Plusnet engineer visit

Hi guys, i've had plusnet broadband since moving in to my flat in september ad have been experiencing slow speeds since day one. Obviously i was advised for the first few weeks that the line was 'settling' but things didn't improve.
Initial speed estimates were 5.5meg. I was getting a sync speed of 3meg and an actual connection speed of 0.15meg download 0.01meg upload.
I've phoned them countless times, emailed them to provide them with additional information such as capturing packet data with Wireshark. I think i've gone above and beyond what could be reasonably expected of me and can't help but feel that most people would have given up by this stage which is what they were intending for me to do.
Now i'm waiting for them to sort out a problem with their fault logging system so that they can organise an engineer to visit. They have told me that 'should the problem be found to be in the internal wiring that i would be liable to pay £60.
So are they just going to send round an engineer who will then blame the internal wiring charging £60, then we'll have to get someone to fix the internal wiring, then prove that the fault remains, try and open a new fault ticket and get the £60 back?

What do you think?
I think paying for line rental and broadband for a narrowband speed line has been too expensive already and that i'm being put in a situation where i feel i'm having to make a gamble on an ISP who have already repeatedly proved themselves dubious.

Could i cancel my broadband now claiming it not to be fit for purpose? Or are they going to refuse as i've not exhausted all of their options by accepting an engineers visit?

Thanks!

Does your main incomi9ng phone socket have a test socket? If so, then plug the router in there. If you can leave it in there and see if things improve. This isolates it from your own internal wiring and ensures that if BT come out it cannot be an issue with that as it isn't connected.

Provided you have tested the board band at the NTE5 test socket with a new filter and you router and all other wiring has been disconnected their is no reason why you would get any charge..

The estimate might have been wrong, and that wouldn't be PN's fault. The BT databases that give this are often wildly out.

Please can you see if you can find and post your line/router stats. See here for help. Once we have those, we know for definite what your line should be capable of.

A second set of stats, using the test socket as already suggested, would be great for comparison and the comparison could give a clue to the cause of the problem. The test socket is on the wall at the back in this pic.

Pasting the results of a BT Performance Test down as far as the end of the upload figures would also be a help.

General Information
NTE Status: NTE Power Status: PowerOn Bypass Status:

Upstream DSL Link Information Downstream DSL Link Information
Loop Loss: 23.1 52.5
SNR Margin: 25 6
Errored Seconds: 0 1
HEC Errors: 0
Cell Count: 898403 6314844
Speed: 440 3347

Maximum Stable Rate (KBPS): 576 Fault Threshold Rate (KBPS): 576
Mean Time Between Retrains (Seconds): 43121 Mean Time Between Errors Upstream (Seconds): 86400
Indicative Line Quality: G Mean Time Between Errors Downstream (Seconds): 445




Detailed Records
Attribute: UpStream-BE
DownStream-BE UpStream-BE DownStream-BE
TAP ID: TAP-1
TAP-1 TAP-3 TAP-3
Test ID: 1323902458 1323902406 1323902891 1323902845
Start Date/Time: 14-12-2011 22:40:10 14-12-2011 22:39:25 14-12-2011 22:47:27 14-12-2011 22:46:36
Policy ID: WBC WBC WBC WBC
Profile Rate: 440 2952 440 2952
Test File Size: 93440 904912 84680 877416
File Transfer Average Throughput/Session: 19.290225982666015625 211.4248809814453125 20.3651676177978515625 217.0755767822265625

Well the connection speeds are down/up 3347/440kbps, which is in line with the estimate, and the IP Profile of 2952kbps is correct for the downstream 3347kbps. Which socket did you use to take those stats?

Are you testing speeds wired or wireless?

The 3347kbps downstream is however quite low for the 52.5dB attenuation. I would expect 4-5Mbps, tending towards the high end in most cases. As your downstream noise margin is currently 6dB it would be useful to know the stats taken immediately after a reconnection, as the noise margin changes over time and the reading at connection time is critical to the connection speed you get. See the above requests re the test socket.

I haven't really analysed the stuff below the Link information, other than picking up the IP Profile. Where does all that stuff come from, as I haven't seen that format before?

In particular though the MSR and FTR, if they are the BT Wholesale figures, point to a severe problem during your initial 10-day training. Was that the case?

It would be useful if you posted the ticket number because I'm sure one of the helpful Plusnet reps here would then pick it up and try to assist.

Edited by kasg (Thu 05-Jan-12 12:27:10)

That info i posted comes from what plusnet see when i use the BT speed tester.
Tests were performed using a linksys router connected via ethernet and plugged into the test socket behind the face plate. The tests were performed on the only device connected to the network and have been repeated using another router borrowed from a friend. Computers used to perform the test have varied along with their operating systems. Between all the tests 5 PCs / laptops have been used running XP, VISTA, 7, Mac OS, Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora.

Plusnet claim my line speed profile was set to low so they raised it.
They claimed it was set low due to errors on the line, so they turned on interleveing, waited for the line to stabilise for a few days and reset the speed profile.
The sync speed has remained unchanged and still vastly exceeds the actual received speed by about 20 times.

I know i'm quite far from the exchange, which is a pain as i live right in the middle of a city. The buildings down the road have fibre, but virgin say they won't be installing it here. The info from sam knows says this:
up to 2Mbps via ADSL
4Mbps or greater ADSL connection via ADSL Max
5.5Mbps or greater via ADSL2+

With regards to the SNR i think that was immediately after reconnection. The third test of the BT speed tester requires that you change your DSL login details to some generic ones so that they can access more information, this of course means that the router will have just been reconnected.

Lots of bases been covered then - I'd still like to see a bang up-to-date BT speed test though. Just because I haven't seen one in a way.

What does the PN Line Rate say?

Is the router connected to the socket using a short ADSL cable, or is there an extension cable to reach it? So:-

1) Router >> ADSL cable >> filter >> socket, or
2) Router >> ADSL cable >> filter >> extension cable >> socket.

In reply to a post by memsb:

this of course means that the router will have just been reconnected.

No, it wont. I beleive RobertoS is referring to a complete re-sync.

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

In reply to a post by memsb:

this of course means that the router will have just been reconnected.

No, it wont. I beleive RobertoS is referring to a complete re-sync.

I must be being sleepy. I didn't pick up on that.

PC >> Ethernet >> Router >> Cable >> Filter >> Test socket.
We only have the phone line for the internet and don't have a phone plugged in.

How can i make the router do a complete resync?

Estimated line speed:
4.0Mb (This may vary between 3Mb and 7Mb) - Checked on 2011-10-10 18:01:05
Current line speed:
2.4 Mb

--- System Information ---
Vendor: Linksys
ModelName: WAG54G2
Firmware Version: 1.00.10 , 2008-08-01T20:20:49
Boot Version: 1.03
Hardware Version: 0.01

--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version: E.25.41.39
DSL VPI/VCI: 0/38
DSL Status: Showtime
DSL Mode: ADSL2
DSL Channel: 64
DSL Upstream Rate: 440000
DSL Downstream Rate: 3307700

Down up
DSL Noise Margin: 23.0 dB 48.5 dB
DSL Attenuation: 24.5 dB 6.10 dB
DSL Transmit Power: 17.6 dBm 12.1 dBm

Edited by deleted (Thu 05-Jan-12 14:03:20)

Turn it's power off is simplest .

Those latest stats are garbage and suggest a faulty router. Or somehow in getting to here the figures for attenuation and noise margin have been swapped over. What are they like after you turn it off and leave it off for 5 minutes before turning it back on please?

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 05-Jan-12 14:16:54)

Very similar:

--- System Information ---
Vendor: Linksys
ModelName: WAG54G2
Firmware Version: 1.00.10 , 2008-08-01T20:20:49
Boot Version: 1.03
Hardware Version: 0.01

--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version: E.25.41.39
DSL VPI/VCI: 0/38
DSL Status: Showtime
DSL Mode: ADSL2
DSL Channel: 64
DSL Upstream Rate: 440000
DSL Downstream Rate: 3544000

Down up
DSL Noise Margin: 23.0 dB 50.0 dB
DSL Attenuation: 24.5 dB 6.45 dB
DSL Transmit Power: 17.8 dBm 12.1 dBm

So i have low attenuation, and a very high noise margin? The high noise margin might be due to the low sync speed for the attenuation on the line? So it has more margin in hand and could potentially connect at a higher speed?

Hi memsb,

If you can PM me your username I'll take a look for you.

Jojo

Nope.

If you look at the stats from a different router that you posted at 12:03, and appear to be from 14 December, the Loop Loss, which is another name for Attenuation, and the noise margins, both look sensible, and correspond closely to ones from the Linksys if the attenuation and noise margin data from the linksys are swapped to each others description. Oh - just realised, on the Linksys the Up/Down headings are also obviously reversed, though correct for the power figures.

In particular, we expect the upstream attenuation to be about half the downstream, and re the noise margin the 6.45dB downstream figure straight after a reconnection is a highly likely reading and the ones reported are impossible - the system cannot assign such margins. The downstream rate is also consistent with that 6.45dB margin on a longish line (50db-ish attenuation), but is still low.

How recent is the LInksys firmware/driver? I had a WAG54GS a few years ago and don't remember this problem. Ah - Aug 2008. Is there an update available?

Another noticeable effect is that it is reporting ADSL2, whereas your Plusnet setting is almost certainly ADSL2+. Or have you forced it?

The 52.5dB loop loss falling to 50dB is consistent with that change, but the earlier 48.5dB looks strange. In particular the attenuation on any particular router should not change by more than 0.5dB, ever. Though different makes can calculate it differently, (it is an average of the individual attenuations at each frequency and it seems different manufacturers use different criterea for including particular ones), which is something I haven't considered above.

I don't think I would be using the Linksys if I had others available. Is there a particular reason for it?

The 12:03 data i posted was from what plusnets support system shows in the faults log from when i ran the BT speed tester, it's not come from a router info page. The test was performed using the same linksys router. The linksys is being used as it's my only outer, i have in the past borrowed routers from friends for testing purposes however both of those routers were wired only and i would like to use wifi.
I thought a firmware update was needless as i thought i had ruled out the router as being the problem by using different ones. I shall try doing a firmware update.

I didn't realise you were talking about the columns on that output data being switched, i thought it was the rows that were being suggested were the wrong way round. I guess I just ignored the headings and assumed it would be in Download / Upload order.

DSL mode is set to MultiMode and appears to have picked ADSL2 by itself. I could force it to:
ADSL2
ADSL2+
ADSL2 L
ADSL2 M
ADSL2+ M

Edited by deleted (Thu 05-Jan-12 16:12:51)

The rows are wrong way round, as well as the headings . The 12:03 ones are the right way round.

Have you checked that link I gave you for the Plusnet line rate? That can get out of step. The BT speed test value should be similar but may not be. At the moment you aren't giving me either, at their current values . 14 December is useful but not hugely so now.

PN line rate:

In reply to a post by memsb:

Estimated line speed:
4.0Mb (This may vary between 3Mb and 7Mb) - Checked on 2011-10-10 18:01:05
Current line speed:
2.4 Mb

Test1 comprises of two tests

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
128 Kbps

0 Kbps 4000 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 128 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :3544 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 440 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 3126 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
0 Kbps

0 Kbps 440 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 440 Kbps


This test was not conclusive and further testing is required.This might be useful for your ISP to investigate the fault.

Yuk!

And the Plusnet line rate from https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=data_transfer... ?

Amazing you can even use these forums . That's a joke speed!

Thats what i've been paying line rental and broadband rates for since september. It's shocking to think that in a city half a mile away from a seat of national government that's the fastest speed i can get!

Do you think i would be justified in claiming the connection was not fit for purpose (it's a long way off even the most pessimistic speed estimates) or will they insist on sending an engineer out first?
I know they will claim it as a fault with the line itself, but O2 tried that one on my a couple of years ago. They even made me wait 3 months for the exchange to be upgraded but my speeds were still useless. In the end i switched to BT and got 8meg speeds that same day! I wish i never had to move house now!

Plusnet line rate from the link?

Please find screen shot attached.

http://i41.tinypic.com/25aoisl.png

Hmm. 2.4Mbps. That's a wierd figure anyway, as I'd expect a multiple of 500, but it isn't that causing the problem. I'm assuming that is as of now, not one from some time ago?

Did you send a PM to Joanne as she requested?

The date stamp shows it's an old value, but despite all the changes made the sync speed and download speeds have remained unchanged since day one.

I sent the PM but if she is looking into it she'll be having to trawl through 3 months worth of back and forth conversation between myself and plusnet.

Plusnet seem keen to blame BT, and also my equipment, but both seem to be fine. I suspect that if i leave for another ISP things might improve. I can't know this for a fact but it's getting to the point where i have nothing else to try.

I had a similar situation a few years back in another town. I went with O2 as my friend who lived opposite recommended them saying he got 8meg day and night. I went with them and got 0.3 meg day and night. They blamed everything they possibly could even insisting i waited 3 months for an exchange upgrade. This changed nothing. I moved to BT and had 8meg speeds the same day!

The Plusnet line rate I'm asking for changes every time your BT IP Profile changes, but sometimes fails to be updated. This is a well-known problem.

If you have had a low sync for any reason since the one you posted then the Plusnet one will have been set low.

If it then fails to update to what it should be now then it will slow you down to whatever it is at.

What's so difficult about signing into your Plusnet account and following the link? You don't need to upload screen shots, just tell us what it says the line rate is. It can be as low as 135kbps, which would immediately explain the 128kbps speed test result.

I'm sorry but i've repeatedly clicked the links you're posted and repeatedly posted the information displayed:
Estimated line speed:
4.0Mb (This may vary between 3Mb and 7Mb) - Checked on 2011-10-10 18:01:05
Current line speed:
2.4 Mb

If this is not the information you want to see perhaps you can provide an alternate link, or suggest where it is?

You said the time stamp gave the date. Until you said that, I assumed it was the date of the estimate, not of the line rate. Once you said "The date stamp shows it's an old value" I thought you meant that was when you read it so was the date of the line rate as well.

You also said there "but despite all the changes made the sync speed and download speeds have remained unchanged since day one". But we have three different sync speeds in the stats in this thread.

It gets a bit difficult to know what is "now" and what isn't.

For information the Plusnet IP profile copy is stated as Current Line Speed
The Estimated Line Speed is a total guess which may or may not have any similarity to actuality
This is what mine says
Estimated line speed:
1.5Mb (This may vary between 1Mb and 3.5Mb) - Checked on 2011-12-21 21:35:32
Current line speed:
4.2 Mb

Edited by deleted (Thu 05-Jan-12 21:06:57)

But I believe it is the IP Profile copy. Unless I was given the wrong links here?

It is indeed
Current Line Speed = IP profile (in theory)
Previous post edited for clarity

Edited by deleted (Thu 05-Jan-12 21:07:27)

Interestingly, it used to be one of the BT IP Profile step numbers. See this thread which predates the one I took the links from, but both the OP's here and yours are showing a rounded 1 decimal place Mbps value. Which would seem to be the way Plusnet are now coping with the stepless WBC BT DLM.

I've never before seen the bit with the dated estimate . Only people giving the line speed. That's why the OP threw me by saying the date stamp there was relevant.

The system is that the Plusnet mirror of the IP profile with the new 21CN system is to give the nearest round 100 under the BT number.
So for example a BT IP profile of 4267kbps would show up as 4200kbps

At least they have it working . It wasn't, not long before Christmas so far as I know.

Anyway, thanks - we've established that isn't the problem with the IOP's connection either, so with luck he will by now have done as JoJo requested and given her his username. Or she may have enough clues here to find it.

Certainly a very odd situation. Never seen it before on any ISP.

Hi I have just been through all this with orange, it has taken me phoning sometimes 2/3 times a day, and getting all the proof that I could, and the person who told you to unscrew you BT box and plug strat into it is correct, and Plusnet, should have provided you with a new router, fillet and cable to make sure the one you received was not faulty.

The engineer that came out to me was a BT engineer and they are called out to deal with anyones Broadband be it orange, bt, etc as you are still using BT lines, he was great tested everything, and told me what I had done was either right or wrong, he was very helpful, did not push BT, was just full of good information.

A good bit of information he gave me to look for the DownStream Connection Speed in my router, I can get into my router and see all the info, not sure if you can with Plusnet. He has told me to keep an eye on this as it will tell you what is really going on more than running major speed tests.

I would like to now how you get on as Plusnet is one of my options to move to, but I do not wont to go from the frying pan into the fire, if this is the case, I think I will go back to BT as I never had any problems with them accept the cost.

In reply to a post by Felizdia:

A good bit of information he gave me to look for the DownStream Connection Speed in my router, I can get into my router and see all the info

That's the 1st thing we ask for here for any speed issue and is recommended in the "read this first" sticky here

Hi memsb,

I've been running some checks and it's a very strange one. I can see the 128k on the speed test. Which router was this? Do you have another router you can try, if so, can you publish a BT speed test with that? I've also got one of our faults ream progressing this for you today.

Jojo

Joanne, I'm wondering if it is the line card on the MSAN? Note the MSR and FTR both at 576kps in an earlier post. Or have those been reset already by a full retrain?

Has a Lift & Shift been considered at any point, or is that thought unlikely to be the issue?

Another thought, relating to the router about which I have already expressed doubt.

I don't know how far back in his IP Profile history you can see, but if when he tried other routers he was on the old profile system, then that could account for them making no difference if the profile was low at the time.

The router worked just fine at my 2 previous addresses. I've also taken the router to a friends house and connected it to his broadband where it functioned at the same speed as his normal router (8meg). Similarly his router when used on my line gave the exact same speeds as when i use my router.
I know if my router were faulty and his not then it would take a few days for the speed profile to update, but i would still expect to receive a speed of near to the speed profile (2.5-3meg) but i still get the same 128k speed.
The fault remains stuck in some systems glitch or something which prevents them from booking an engineer.

That does point more towards the line card possibility then . As does the fact that you are saying the download has always been 128kbps. I had misread that in the opening post and thought you were getting varying low speeds. Sorry about that.

Yes, "Total Guess" is about right! Here's what it says for me.

Estimated line speed:
2.0Mb (This may vary between 1.5Mb and 4.5Mb) - Checked on 2011-05-20 17:04:56
Current line speed:
6.4 Mb

I've always had around 6Mb. Sometimes, mostly in the summer months, it can nudge the 7.0Mb mark.

Andrew

A rebuild of the line profile, or lift and shift may be a way to go.

As the diagnostics state a home visit first to rule out your wiring, then you will need to let that happen. Nothing indicates a big problem with the internal wiring from what we can see

Hi memsb,

It looks like an engineer is booked for this afternoon, hope that gets it sorted for you - please let us know if not.