So ZEN, if you have changed this without telling us then PLEASE PUT IT BACK HOW IT WAS. and if you haven't changed anything then please let us all know here so that we can stop wasting time trying to sort it out.

PS I do not regard your silly news letter of informing us about anything. That goes staight in the bin.



Line One:- Zen Fibre 1 - DrayTek Vigor 2860ac
Line Two:- Andrews and Arnold - DrayTek Vigor 2600
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Aug-17 23:14:22
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Sandgrounder] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Sandgrounder:
I have used forwarding to my Zen address since I joined them.
Then its your provider where you set up the forwarding that is in the wrong. Review the above posts for more, and consider using your forwarding provider to supply POP or IMAP services, not forward to Zen.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User Sandgrounder
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Aug-17 23:26:46
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I have reviewed the above posts and I am still not impressed that this was implented without specific warning from Zen.

My family use more than one forwarder for a whole range of email requirements. This is just a mess. A real mess !

Why can Zen not give us the option add whitelist forwarders to our own email addresses?



Line One:- Zen Fibre 1 - DrayTek Vigor 2860ac
Line Two:- Andrews and Arnold - DrayTek Vigor 2600
Standard User Sandgrounder
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Aug-17 23:39:26
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Sandgrounder] [link to this post]
 
I now think that even Zen can no longer communicate with me as my registered account email address goes through a forwarder.

This needs to be sorted. How many other customers have they messed up?

Edit: And it looks like Zen are going to be deleting my emails from Andrews and Arnold as well.



Line One:- Zen Fibre 1 - DrayTek Vigor 2860ac
Line Two:- Andrews and Arnold - DrayTek Vigor 2600

Edited by Sandgrounder (Sat 05-Aug-17 23:48:27)

Standard User marjohn56
(newbie) Sun 06-Aug-17 17:29:19
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Sandgrounder] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Sandgrounder:
PS I do not regard your silly news letter of informing us about anything. That goes staight in the bin.


Then you really only have yourself to blame, newsletters are there for a reason,

SPF, DMARC & DKIM are the best things to happen for quite a while and its great to see Zen implementing them . Remember that it prevents scammers and spammers from posting pretending to be you, something I used to see quite a bit of on my domain, now it's fading away.

If it was down to me, I would not allow ANY forwarding either, period.

HG612 -> pfSense 2.4B

--------------------------------------------------------
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
--------------------------------------------------------
Standard User kwillers
(newbie) Sun 06-Aug-17 19:43:37
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: marjohn56] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by marjohn56:
In reply to a post by Sandgrounder:
PS I do not regard your silly news letter of informing us about anything. That goes staight in the bin.


Then you really only have yourself to blame, newsletters are there for a reason,

SPF, DMARC & DKIM are the best things to happen for quite a while and its great to see Zen implementing them . Remember that it prevents scammers and spammers from posting pretending to be you, something I used to see quite a bit of on my domain, now it's fading away.

If it was down to me, I would not allow ANY forwarding either, period.


Totally Agree
If everyone took the time to set up SPF,DMARC and DKIM the spammers would find it almost impossible to "steal" a domain
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-Aug-17 23:37:42
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: marjohn56] [link to this post]
 
Well I think either using SPF and / or DKIM or just using DMARC is the way to go and once everyone are using those we could all just block emails that are not using any of them.

Until then you will get spam.

Without SPF anyone can send emails stating it was legit and was sending them on your behalf, without DKIM people (man in the middle) could modify your emails contents on route.

Using both together or DMARC you are protecting your domain from being blacklisted, well less chance in being blacklisted and you are protecting the contents in your email.

So in my books I have no issues with SPF, DKIM and DMARC.

Our Servers only use SPF atm but for emails that need for the content to say as it was sent I had written a DKIM script that handled that which works great until we get around to fully moving over to DMARC.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | BQM #4 Linksys WRT 3200 ACM
Standard User marjohn56
(newbie) Mon 07-Aug-17 08:23:22
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by PaulKirby:
Our Servers only use SPF atm but for emails that need for the content to say as it was sent I had written a DKIM script that handled that which works great until we get around to fully moving over to DMARC.


I run my own personal mailserver. When I moved to Zen a few months ago all three were implemented, apart from those I also use a cloud based Spam filtering service.

You can probably tell I hate spam .( not the tinned variety - which I quite like)

HG612 -> pfSense 2.4B

--------------------------------------------------------
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
--------------------------------------------------------
Standard User savamac
(member) Thu 10-Aug-17 11:41:06
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Ohmygawd] [link to this post]
 
Does this explain my lack of emails from BA.com, Nextdoor.co.uk, Homebase.co.uk and others (which I can't list as I can't tell if they've sent me emails or not) ??

What's going on ?

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Thu 10-Aug-17 12:04:37
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
Depends. Do you forward these emails to a Zen mail server?
Standard User savamac
(member) Thu 10-Aug-17 19:43:44
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
Depends. Do you forward these emails to a Zen mail server?


Indeed : alll my email goes to zen123etc@zen.co.uk and has done so for many years.

So : what's gone wrong ?

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Thu 10-Aug-17 19:50:07
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
According to the first post, SPF is broken by forwarding, but now Zen have starting rejecting mail if SPF fails, so forwarded mail gets rejected.
Standard User savamac
(member) Thu 10-Aug-17 19:58:33
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Sandgrounder] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Sandgrounder:
I have used forwarding to my Zen address since I joined them.

Unless I have not understood this correctly, I think I now know why some important emails have gone missing.

I really do not have the time at the moment to sort this out.

So ZEN, if you have changed this without telling us then PLEASE PUT IT BACK HOW IT WAS. and if you haven't changed anything then please let us all know here so that we can stop wasting time trying to sort it out.

PS I do not regard your silly news letter of informing us about anything. That goes staight in the bin.


What newsletter was this ????

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User savamac
(member) Thu 10-Aug-17 20:02:10
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
According to the first post, SPF is broken by forwarding, but now Zen have starting rejecting mail if SPF fails, so forwarded mail gets rejected.


So what is ZEN doing to fix this ??? At the end of the day, I had a facility that worked, now it doesn't - I haven't changed anything.

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User uno
(knowledge is power) Thu 10-Aug-17 20:22:56
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
It's not for Zen to fix really.

The relayer needs to implement SRS instead which solves this particular problem.

Matt

uno Communications
t: 0333 773 7700
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Sheffield Speedtest.net Host

Edited by uno (Thu 10-Aug-17 20:24:07)

Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Thu 10-Aug-17 20:37:34
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by uno:
It's not for Zen to fix really.
Well I think it is. They broke it after all
Standard User uno
(knowledge is power) Thu 10-Aug-17 20:40:21
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
They didn't really "break" anything though - it's not as if they're rejecting email without good reason; they altered their servers to adhere to SPF records set by the domain owner.

Most reputable email providers would do the same too. SPF isn't new.

Matt

uno Communications
t: 0333 773 7700
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Sheffield Speedtest.net Host
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 10-Aug-17 22:21:30
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
Well I think it is. They broke it after all

Cheapskate web hosts offering forwarding as the default, for tiny fee a year, made an ASSUMPTION that things on the internet would stay the same.

Assumptions in technology industry are dangerous.

Hosts should either use proper SRS forwarding as Matt says, or should be the destination mailbox.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User savamac
(member) Fri 11-Aug-17 08:10:19
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by uno:
It's not for Zen to fix really.

The relayer needs to implement SRS instead which solves this particular problem.

Matt


Nonsense : whoever "broke" the facility i.e. Zen (who made the change) needs to "repair" it.

I'm moving this discusiion over to the Zen-hosted forum (they've been very quiet so far).

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User savamac
(member) Fri 11-Aug-17 08:11:38
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by uno:
It's not for Zen to fix really.
Well I think it is. They broke it after all


Agreed !!

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User savamac
(member) Fri 11-Aug-17 10:39:57
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
In reply to a post by uno:
It's not for Zen to fix really.

The relayer needs to implement SRS instead which solves this particular problem.

Matt


Nonsense : whoever "broke" the facility i.e. Zen (who made the change) needs to "repair" it.

I'm moving this discusiion over to the Zen-hosted forum (they've been very quiet so far).


I had a bizarre on-line "support" session with Zen this morning. They admit to having made a change, but don't offer any solution, preferring to bang on about my out-going email server - they wanted to make sure it ISN'T mailhost.zen.co.uk, despite the fact that (a) their setup instructions tell you to use that, and (b) that's exactly what I've used for 9 years with no issues. In any case, what does an out-going server have to do with me not RECEIVING emails ? I'm really not impressed !!!

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User kwillers
(learned) Fri 11-Aug-17 13:33:14
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
So Zen being a GOOD ISP implement a industry standard mechanism which breaks a mail forwarding system which does not adhere to the industry standard. You think is Zens problem to fix ?

hmmm, you might be waiting a while.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Fri 11-Aug-17 14:31:17
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: kwillers] [link to this post]
 
Without giving their customers time to prepare, disgraceful frown
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 11-Aug-17 18:55:41
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
Without giving their customers time to prepare, disgraceful frown

Customers whom are choosing to use a pretty awful third party forwarding service that doesn't meet industry standards?

Yes, perhaps Zen should have sent a mail to all their email server users saying "we are enabling a change in 30 days that MIGHT cause you a problem if you use mail forwarding. If a problem occurs you will have to take it up with the forwarding company".

Too many domain hosts / mail forwarding companies are fly by night organisations with no idea of quality. Zen is not that!

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User Sandgrounder
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-Aug-17 20:20:02
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
It would not be fair to mention the name of the company I use for mail forwarding, but they are not fly-by-night.

This issue was definitely caused by Zen choosing not to tell us before this change was implemented.

I now have all of my incoming email working again; forwarded just as it was before but with a correct SPF entry in my domain records. (probably my fault the old one was wrong!).

I am now more concerned about the comment on outgoing mail via mailhost.zen.co.uk. Like the other poster I have been doing this for ages - in my case since I joined Zen in 2003.

Perhaps somebody from Zen will tell us what all that was/is about.



Line One:- Zen Fibre 1 - DrayTek Vigor 2860ac
Line Two:- Andrews and Arnold - DrayTek Vigor 2600
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-Aug-17 20:30:21
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
The solution is clear to anyone who thinks about the problem and its cause, something that unfortunately you seem to be unwilling to accept. The problem isn't Zen's to fix but rather your e-mail forwarder. Accept that and move on.
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Sat 12-Aug-17 04:11:03
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
The solution is clear to anyone who thinks about the problem and its cause, something that unfortunately you seem to be unwilling to accept. The problem isn't Zen's to fix but rather your e-mail forwarder. Accept that and move on.

Exactly, we run several domains on our server each have their own MX and SPF / TXT DNS records.

The SPF / TXT DNS Records state what IP(s) are allowed to send emails on behalf of those domains any other IP used should fail (assuming you have the -all at the end set)

I can set up forwarding to any mail provider (well all the ones I have tried) and it works fine and passes all SPF checks with them.

So maybe the OP hasn't setup the SPF / TXT DNS record 100% correctly for their domain(s) ?

I know we were hit an miss for a little while that got us blacklisted due to our mail server sending emails from several domain, once SPF was correctly setup and we went through the process of removing the blacklist all was then fine and have been for the last 5 or so years.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | BQM #4 Linksys WRT 3200 ACM
Standard User mpellatt
(member) Sat 12-Aug-17 07:48:08
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: Sandgrounder] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Sandgrounder:
This issue was definitely caused by Zen choosing not to tell us before this change was implemented.

As someone else has said, Zen could have given chapter and verse on the configurations that would have been affected by this change.

It wouldn't have been a short message. Most people's eyes would have glazed over before they finished reading.

I can tell you precisely how many people would have taken action on it before they stopped receiving emails.

Such is life in support.
Standard User savamac
(member) Sat 12-Aug-17 08:13:16
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
The solution is clear to anyone who thinks about the problem and its cause, something that unfortunately you seem to be unwilling to accept. The problem isn't Zen's to fix but rather your e-mail forwarder. Accept that and move on.


Sorry - that's nonsense. It's akin to saying "company Blogs has implemented a change which damages the service to its customers because of a bug in Windows 10, therefore Microsoft should fix the bug" - dream on.

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User savamac
(member) Sat 12-Aug-17 08:16:27
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
Well I think it is. They broke it after all

Cheapskate web hosts offering forwarding as the default, for tiny fee a year, made an ASSUMPTION that things on the internet would stay the same.

Assumptions in technology industry are dangerous.

Hosts should either use proper SRS forwarding as Matt says, or should be the destination mailbox.


As far as I know, names.co.uk are not "cheapskate web hosts" - any comment ?

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User marjohn56
(newbie) Sat 12-Aug-17 09:12:53
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
In reply to a post by MCM:
The solution is clear to anyone who thinks about the problem and its cause, something that unfortunately you seem to be unwilling to accept. The problem isn't Zen's to fix but rather your e-mail forwarder. Accept that and move on.


Sorry - that's nonsense. It's akin to saying "company Blogs has implemented a change which damages the service to its customers because of a bug in Windows 10, therefore Microsoft should fix the bug" - dream on.


So you would rather Zen not implement a global standard because it means your upstream mail forwarder has been lax in implementing a technology that has been on the horizon for a long time?

That would mean Zen would have to check every single mail forwarder that connects to their systems before they implement it, and that isn't ever going to happen.

The problem is NOT of Zens' making, the problem is poor implementation by the upstream host.

I assume that Zen have also implemented these additions on their outbound too, as I see no complaints from anyone saying their outbound mail has not been delivered then I also assume that Zen have correctly updated their systems to handle SPF etc.

If you have your own domain name and email, then there is some requirement that you manage it from time to time, otherwise get a gmail account!

HG612 -> pfSense 2.4B

--------------------------------------------------------
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
--------------------------------------------------------
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 12-Aug-17 10:39:06
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
As far as I know, names.co.uk are not "cheapskate web hosts" - any comment ?

Then call their tech support and get them to fix it. Or switch to a mailbox on their system, so no forwarding.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User rbn197
(newbie) Sat 12-Aug-17 11:12:08
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: marjohn56] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by marjohn56:
So you would rather Zen not implement a global standard because it means your upstream mail forwarder has been lax in implementing a technology that has been on the horizon for a long time?

That would mean Zen would have to check every single mail forwarder that connects to their systems before they implement it, and that isn't ever going to happen.

The problem is NOT of Zens' making, the problem is poor implementation by the upstream host.


I'm sorry, but the problem is entirely of Zen's making. RFC7208 doesn't say that an email that fails SPF must be rejected, it makes it clear that the decision to do so is a local policy.

And it goes on to state in D.3 that if the owner of the mailbox wishes to trust the mediator, ie the forwarder, then he should be able to do so.

So as Zen are refusing to provide a means to allow forwarders or individual mailboxes to be whitelisted, I would say that their implementation is equally poor.

I agree with the other posters about the appalling way this has done by Zen. No warning or notification - at the very least something should have been posted in the forums or in the knowledge base about their changes
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 12-Aug-17 11:16:08
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: rbn197] [link to this post]
 
Many ISPs no longer provide email mailbox services ; due to the amount of hassle us customers give them over things like this.

I suggest email is bought from an email provider, and internet access from an ISP. Keep the things separate, then you can change them independently.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Sat 12-Aug-17 12:21:39
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
That you continue to fail to understand that the problem is for you to fix rather than Zen suggests that you may have far more serious problems to deal with than just your e-mail.
Standard User kwillers
(learned) Sat 12-Aug-17 12:31:15
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: rbn197] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by rbn197:
In reply to a post by marjohn56:
So you would rather Zen not implement a global standard because it means your upstream mail forwarder has been lax in implementing a technology that has been on the horizon for a long time?

That would mean Zen would have to check every single mail forwarder that connects to their systems before they implement it, and that isn't ever going to happen.

The problem is NOT of Zens' making, the problem is poor implementation by the upstream host.



I'm sorry, but the problem is entirely of Zen's making. RFC7208 doesn't say that an email that fails SPF must be rejected, it makes it clear that the decision to do so is a local policy.

And it goes on to state in D.3 that if the owner of the mailbox wishes to trust the mediator, ie the forwarder, then he should be able to do so.

So as Zen are refusing to provide a means to allow forwarders or individual mailboxes to be whitelisted, I would say that their implementation is equally poor.

I agree with the other posters about the appalling way this has done by Zen. No warning or notification - at the very least something should have been posted in the forums or in the knowledge base about their changes


Yawn !

Well done Zen at least now the lazy Mail forwarders will have to comply or go bust

Setting up an SPF policy and then not rejecting mail that does not comply is pointless they lazy forwarders will continue being lazy. Carrot and Stick
This time the stick was used
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sat 12-Aug-17 18:47:12
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: rbn197] [link to this post]
 
dont know what zen's setup is like in regards to whitelisting.

But generally I dont recommend doing remote forwarding, forwarding I do is only ever local or using gmail.
Gmail forwarded to myself from netflix does arrive but only after a delay.

My own personal servers and other servers I manage will greylist on a SPF failure, based on experience of managing servers I dont consider outright blocking on SPF failures a good idea as is too many hosts out there even now in 2017 that have misconfigured SPF.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User AndyS
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 15-Aug-17 18:09:15
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Assumptions in technology industry are dangerous.

Like the assumption that everyone else will adopt SRS? tongue

My mail server will only accept mail for forwarded addresses that will not cause an SPF failure when onward delivery is attempted. If someone wants their mail delivered then they can add me to their SPF record. Iím loathed to implement SRS because it only serves to encourage people to do more of this sort of thing. Not content with mangling the envelope sender people are now pushing things like DMARC which meddles with the From header of the message as well.

I canít really blame Zen for rejecting mail based on SPF records as they are simply following the senderís instructions. In my opinion the fault lies with with the originating domain making poor policy decisions.

Andy

| ZeN Unlimited Broadband | Billion 7800DXL | 8 IP subnet |
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Tue 15-Aug-17 19:55:44
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: AndyS] [link to this post]
 
I totally agree with you.
From what I have read about SRS it modifies the FROM Header, so that in a way would break DKIM if the message already has DKIM headers included.

So wouldn't SRS make things worse and at the same time open you up to get blacklisted for spamming?

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | BQM #4 Linksys WRT 3200 ACM
Standard User AndyS
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 15-Aug-17 21:13:29
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by PaulKirby:
From what I have read about SRS it modifies the FROM Header, so that in a way would break DKIM if the message already has DKIM headers included.

SPF/SRS work on the envelope (the bit that SMTP servers use with and the user does not see) whilst DKIM works on message headers (the bit that shows up in your email client). SRS does not break DKIM.

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:
So wouldn't SRS make things worse and at the same time open you up to get blacklisted for spamming?

Without SPF/SRS if you accidentally forward too much spam you run the risk of the onward host blacklisting your IP address. With SPF/SRS you risk them blacklisting your domain name too. Neither is desirable but SRS makes it worse to be a forwarding host.

Andy

| ZeN Unlimited Broadband | Billion 7800DXL | 8 IP subnet |
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Wed 16-Aug-17 00:39:38
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: AndyS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyS:
In reply to a post by PaulKirby:
From what I have read about SRS it modifies the FROM Header, so that in a way would break DKIM if the message already has DKIM headers included.

SPF/SRS work on the envelope (the bit that SMTP servers use with and the user does not see) whilst DKIM works on message headers (the bit that shows up in your email client). SRS does not break DKIM.

Well I know SPS is only using a SPF / TXT DNS Record and that's it and the server check that to see if that mail server is allowed to send emails on behalf for that domain.
Just that the SRS info wasn't that clear, but yeah, so it uses the bit after the EHLO .... part, ok, I was wondering that.

In reply to a post by AndyS:
In reply to a post by PaulKirby:
So wouldn't SRS make things worse and at the same time open you up to get blacklisted for spamming?

Without SPF/SRS if you accidentally forward too much spam you run the risk of the onward host blacklisting your IP address. With SPF/SRS you risk them blacklisting your domain name too. Neither is desirable but SRS makes it worse to be a forwarding host.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Well atm our forwarding is working ok with just SPF and people are getting their emails, so I guess I will hold off on the SRS patch / plugin until its really needed.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | BQM #4 Linksys WRT 3200 ACM
Standard User savamac
(member) Wed 16-Aug-17 12:54:36
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
Does this explain my lack of emails from BA.com, Nextdoor.co.uk, Homebase.co.uk and others (which I can't list as I can't tell if they've sent me emails or not) ??

What's going on ?


So (as the young folk say), despite numerous facile / insulting / hostile posts in this thread, I can now report that Namesco (after a bit of prevarication) eventually responded with :

"Hi there

Thank you for contacting us

I have spoken to one of our engineers regarding this issue, they have notified me that this issue is caused by our servers not having SRS records in place which causes this issue.

Unfortunately they are aware of the issue but as of yet no correction can be implemented to add these to our system at this time.

This ticket will be marked as closed, this does not mean the issue is resolved. Simply reply to this ticket using your control panel in order to re-open the ticket. There is no need to open a new one."

So there you are.

I am now investigating having Zen host my domain - wish me luck.

PS I almost couldn't be bothered posting any more to this thread.... I worked in IT for 35 years (with a lot of experience of change management), and am not impressed by the quality of systems and "enhancements" foisted on the general public - there seems to be limited (if any) testing of changes, with regression planning being an afterthought.

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Wed 16-Aug-17 13:27:47
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
despite numerous facile / insulting / hostile posts in this thread
don't you just love it?!
Standard User marjohn56
(newbie) Wed 16-Aug-17 22:15:36
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
So having worked in IT for thirty five years you should have been aware of Sender Policy Framework and the rather long time it has taken to implement it.

http://windowsitpro.com/exchange-server/sender-polic...

That particular document dates to 2004.... you've only had thirteen years to get ready for it.

HG612 -> pfSense 2.4B

--------------------------------------------------------
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
--------------------------------------------------------
Standard User savamac
(member) Wed 16-Aug-17 22:24:38
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: marjohn56] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by marjohn56:
So having worked in IT for thirty five years you should have been aware of Sender Policy Framework and the rather long time it has taken to implement it.

http://windowsitpro.com/exchange-server/sender-polic...

That particular document dates to 2004.... you've only had thirteen years to get ready for it.


Never heard of it.

Worcester Park Exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LSWOR

It's only rock 'n' roll...

Old programmers never die, they just abend 0C4 ..
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Wed 16-Aug-17 22:25:59
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: marjohn56] [link to this post]
 
I can't see a reason to implement it as it doesn't solve the spam problem.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 16-Aug-17 22:52:12
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
I can't see a reason to implement it as it doesn't solve the spam problem.

Its one of many small steps on the path. Each one has a small amount of impact.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 16-Aug-17 22:53:24
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: savamac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by savamac:
PS I almost couldn't be bothered posting any more to this thread.... I worked in IT for 35 years (with a lot of experience of change management), and am not impressed by the quality of systems and "enhancements" foisted on the general public - there seems to be limited (if any) testing of changes, with regression planning being an afterthought.


35 years is an impressive time. Whilst change managers see a lot of stuff, this is a a technical attribute of email systems that SHOULD be sorted by your service provider, and as you found yours wasn't. Voting with your wallet is the best approach.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 - 2 Jun 14 - Sync at 28/Jul/17: 64,899/9,065 - G.INP & 3.3 dB SNRm
18 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial - Asus RT-AC68U and HG612 - BQM
Standard User ukwiz
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 22-Aug-17 14:38:37
Print Post

Re: Zen Internet SPF & Forwarding


[re: marjohn56] [link to this post]
 
I thought the sensible thing would be to contact Zen and get a list of things (in simple terms) to ask a forwarding provider.

No! After a chat session for nearly an hour I was told to query their Sender_Rewriting_Scheme. Not very much help if you are technically challenged.

David

BT (poor) -> Zen (excellent) -> O2 (started well, went downhill -> IDNet (No complaints - but 100GB cap) -> Zen (unlimited-and now ipv6!l)
Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to