Prospective New User Questions?

Once FTTC is available to me (hopefully soon now) I am considering signing up to Plus.net. Reading the forums I have the following queries?

1. Some users are reporting it takes time for Plus.net to recognise a new connection once the router is plugged in. This means Openreach do not wait when they do the install. Does this mean I can't use my own router as Plus.net routers does something special?

2. To get the best deal you need to sign up with line rental what disadvantages does this have moving away from BT?

3. A self install option would be great - difficult to arrange being in during the day. I have an original BT ADSL master filter and the modem would connect to this - straightforward setup. Are there any realistic chances of self install becoming available soon?

Thanks

I can only speak from my experience of the fibre upgrade process...

In reply to a post by think26872:

1. Some users are reporting it takes time for Plus.net to recognise a new connection once the router is plugged in. This means Openreach do not wait when they do the install. Does this mean I can't use my own router as Plus.net routers does something special?

In my case the Openreach contractor didn't want to hang around while the PlusNet router got itself set up. I was very unimpressed by his whole attitude. You might be lucky to get a more conscientious engineer (maybe even a genuine BTOR one).
From what I have been told on these forums I understand that the 15 minute period is just the time it takes for the new router to be recognised on the network and then configured with its broadband username and password using the TR069 remote management service.
I can see no reason at all why you cannot use your own router as long as it supports PPPoE and you set it up with the right parameters. Equally, I understand there is no problem with using your own VDSL modem (usually built into the router) to replace both the BTOR modem and the PlusNet router. If you have a line problem you'd need to put the BTOR modem back so BT can run their diagnostics, but I'm thinking about getting a Fritz!box or maybe a Draytek 2850 to replace my BTOR modem and PlusNet router...

In reply to a post by think26872:

2. To get the best deal you need to sign up with line rental what disadvantages does this have moving away from BT?

Haven't figured out any yet apart from having to pay an extra £1 per month for CLI. I'm not sure if there is going to be a cost to move my line back from PlusNet to BT in the future, but if there is I think BT normally waive it if you sign up for a 12 month contract. Others may have more info on this - I've only just joined PlusNet.

In reply to a post by think26872:

3. A self install option would be great - difficult to arrange being in during the day. I have an original BT ADSL master filter and the modem would connect to this - straightforward setup. Are there any realistic chances of self install becoming available soon?

This site reported that there are some trials of self-install going on, but I'd be surprised if this gets rolled out in the near term. The BTOR engineer has to visit the cabinet, a few hundred metres from your front door, so it's not too much extra effort for him/her to come to the house, plug in the modem and check it works. I guess it depends how the trials go.

In reply to a post by Bright:

This site reported that there are some trials of self-install going on, but I'd be surprised if this gets rolled out in the near term. The BTOR engineer has to visit the cabinet, a few hundred metres from your front door, so it's not too much extra effort for him/her to come to the house, plug in the modem and check it works. I guess it depends how the trials go.

The difference is of course that OR can go to the cabinet any time they want, whether you are at home or not; also, if they have several installs on the same cabinet they can decide to do that with just one visit to the cabinet, but won't be able to schedule several home visits in the same time period.
So self-install would actually save a lot of engineer time, and they may not need to send half-trained contractors.
The disadvantages will be that more installs will go wrong... I guess the trials need to figure out if the engineer time saved by self install is more or less than the engineer time wasted by fixing a faulty self-install (but I wonder how much time is wasted now by having half-trained contractors )

In reply to a post by Bright:

Haven't figured out any yet apart from having to pay an extra £1 per month for CLI.

Do you mean Caller Display rather than CLI?

My understanding that although there is no charge for Caller Display with BT, you still have to sign up to BT Privacy at Home with the following terms:

In reference to www.productsandservices.bt.com/products/landline/calling-features:

A minimum call commitment of 2 calls per month is associated with this product. Calls can be chargeable or those included with your chosen call plan. A charge of £2 applies in each month that you do not make the required number of calls. Calls to the following numbers will not count towards the minimum call requirement: 0800/0808/0500 Freephone numbers; 100/198/155 Operator; 112/998/999 Emergency services; 150 BT Customer Services; 151 BT Fault Reporting; 195 Blind and Disabled Directory Enquiries; 1471/1571. Calls made using BT Broadband Talk and Chargecard are also excluded.

So there is an outside chance that you could get charged £2 per month if you do not use your home phone that much.

In reply to a post by bluefish2303:

Do you mean Caller Display rather than CLI?

Caller Display is what your phone does to represent the CLI (Caller Line Identification) information received from the network.
So you pay (or not!) BT or PN for CLI if you want to use Caller Display.
Simples

The way I read it was that I had to pay to make my CLI available to others to see...or not!!

The reason I read it this way is because when my parents-in-law switched to TalkTalk a while back, their CLI was not enabled for some reason which made it difficult to distinguish their calls from other blocked numbers.

Usually if they make a charge is for setting things up to keep your number private - so maybe TT set things up for your parents in law wrongly (assuming they haven't requested it and paid whatever charge TT makes for it).
It is of course free to enable or disable sending your number for one call only by dialling 141 or 1470 before the number - the call will cost the same as if you didn't dial these numbers.

As Uilebheist says, I meant CLI

And you pay BT or whoever to present CLI for incoming calls on your line, so you can see who is calling you with the Caller Display feature on your phone.

It sounds like your parents-in-law had CLIR (Calling Line Identification Restriction) set up on their line, to suppress presentation of CLI when they made outgoing calls.

I had BT Privacy at Home on my line ever since they introduced it, but I've never been charged for it, even though I'm pretty sure that some months I've not made the requisite calls. But then their billing system does seem to be held together by bits of string, sealing wax and sellotape.

I had BT privacy at home when I had my phone with them (years ago!) and they charged once for not making the requisite calls, although there had been many more cases I hadn't and they "should" have charged for it, but I didn't feel like reminding them

Hi there,

Just checked with our provisioning team and CLI should be enabled by default - we can turn it on or off for free, and it's a 24 hour order.

Having checked your account I can see that the £1 charge is for caller display, not for the CLI?

Nice one Matt, exactly what was trying to explain but without success!!

In reply to a post by orbrey:

Hi there,

Just checked with our provisioning team and CLI should be enabled by default - we can turn it on or off for free, and it's a 24 hour order.

Having checked your account I can see that the £1 charge is for caller display, not for the CLI?

I think we're all getting confused between the technical jargon and the marketing terms.

If I understand correctly, I think what you mean is that CLIP (CLI Presentation, as in presentation to the network and outside world) is enabled by default. Which means that when I make an outgoing call my number is presented to the person I'm calling (assuming they have a compatible phone and CLI service on their line). If you turn that feature OFF then my line has CLIR on it instead of CLIP. Thats the OUTGOING side.

On the incoming side, I can pay you £1 per month to have you send VF signals down my line with every incoming call so that my Caller Display equipment can show me who's calling. That service is called CLI (in technical jargon) and the equipment that is capable of displaying the numbers is a Caller Display. But to make things easy to understand for everyone, the whole service gets referred to as Caller Display by marketing people (I blame BT!).

So yes, I'm paying £1/month for the service PlusNet calls Caller Display and telecoms engineers refer to as CLI. And bluefish2303's parents-in-law had CLIR set up on their line by TalkTalk when what they wanted was CLIP.

Phew!

Yep. At least Ofcom (linky) say:
"What are Calling Line Identification services?" [...] after mentioninf Caller Display and Call Return (1471) they add:
"Caller Display and Call Return are both services which feature the ability to identify the caller's number and are known as Calling Line Identity (CLI) services."
Perhaps Plusnet use non-standard terminology but I don't see CLI being used as selecting CLIR or otherwise, only as receiving the caller's identification.

Thanks for the link to the Ofcom document.

For me this just serves to fuel the discussion further rather than clarify it...but I have learnt something Thanks

In reply to a post by Uilebheist:

Usually if they make a charge is for setting things up to keep your number private - so maybe TT set things up for your parents in law wrongly (assuming they haven't requested it and paid whatever charge TT makes for it).
It is of course free to enable or disable sending your number for one call only by dialling 141 or 1470 before the number - the call will cost the same as if you didn't dial these numbers.

Permanent number withholding is free (BT retail) as is exclusion from the telephone directory,and caller display &1571
With the BT unlimited plan you also get 200 SMS per month, free calls to 0870 &0845 numbers , where as you get zero SMS with plus net line rental with LRS is £10.75 pm plus net is slightly cheaper , but add charges for caller display and anything else that bt throw in with BT privacy it could be more expensive

Er - tommy? Caller display certainly isn't unconditionally free on the BT REtail E & W plan, even with BT Privacy. Maybe it is on Anytime, I don't know, but you didn't qualify the statement.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 18-Jan-13 18:48:42)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Caller display certainly isn't unconditionally free on the BT REtail E & W plan, even with BT Privacy. Maybe it is on Anytime,

It's the same whatever plan; 6+ calls/Qtr I think, or you get charged.

Yeah 6 calls or SMS txt (unlimited anytime plan) each quater or 2 per month
But the calls and txt's don't cost you if inclusive calls so it's free , better than having to pay for it on top of the other charges,

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 19-Jan-13 02:43:09)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Yeah 6 calls or SMS txt (unlimited anytime plan) each quater or 2 per month
But the calls and txt's don't cost you if inclusive calls so it's free

That's true . (And there's two "r"s in "quarter" )

In reply to a post by Bright:

BT normally waive it if you sign up for a 12 month contract. Others may have more info on this

BT will waive the fee for Caller Display if you opt for what they call 'BT Privacy' where your number will be registered with the TPS (Telephone Preference Service - for what limited good it does) and you make 2 calls/month or 6 calls/quarter (depending on your billing choice, though of course quarterly billing adds some 18 to 20 quid to the annual bill, I believe). The calls need to be potentially 'chargeable' (ie not to 0800 destinations) but can be to 0870 (including those at off-peak times when a calls package might make them 'free').

Other companies may charge more for it. The regular pricing from Openreach may be around the 2 or 2.50 mark and thus PN price is a discount rate compared with 'standard'... though of course line rental, 'included' calls and so on may affect the overall cost from each different telecom service and the cost of Caller Display is just something a user may need to factor in if they want to use it. (Of course, even if you don't accept calls, you might want to be able to receive SMS via landline, and need Caller Display service for that.)

To be honest, PN's pricing is pretty good for Caller Display and if the line rental was lower I'd consider them.

(And there's two "r"s in "quarter" )

If you plan to throw in a spelling lesson, watch out for grammar too...
There are two ...

In reply to a post by ultra:

In reply to a post by Bright:

BT normally waive it if you sign up for a 12 month contract. Others may have more info on this

BT will waive the fee for Caller Display if you opt for what they call 'BT Privacy' where your number will be registered with the TPS...

All very true, although the "it" I was referring to is the charge for re-connecting the line to BT.

PlusNet line rental is only £10.49/month if you pay for 12 months in advance, which isn't bad.

In reply to a post by ultra:

(And there's two "r"s in "quarter" )

If you plan to throw in a spelling lesson, watch out for grammar too...
There are two ...

That's cruel .

Starting the sentence with "And" isn't highly recommended either.

In reply to a post by ultra:

of course quarterly billing adds some 18 to 20 quid to the annual bill, I believe).

There is no extra charge for quarterly billing.

Perhaps you are thinking of the old paper billing discount, that has now been ceased? Or the charge for not paying by MDD, which may trigger monthly billing for all I know?

I'm on quarterly paper billing with MDD and don't pay any extra.

In reply to a post by ultra:

(And there's two "r"s in "quarter" )

If you plan to throw in a spelling lesson, watch out for grammar too...
There are two ...

To keep in context, I think you meant "there're" - but I guess you didn't know that.

Thanks for the correction. Yes, I was probably thinking of the cost of one or other. I remember discussing the charges with one of my sisters (who had a 'thing' against DD payments, and paid quarterly, but is also not internet savvy/connected, so would be hard to get certain deals). My sister overcame the problem by simply cancelling the phone in the end.

My mistake (regarding the 'it'). I suspect a number of firms will waive reconnection fee if they get your business.

In reply to a post by think26872:

2. To get the best deal you need to sign up with line rental what disadvantages does this have moving away from BT?

Thinking specifically about your question about disadvantages of line rental with Plusnet, I can only think of three from personal experience - which all relate to if you have a fault:

1. If you need to report or follow up a fault on your telephone you will have to know your username and password to talk to customer services. This could be a problem if you want someone else to report you line out of order. My previous experience with BT is they only needed to know your number.

2. You cannot do an online fault test like BT provide.

3. You cannot get a free divert to e.g. your mobile phone while your line is down.

All this relates to my own experience of over a year ago, (and I am neither a current BT nor Plusnet home phone customer) so if any of the above concern you you need to follow up direct with PN to establish current practice.

There are of course many advantages, but you didn't ask for them.

Good luck

In reply to a post by mbeenham:

This could be a problem if you want someone else to report you line out of order. My previous experience with BT is they only needed to know your number.

& they can report it online to BT w/out having to login to any account.

In reply to a post by ultra:

To be honest, PN's pricing is pretty good for Caller Display and if the line rental was lower I'd consider them.

I never paid BT a ha'penny for CLI without any chargeable calls. I think you simply have to ask for it. PN charging for CLI really does irritate me. I don't even have to pay for it with a PAYG mobile.

In reply to a post by meldrew:

I never paid BT a ha'penny for CLI without any chargeable calls. I think you simply have to ask for it.

Think you were lucky. I never paid for the calls, (as I made some calls at the weekend, and those were 'included'), but Caller Display is on the BT Price List at 9.90/quarter (inc VAT) and under Eligibility for BT Privacy they mention a 2 quid (/month) charge in months if insufficient calls are made.

In reply to a post by ultra:

In reply to a post by meldrew:

I never paid BT a ha'penny for CLI without any chargeable calls.

Think you were lucky.

Not lucky, they can be chargeable or inclusive calls.

In reply to a post by Bright:

If I understand correctly, I think what you mean is that CLIP (CLI Presentation, as in presentation to the network and outside world) is enabled by default. Which means that when I make an outgoing call my number is presented to the person I'm calling (assuming they have a compatible phone and CLI service on their line). If you turn that feature OFF then my line has CLIR on it instead of CLIP. Thats the OUTGOING side.

Further on the OUTGOING side, you can have CLI(P) set to disabled but if you want the recipient to see your CLI, just dial 1470 before their #. However, in this case, CLI revealed or not has no effect on receiving mobiles; they see your CLI anyway.

EDIT: Thanks to Uilebheist

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 20-Jan-13 23:19:15)

Isn't that the other way around? 1470 means enable CLIP if it's normally restricted, and 141 means disable it if it's normally enabled.
And if I use 141 before dialling a mobile number they don't see my number. It appears as WITHHELD or UNKNOWN.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Not lucky, they can be chargeable or inclusive calls.

In this context that poster was implying that he got CLI free without making any (chargeable or potentially chargeable) calls, considering that the inclusive call inclusion had been repeatedly mentioned in this thread. Especially when he said he had to only ask for it (CLI) , when it is only Privacy-at-Home that can only be asked for.

OTOH: If he wasn't implying that, he was making a pointless post after this subject had been done to death

Duh! You're right! Got it the wrong way round. Ta!

In reply to a post by Uilebheist:

And if I use 141 before dialling a mobile number they don't see my number. It appears as WITHHELD or UNKNOWN.

But if I dial a mobile from my normally restricted CLI (1470 or not) they always see my #.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

But if I dial a mobile from my normally restricted CLI (1470 or not) they always see my #.

What if you dial 141, in addition to the default block already in place?

You're right! "Private # calling (No Number)".

Seems 141 is stronger than normally restricted CLI; it always blocks.

141 is mentioned in Ofcom's consumer guide to CLI under "your rights as a caller". I guess if it didn't work you could complain to your phone provider.