Market 2 and 3 pricing - looking for people affected

On behalf of a radio show likely to go out on Friday, so would be good to hear from people by Thursday morning.

They are looking for people who have only discovered about the price reductions/offers for Market 2 areas when contacting Plusnet about some other issue, or perhaps through a friend, or seeing others getting the discount on a forum (ours, Plusnet or anyone elses).

If you are affected, or you know somewho has been then email me [email protected] with Plusnet Markets in the subject line and a short synopsis. Then once I've got a collection I will summarise them and pass on email address to the journalist.

It is likely that they would email you, and then perhaps have a quick phone chat, before perhaps recording a few words.

I am a Market 1 victim.
I would be happy to talk to them how Ofcom's stupid market classification has cost me (and many thousends others) lot of money.
All for nothing: no LLU came and now it never will !

As for PlusNet, my only gripe is that I have to periodically renegotiate my deal
to keep up with BT's offers. That's bit daft as their are owned by BT...
Regards,
Martin

Can you email me then

Is your exchange still Market 1 (that's the way it appeared from what you've said)?

If so yours isn't an example Andrew was after.

I am on Bosham exchange, W. Sussex (Market 2). Have just spoken to PN, who were very helpful as usual. The Tech Service guy spoke to his boss. Official answer is "No comment at the moment". Matter is being dealt with by Matt on the Digital Team. Suggested that PN might like to make a psot on this forum

In reply to a post by Bah_Humbug:

Suggested that PN might like to make a psot on this forum

There's a long thread in August with PN participation.

Thanks for that. Very interesting.
PLUSNET CUSTOMERS BE AWARE OF THIS. I have just spoken with Plusnet and they have given me a £5.75 discount for twelve months. This brings me down to the same price as that which is offered to new customers, namely £5.74 for Broadband Extra and £3.50 for Anytime calls (£4.00 from the end of the month). It is sad that one has to ask for the discount and that it is not given to existing customers automatically, but got there in the end. Thank you Plusnet.

That means you were already on the *correct* Market 2 price of 11.49 for Extra prior to contacting us then?

In reply to a post by martinsq:

I would be happy to talk to them how Ofcom's stupid market classification has cost me (and many thousends others) lot of money.

If Ofcom de-regulated Market 1 exchanges you'd be paying more money, not less. BT Wholesale has no reason to keep their prices reasonable in areas where they have no competition.

Rather than blaming Ofcom, it's fairer to criticise O2, Talktalk and Sky for not considering your exchange economically viable. Competition is what drives prices down.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by martinsq:

I would be happy to talk to them how Ofcom's stupid market classification has cost me (and many thousends others) lot of money.

If Ofcom de-regulated Market 1 exchanges you'd be paying more money, not less. BT Wholesale has no reason to keep their prices reasonable in areas where they have no competition.

Rather than blaming Ofcom, it's fairer to criticise O2, Talktalk and Sky for not considering your exchange economically viable. Competition is what drives prices down.

Rubbish - TT unbundled our exchange a year ago and still Market 1.

In reply to a post by professor973:

Rubbish - TT unbundled our exchange a year ago and still Market 1.

Not rubbish, the vast majority of exchanges Talktalk have unbundled are at least Market 2.

I see your logic in your difference of opinion with Oliver, but for the benefit of many who may not be aware how Market Classification works, (we frequently get posters here thinking that their Plusnet price will go down whan the first LLU supplier enters their exchange), it's as follows:-

Although the Market Status was originally based on the number of ISPs present in an exchange, with BT Wholesale counting as one, (in other words CPs who have a DSLAM there), this criterion was merely the basis for the Classification Lists issued by OfCom.

This relationship has not been maintained. Any exchanges that LLU suppliers have moved into since the last OfCom list issued in December 2010 have not been reclassified.

As the charges by Openreach to ISPs are determined by the OfCom list, not by the number of LLU suppliers present, the ISPs have little choice than to price according to that list.

I believe in fact that Openreach charges are the same for Market 1 and Market 2. That only Market 3 is lower priced.

So far as I know Plusnet are the only ISP to charge less to Market 3 customers. A while ago, they extended this lower charging to Market 2 customers. I am not aware of any change to what they themselves pay, but perhaps there was.

The issue about which this thread originated is that Plusnet did not automatically advise M2 customers when this extension of M3 pricing to M2 areas was inaugurated. My view is that this failure is reprehensible.

The non-reclassification by OfCom is a complete illogicality.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 12-Oct-12 22:31:38)

In reply to a post by professor973:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by martinsq:

I would be happy to talk to them how Ofcom's stupid market classification has cost me (and many thousends others) lot of money.

If Ofcom de-regulated Market 1 exchanges you'd be paying more money, not less. BT Wholesale has no reason to keep their prices reasonable in areas where they have no competition.

Rather than blaming Ofcom, it's fairer to criticise O2, Talktalk and Sky for not considering your exchange economically viable. Competition is what drives prices down.

Rubbish - TT unbundled our exchange a year ago and still Market 1.

The principle is sound - when O2, TalkTalk, Sky (or others, but those are the main 3) roll out service at an exchange, then the exchange will meet the criteria for becoming market 2 (or market 3, if more than 1 does so).

However, it is the detail in practice where this falls down. Ofcom sets the definition. Unfortunately it only builds the list every few years. Inbetween those dates, the list stays static.

The last update was at the end of 2010 - and can be found on the Ofcom website. It includes a CSV list of all exchange classifications - and shows that nearly 350 stopped being considered market 1.

Although the list is static, it did take into account plans that the various companies had at the time.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I believe in fact that Openreach charges are the same for Market 1 and Market 2. That only Market 3 is lower priced.

Didn't Ofcom do a funny thing last year, where they demanded BT drop the wholesale price of market 1 connections (some N% below inflation, year-on-year) - but only where they were 20CN?

I think there were a few reasons behind it - one of which is presumably to get ISPs to reduce the price for market 1 customers, but another is to "help" BT decide it is worth rolling out ADSL2+.

Perhaps now it has helped them to decide to roll fibre instead!

You could be right. Something stirs in the deep recesses.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Didn't Ofcom do a funny thing last year, where they demanded BT drop the wholesale price of market 1 connections (some N% below inflation, year-on-year) - but only where they were 20CN?

Perhaps it's because ADSL original is universal at ADSL enabled exchanges, and as such should be price protected, whereas ADSL2+ can be offered by ISPs too, but at a premium to the consumer. It's probably for this reason that e.g. O2 offer up to 8 meg on non-LLU exchanges, as 24 meg would be more costly for them to provision without Ofcom's price controls.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The issue about which this thread originated is that Plusnet did not automatically advise M2 customers when this extension of M3 pricing to M2 areas was inaugurated. My view is that this failure is reprehensible.

It goes further than that. There are people who signed up some years ago when the exchange was Market 1 and the designation changed at the last OFCOM review but Plusnet have not advised them.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The issue about which this thread originated is that Plusnet did not automatically advise M2 customers when this extension of M3 pricing to M2 areas was inaugurated. My view is that this failure is reprehensible.

But you didn't consider that it was malfeasance, according to one of your original posts on this subject - http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/plusnet/t/4023223-r...

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Didn't Ofcom do a funny thing last year, where they demanded BT drop the wholesale price of market 1 connections (some N% below inflation, year-on-year) - but only where they were 20CN?

Yes, precisely.
No sign of any reduction being passed on, NO sign of 21CN coming here this Century !
No LLU, not now, not ever.
We had ADSL Max in March 2006, nothing has changed since.
Thats why I say we are Ofcom's Market 1 victims.

Regards,
Martin

So did it happen, Andrew? Anyone from here?

In reply to a post by martinsq:

Yes, precisely.
No sign of any reduction being passed on

Those are issues with the various retail ISPs. All of them - not just Plusnet.

(I do agree that it *looks* worse for Plusnet, because they have chosen to give separate prices for each market. However, even the ISPs that charge a single price are guilty of not passing the reduction on)

Ofcom might have made the playground more favourable to reductions, but if ISPs do not make use of the facility, it doesn't make you a victim of Ofcom. You're a victim of the ISPs.

Note: Ofcom also hoped that ISPs would install more bandwidth for the rural customers. It is possible that they are "spending the reductions" on this instead of passing them on. Who knows?

In reply to a post by martinsq:

, NO sign of 21CN coming here this Century !

That's an issue for BT Wholesale, and their plans for 21CN WBC. It is still being rolled out, and exchanges continue to be added.

In fact, it would seem likely that 21CN rollout plans will be needed for some of the BDUK plan - in particular for the 10% that won't get fibre.

But you are right, in that not *everywhere* will get 21CN, under the existing funding - BT's own, or the BDUK/ERDF subsidy funding.

Beyond 2015, the EU has a target of SFBB for everyone by 2020 - so some solution will be needed, but no-one is thinking about that right now. BDUK is focussing everyone's minds right now.

So again, none of this makes you a victim of Ofcom. The problems here stem from the viability of 21CN at far-rural exchanges *and* the ongoing BDUK bidding & planning.

No LLU, not now, not ever.

That might be true. There's nothing we can do to force competition to add LLU services. The best bets are either:
- that BDUK subsidies kick your area into action, or
- that someone in your community manages to bring together a community-broadband project (as envisaged by BDUK).

Thats why I say we are Ofcom's Market 1 victims.

You're really a victim of geography, and population density. I don't know whether you have chosen to live where you do, or it is forced on you for one reason or another.

In that situation, Ofcom has both helped & hindered you.

They have helped, in that they have placed limits on what BT can charge you for broadband (or, rather, what they charge the retail ISP). This has helped to bring you broadband much cheaper than you would be expected to pay under normal market conditions.

However, because you don't pay much, your area is then perceived as unprofitable - and gets no upgrades, and no competition. The same Ofcom rules are what hinder here.

And that is what the Ofcom rule changes are meant to do: some subtle changes to the regulations can be enough to turn exchanges from loss-making into profit-making. They can be enough to cause plans to be made by BT, or by the competition.

But subtle rule changes don't work *everywhere* at the same time. Ofcom will monitor & adjust.

Too much going on to monitor everything - so not sure if it went out or not

If OFCOM were so inclined they could change the situation in a simple move: set a maximum price for connections below a particular speed, with the promise that that price would be reduced further in future years.

I have been wondering, for a while, how long before we get pricing based on actual speeds - or a broader choice of packages that offset the headline speed vs price (so you can choose a package appropriate to your line's capability.

Perhaps it would indeed come from regulation via Ofcom.

Given the political pressure to do well in league tables, anything that might mean people buy the slower options is not likely to happen.

Or to say it another way, people will probably look to save the £1 to £2 a month and accept that downloads are slower

Don't believe that for one second.

How many people would opt for a speed that meant iPlayer was unwatchable without constant buffering?

Sub 4Mb speeds should be penalised!

Plusnet,, like any other ISP, is under no obligation to change its pricing structure for all users in a certain category. In fact, it may be uneconomic to do so without affecting the service it supplies. Without the ability to offer new users a attractive price, in competitive areas, there would be no new users.
In the same way that sky are offering Catch Up TV to subscribers. It is only those with the correct boxes that will be able to benefit. Those, like myself with an old SD box, will never be able to use without paying for an upgrade. I have also never been advised officially that Catch Up is a Sky Product.
I was on TalkTalk Unlimited on a CN20, they would not upgrade me to CN21 citing I was on fastest service 1meg max at peak times when Iplayer and youtube could not be used.
I am now with Eclipse on a constant 10mb download. Pay more with a limited CAP at a higher price. To me service is a price well worth paying for.

Lots of people used to opt for Tiscali where even with a good connection iPlayer at the lower bit rates did not play well in the evenings.

But was it advertised and sold as a low speed, cheap package with a warning that it would be unsuitable for watching iPlayer during the evening? The chances are most people buying it were inexperienced and thought that was what the internet was like. Like a lot of substandard big name offerings they rely a lot on customer inertia to keep going.

In reply to a post by jelv:

If OFCOM were so inclined they could change the situation in a simple move: set a maximum price for connections below a particular speed, with the promise that that price would be reduced further in future years.

The price that the regulator (Ofcom) forces BT Wholesale to charge in Market 1 areas has to be reasonable though. If Ofcom order BT Wholesale to lower their prices to a level which BT believes is unreasonable, BT will take it to court.

The current rules are for BTW to change the price by "11% below inflation" annually. I guess that will eventually get unreasonable

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

The current rules are for BTW to change the price by "11% below inflation" annually. I guess that will eventually get unreasonable

It seems the charge control ends on 31 March 2014.

Just to say no chasing for anyone anymore.

Did not catch the show if it went out on Radio 4, but leaving thread open if people want to continue discussion.

What was the name of the show please? We can Listen again.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

The price that the regulator (Ofcom) forces BT Wholesale to charge in Market 1 areas has to be reasonable though. If Ofcom order BT Wholesale to lower their prices to a level which BT believes is unreasonable, BT will take it to court.

OFCOM originally set it high in order to encourage LLU competition.
It did not work, now it never will.
Reducing the price gradually just means the reduction simply does not get passed on to the consumer.
It would be better to cut the CONSUMER price of old ADSLmax to minimum to encourage
BTO to invest.
Regards,
Martin

In reply to a post by martinsq:

It would be better to cut the CONSUMER price of old ADSLmax to minimum to encourage
BTO to invest.

How would it do that? Would you invest in a product you didn't have to supply, that would make a loss, because you weren't allowed to sell your existing one at a profit.

You'd just stop selling the existing one if that was forced to make a loss as well.

Agreed. Ofcom would have no business forcing ISPs, who operate in a competitive retail market, to offer lower retail prices.

Just realised - it isn't Openreach that is responsible for the provision or not of ADSL2+ services anyway. Assuming that's what the poster wants.

Neither will OR go for fibre unless one or more of its three major customers say they want it there. That seems unlikely from what the poster says.

It has been broadcast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nb28d start listening at 27:20

Apparently the reason why Market 3 prices have not been offered to existing Market 2 users is because it's they're still in a trial phase.

Edited by jelv (Wed 17-Oct-12 15:59:31)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Agreed. Ofcom would have no business forcing ISPs, who operate in a competitive retail market, to offer lower retail prices.

It is NOT a competitive market, on Market 1, BTO is the only provider !
OFCOM has the power to regulate BTO wholesale prices, as it still holding the monopoly on the copper network.
When I said "minimum" consumer price, it does NOT mean a price at which BTO makes loss,
merely a price that would incentivise them to update the equipment.
Regards,
Martin

In reply to a post by martinsq:

It is NOT a competitive market, on Market 1, BTO is the only provider !

BT Wholesale is the only wholesale provider on Market 1 exchanges. There are, however, numerous retail providers on Market 1 exchanges, who all compete with one another.

In reply to a post by martinsq:

When I said "minimum" consumer price, it does NOT mean a price at which BTO makes loss,
merely a price that would incentivise them to update the equipment.

I don't think you have understood either of my posts on that point. Neither have you clarified whether you are looking for an upgrade to ADSL2+, (WBC or LLU), or FTTx.

The ADSLx kit in the exchange does not belong to Openreach. Upgrading it is not their problem. The loss to whoever did put in ADSL2+ kit would not be on the day-to-day rental, but because of the non-recovery of the capital cost of doing the upgrade.

Cutting someone's profit margin on existing kit will not incentivise them to install new expensive kit.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 17-Oct-12 22:45:55)

Don't if it's to late to add my 2 pence to this.

Plusnet contacted me when my Market had changed, and let me know it would be getting cheaper.

In reply to a post by Timalay:

Plusnet contacted me when my Market had changed, and let me know it would be getting cheaper.

Surely this is slightly different - about Plusnet changing their pricing for Market 2 exchanges for new customers, rather than the market classification of an exchange changing.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Just to say no chasing for anyone anymore.

And refunds for all the additional money customers paid after their exchange was re-classified?

In reply to a post by kasg:

Surely this is slightly different - about Plusnet changing their pricing for Market 2 exchanges for new customers, rather than the market classification of an exchange changing.

You mean "very different", Kevin.
Posters have been complaining that Plusnet never advised them about the reduction in charges for customers served by Market 2 exchanges.
Here is a poster who was actually told by Plusnet that the costs for broadband would be lower.

Notifying people when their exchange changes from M1 to M2 is not the same thing as (not) notifying people already on M2 that the price had fallen, when it did.

(Scroll down that page and it's Chapter /Link 5).

The "Digital Editor" from The Economist was a bit up the spout though. In effect started talking about LLU. Well not quite that even. Started talking about ISPs owning the copper to the premises .

Nor did he distinguish between BT Retail and BT Wholesale. I fear he doesn't even realise the difference. As for his own BT charges, he wasn't exactly on the ball for someone with his Job Title, was he!

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 18-Oct-12 23:45:41)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Notifying people when their exchange changes from M1 to M2 is not the same thing as (not) notifying people already on M2 that the price had fallen, when it did.

I understand the sentiment behind what you're trying to say, even though what you wrote made no sense.

In this particular case, the poster was told by Plusnet that not only had the market changed but also that the broadband would be "cheaper".

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Notifying people when their exchange changes from M1 to M2 is not the same thing as (not) notifying people already on M2 that the price had fallen, when it did.

I understand the sentiment behind what you're trying to say, even though what you wrote made no sense.

Then try harder to understand it.

Digital - a word so abused it means nothing.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Digital - a word so abused it means nothing.

And one...

and two ...

Of course, it would make more sense if the OP was about binary rather than digital...

Well we all know how to express "2" digitally .

Binary hadn't occurred to me in this context anyway. I did expect one of two probable continuations from my post, but not that one .

Edited by deleted (Sun 21-Oct-12 20:56:22)

"Digital Editor". Is that one with his finger up his ....?

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

My dads exchange now has talktalk and BTW at it - does this make it market 2 or still market 1?

It doesn't matter who is there now. What matters is the plans Ofcom were privvy to back in 2010.

Can anyone tell me if it's still market 1 or 2?

Take a look at my previous post.

That has a link to the most recent Ofcom decision. It includes a CSV labelling each exchange. That list is the most up-to-date information about market classification. I haven't heard of Ofcom re-classifying anything since then...

Just check what samknows says. The Market Classifications haven't been changed since December 2010, so sam will have it right.

Changes of classification are not automatic.

As for why next door is getting a different quote from what your dad is on, maybe he is just on a legacy package and ought to move to a current one, be it residential or business.

What BT say is incorrect.

Market Classification is/was determined by OfCom, with that as the primary criterion. There are other criteria as well, such as planned addition or removal of LLU services.

The latest list is this one. There seems to be no mention of even consulting the industry about updating it. I have searched the OfCom sites/links many times looking for anything to do with it. Zilch - or at least there was about a month ago.

The business products have different prices depending on Market and the length of contract. There are 12 and 24 month variants for the options.