Just switched to adsl2+ - high noise margin

Just got switched over to adsl2+ on plusnet pro. These are my stats;

Line Mode ADSL2+ Line State Show Time
Line Power State L0 Line Up Time 00:04:01:28
Line Coding Trellis On Line Up Count 3

Statistics Downstream Upstream
Line Rate 12771 Kbps 440 Kbps
Noise Margin 15.0 dB 29.7 dB
Line Attenuation 21.0 dB 5.7 dB
Output Power 0.0 dBm 12.4 dBm

I did have a faulty line (lots of disconnects, which i resolved) so it was normal to have 15dB SNR. My question is, will these stats improve? Or because I had a history of a faulty line will it keep the high SNR and am I going to have to ask to have it lowered? Also, the upstream sync rate and SNR can't be right, can it? Or do I just wait and hope it sorts itself out?

With regards to upstream speed the default is 448kbps but you can request it to increase here http://portal.plus.net/wizard/?wizard_id=20

£7.83 to add 400kbps to the upload? Rip off much? Other providers offer +1mb upload on adsl2+ no? And for free no less...

That is Max Premium, for standard ADSL users.

OP is on ADSL2+, which has a standard level of upto 1.3mbps/2.5mbps if Annex M

What make of router is it and is the firmware up to date?

Some of the stats seem a bit "odd", have you got another router you can use to get fresh stats?

In reply to a post by krazykizza:

That is Max Premium, for standard ADSL users.

OP is on ADSL2+, which has a standard level of upto 1.3mbps/2.5mbps if Annex M

So i can request to increase my upstream with no additional charge?

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

What make of router is it and is the firmware up to date?

Some of the stats seem a bit "odd", have you got another router you can use to get fresh stats?

I'm getting the same stats through the DMT tool. Its a Voyager 2110 with updated firmware. I have a Thomson Speedtouch I could try. Whats with the 30dB upstream SNR? That seems nuts to me.

2 things;
My exchange has only just been enabled for 21CN, not sure if they are teasing out a few bugs their end?
Also I don't really want to drop the connection if its going through a 10 day training period.

Maybe my link was wrong then - I didn't follow it as I didn't want mine changed from 448kbps.

I thought you could request for free.

The 10-day training is largely a myth, see this page. It's already screwed in your case anyway, as you will see from that link.

I would try the Speedtouch, but preferably in daylight. See the Noise Margin page for the reason for that.

Re the 440kbps, there is no you way shouldn't be getting the 448kbps anyway. The 832kbps option is a red herring.

My exchange has only just been enabled for 21CN, not sure if they are teasing out a few bugs their end?
Also I don't really want to drop the connection if its going through a 10 day training period.

I've no experience with 21CN exchange connection's "training periods" but maybe it's best to leave it in peace for that period

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The 10-day training is largely a myth, see this page. It's already screwed in your case anyway, as you will see from that link.

I would try the Speedtouch, but preferably in daylight. See the Noise Margin page for the reason for that.

Re the 440kbps, there is no you way shouldn't be getting the 448kbps anyway. The 832kbps option is a red herring.

I'll try the speedtouch tomorrow. Re: the upstream, i was getting 448kbps with DSL max, this has dropped with adsl2+.. this doesnt make any sense.. I'll try plusnet tomorrow (although they are slow replying when raising a ticket) on all of this.
Thanks for the help so far, much appreciated

Edited by Wangmaster (Wed 26-Jan-11 19:45:15)

No you can't - that's Max Premium which is 20CN only.

You just have to raise a ticket asking for the upstream to be uncapped.

You have quite a high upstream noise margin, so I suspect this is what is causing for your upstream sync rate in particular to suffer. Raise a ticket to see why your upstream SNR is so high, they might be able to advise you if you've had frequent disconnections and help you solve them.

your stats from previous your previous ADSL connection would be useful if you have them in a text document somewhere.

My stats 1 week before ADSL2+

It should be noted I did have major line problems and frequent disconnects a while back (after a thunderstorm), I think plusnet raised the target SNR which helped, but i would still lose sync whenever the phone rang. Turned out I had an old PBX mini-exchange connected (long story), now this is out of the picture I held sync for 6 days before being moved onto ADSL2+.

I think BT have me on an IP profile of 5.5meg, it was around 7 (i used to sync at nearly max speed). Surely with these stats I should be syncing higher?

I've raised a ticket with Plusnet and copied my stats. Basically I want my line re-set as if its a new connection and let it set at whatever speed my line supports (the exchange is just down the road from me) so hopefully something a bit better!

Oh and i ran the DMT tool to check the SNR for around an hour, it reported a 0.8dB average fluctuation, at 6pm - 7pm, with incoming and outgoing calls on the same line.

Rubbish!

If the sync speed is capped below the speed the line conditions would allow it to sync at you ALWAYS get a higher noise margin.

In reply to a post by jelv:

If the sync speed is capped below the speed the line conditions would allow it to sync at you ALWAYS get a higher noise margin.

So that accounts for the upstream margin? If I can get the downstream margin reduced I should sync faster no?

/edit

Also checking through plusnet they are saying now:
Estimated line speed:
6Mb (This may vary between 10Mb and 19.5Mb) - Checked on 2011-01-25 17:22:16
Current line speed:
21 Mb

Up from 5.5Mb earlier today. Plusnet say "current line speed" is based on my sync speed. But my router says 12771 Kbps. This is silly, its reporting 15 hours uptime or 5 hours depending on where i look on the config page.. think the router is playing up! ill try the new one in the morning and report back.

Edited by Wangmaster (Thu 27-Jan-11 00:39:33)

Yes.

Because of your previous problems your target noise margin will have been set to 15 (the highest setting). If your line stays absolutely stable with few errors and no disconnections Plusnet will be amenable to a request to restart the line training which starts with a target of 6db - that should give you a much higher sync.

Nice, thanks for that. Think i'll leave it sync'd for a couple days and ask for that, cheers jelv

I thought you needed to raise a ticket but mistakenly thought that was a shortcut

In reply to a post by Wangmaster:

Also checking through plusnet they are saying now:
Estimated line speed:
6Mb (This may vary between 10Mb and 19.5Mb) - Checked on 2011-01-25 17:22:16
Current line speed:
21 Mb

Up from 5.5Mb earlier today. Plusnet say "current line speed" is based on my sync speed. But my router says 12771 Kbps. This is silly, its reporting 15 hours uptime or 5 hours depending on where i look on the config page.. think the router is playing up! ill try the new one in the morning and report back.

That's all cock-eyed. Current Line Speed in Plusnet-speak is their copy of your IP Profile.

What does a BT Performance Test say about connection speed and IP Profile?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What does a BT Performance Test say about connection speed and IP Profile?

Download speedachieved during the test was - 5404 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 2000-7150 Kbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 6000 Kbps

it also says 7150 Kbps = Max Achievable Speed. Not sure BT are aware im on adsl2+!

Ticket time! Things are going downhill fast compared even with your opening post.

Done. I've asked to have the line training reset and hopefully something can be done about my IP profile too.

We'll be in touch when your answer is ready.

At the moment we're averaging a response time of 26 hours 59 minutes 38 seconds for new queries.

lol

In reply to a post by Wangmaster:

At the moment we're averaging a response time of 26 hours 59 minutes 38 seconds for new queries.

Things are definitely going downhill . This one was considerably better .

FWIW my raised ticket for market 3 re-classification is sitting at 67 hours without a response. Not sure if they even intend to respond to such tickets, or if the responses are in a seperate queue.

There is no proof that he is being capped, his sync rate certainly doesn't looked capped to me, and looks like its being influenced by normal line atributes.

I'd say most of my tickets are answered within 24 hours, which isnt too bad. It just seems to be hit or miss whether you get someone who cares/knows what you're talking about or not.

Upload is capped, my sync is low due to the high noise margin on the downsteam. I dont even mind waiting a few weeks for the IP profile to change through normal BT conditions, just want the noise margin reduced!

Wish there was a way to make a *request* instead of ask a question.

Post deleted by billford

In reply to a post by krazykizza:

High SNR does not mean your upload speed is capped!

If I get lucky and get someone halfway knowledgeable on the end of my ticket I guess i can resolve that myself!

It seems fairly obvious that in switching to 21cn/adsl2+ my line hasn't gone through any sort of "training" at all. The BT checker says my line should be capable of 17mbps, but by keeping all my old margins and not even trying to find a max stable rate anywhere near this. I suppose they just switch you over and only do something if you get lots of errors or disconnects..

He'll also be pleased to know that by default Plusnet cap upstream on all new provision to a maximum of 448 and that if you want faster upload you have to request your upload to be uncapped.

There's only one person around here who doesn't know what he is talking about and it ain't me!

Can i get your PN username please?

Ben Trimble (of Plusnet) has contributed to this topic because I've just been discussing this topic with him via IRC. He told me

all orders to 21CN are with 448k upstream (occasionally gets a 443 sync) unless specifically requested for uncapped

Wangmaster:Can you PM Ben with your Plusnet username and/or post the number of a recent ticket on your account on here and I'll make sure someone from Plusnet has a look at your issues.

Cheers for the PM. Your profile is...

WBC 160K - 24M Medium delay (INP 1) 15dB Downstream, 448 Medium delay (INP 2) 6dB Upstream (ADSL2+)

Which means target SNR margin on the downstream of 15dB and 448k capped upstream. I've submitted an SNR reset (re-starts training) and an order to uncap your upstream. Please leave everything powered up and plugged in with NO reboots and it'll train in at the best possible speed.

Enjoy

In reply to a post by bentrimble:

Cheers for the PM. Your profile is...

WBC 160K - 24M Medium delay (INP 1) 15dB Downstream, 448 Medium delay (INP 2) 6dB Upstream (ADSL2+)

Which means target SNR margin on the downstream of 15dB and 448k capped upstream. I've submitted an SNR reset (re-starts training) and an order to uncap your upstream. Please leave everything powered up and plugged in with NO reboots and it'll train in at the best possible speed.

Enjoy

Legend! I take back everything i said about plusnet Thanks Ben!

NP

Evading the filter AND using it to insult another poster... not very clever.

yep, stick to that.

TTOV.

What does TTOV stand for.

In reply to a post by jelv:

What does TTOV stand for.

Timer Toggle on Overflow or Ten Thousand Oregon Vacation.

http://www.acronymattic.com/TTOV.html

Some people think it looks clever to pepper their posts with abstruse (and often "private") acronyms, but I think he's lost the plot on this one.

Edited by billford (Sat 29-Jan-11 00:16:23)

You bit.

Post deleted - replied to wrong post

Edited by jelv (Sun 30-Jan-11 09:52:29)

As you've re-appeared in this topic, any chance of an apology and an admission that I was right when I said that his upload was being capped?

not a chance in that.

my point remains valid. SNR being 30db upstream, far higher than what is normal for a WBC connection indicates to me a faulty line, and not a sync rate cap.

your barking up the wrong tree if you think you getting anything else from me. Ta very much.

Edited by deleted (Sun 30-Jan-11 17:10:31)

You are wrong.

Two separate people who work for Plusnet have confirmed to me that Plusnet by default order 21CN connections with the upstream capped at 448.

The high noise margin indicates how much faster the upstream could go if it were not capped.

Jelv is correct (and I have it from more that 2 PlusNet employees, including the people designing the testing the products before they went live via PUG).

There are numerous posts on the PN forums confirming this from PN employees, including the 21CN/ADSL2+ original announcement here. There are also numerous threads of people asking for the upstream to be uncapped from 448Kbs and PN employees placing orders to do just that.

A high noise margin is perfectly normal on a capped upstream speed of 448Kbs and like the downstream SNR, it will decrease as the upstream speed increases once the upstream is uncapped.

Edited by deleted (Sun 30-Jan-11 20:25:49)

What reasons are given by Plusnet?

Did you read the announcement?

I thought I had but seemed to have missed that para. It does seem to be a reasonable course of action.

Just thought i'd post back to say things have improved somewhat:

Uncapped upstream now (yes, it was capped ). SNR was changed only to 12, was very stable and saw an improvement in sync speed. Forced a SNR of 9 through DMT tool and am seeing a stable connection at:

Statistics Downstream Upstream
Line Rate 14785 Kbps 1063 Kbps
Noise Margin 9.3 dB 9.7 dB
Line Attenuation 21.0 dB 5.7 dB
Output Power 0.0 dBm 11.8 dBm

I'll make sure thats stable for a couple days and see if i can get it down to 6dB. BT seem to have me on a 10mb profile however. Thanks for everyones help tho!

The OP has now posted to confirm that the upstream was capped, now it's uncapped and he's getting a faster sync.

Now will you admit you were wrong and apologise?