Question about Plusnet exchange presence

Hi

can anyone tell me how Plusnet's exchange presence works, where they can and can not offer the 'cheaper' deals?

as plusnet dont appear to have any LLu (unless samknows doesnt list them) then I would liike to know how we know which exchanges they operate in where they offer cheaper deals? I assumed that it might be WBC enabled exchanges...is this correct?

I know someone who is with Plusnet getting 18Mbps (ADSL2+ so is on WBC and his exchange is WBC enabled) and is on a 60Gb limit, he needed unlimited but Plusnet would not give him the cheaper unlimited deal saying he is in a 'Market 1' exchange and does not qualify? and only offered £1 month off? this person has now signed up with BT unlimited for more money than what unlimited plusnet is because of what the rep told him?

How exactly does Plusnet presence work? what makes an exchange 'plusnet enabled' and how can we tell?


thanks

Edited by paulb100 (Tue 12-Feb-13 00:17:30)

Evening,

It's all based on OFCOM's classification of the exchange in question.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

Search for your exchange in SamKnows, it will probably confirm as you've been told that you are a "Market 1" exchange which means that BT Wholesale is the sole provider of broadband services. In other words, you don't have any other LLU providers on your exchange and therefore PlusNET don't need to be as competitive with their pricing, because their only competition is other BT WBC offerings.

As LLU providers jump onto your exchange (Sky/TalkTalk) your exchange becomes a Market 2/3/4 exchange and therefore PlusNET offer their most competitive pricing.

Cheers
Matt

In reply to a post by mabibby:

As LLU providers jump onto your exchange (Sky/TalkTalk) your exchange becomes a Market 2/3/4 exchange

Not automatically or continuously. It requires Ofcom classification and this is only done occasionally.

There is no Market 4; only Hull Area.

In reply to a post by mabibby:

....As LLU providers jump onto your exchange (Sky/TalkTalk) your exchange becomes a Market 2/3/4 exchange and therefore PlusNET offer their most competitive pricing.
Cheers
Matt

Don't hold your breath, if you on a small or rural exchange it may never happen...!

However, watch out for BT's half price and/or other offers, PlusNet will match them, just do it every 12 months and you can save quite bit.

Regards,
Martin

PlusNET don't need to be as competitive with their pricing, because their only competition is other BT WBC offerings.

This is a tad unfair on Plusnet. The reason they can charge less on Market2+ exchanges is because BT Wholesale are allowed (by Ofcom) to charge less to Plusnet on those exchanges. Plusnet, unlike other ISPs, are passing that lower pricing onto the customer. It is not that Plusnet don't need to compete so much it is that the costs to them of provisioning on Market 1 are higher.

Other ISPs charge the same no matter what it costs them so those on the Market 2+ exchanges could be thought of as subsidising the Market 1 exchanges.

A lot of people deride Plusnet for their pricing whereas they are actually basing it on what it costs them - everyone else's pricing model could be considered unfair because they don't pass on the wholesale cost savings.

What people consistently miss is that where BT Wholesale is allowed different pricing, it was also given freedom to negotiate deals with service providers

Plusnet may have a better discount that some other providers, particularly due to the volume of customers compared to everyone else apart from BT Retail

In reply to a post by mabibby:

It's all based on OFCOM's classification of the exchange in question.

Search for your exchange in SamKnows, it will probably confirm as you've been told that you are a "Market 1" exchange which means that BT Wholesale is the sole provider of broadband services.

For the reasons that XRaySpeX explained, the bold & underlined part there is no longer necessarily true.

Many exchanges that were not LLU'ed at the time of the last classification (Decemer 2010) have since got TalkTalk and/or Sky, and some that had Orange no longer have it.

In 99.9% of cases the classification given by samknows is correct, whatever the LLU list shows.

The next revision is not due until March 2014, with the classification rules likely to change at the same time.

Actually I did miss that - didn't realise it was the case. Would be interesting if a BT owned company gets a preferential discount from a BT owned company...

They don't because it would be illegal

@RobertsS:

I'm very much in doubt that SamKnows is 99.9% correct. I know of at least 5 people in 3 different towns around here that are connected to exchanges with 2 or more LLU providers but SamKnows still show them as Market 1. Exchanges in question have been LLU'd for well over a year.

My own town (Tenby) has both Sky and TalkTalk LLU but still says Market 1 and has done since the last LLU was installed in October.

Approx. number of lines is well off too - Openreach Engineer told me a while back that our Exchange serves well over 7k lines but the SamKnows page shows just 3,240.

Edited by WelshWArrior (Tue 12-Feb-13 11:21:54)

wow - ive started a good discussion here hehe

many thanks to everyone for the answers - BT charge Plusnet more in that exchange and thus costs customer more, this is the jist of it really? and in other non-market-1 exchanges it would appear that Plusnet loss on profits to pass on cheaper broadband where other ISPs just charge the same no matter what? - If thats the case then i admire plusnet for that!


thanks again and I will continue too watch this debate as i have learned something new

OH, and the exchange in question has Talk Talk LLu only - yet is Market1 - so Market1 must mean BT and 1 LLU..?

EDIT: I have heard over the years AND seen it for myself on more than one occasion that SamKnows has been incorrect with LLu operator and WBC - I think it relies on its users informing them of changes...possibly

Edited by paulb100 (Tue 12-Feb-13 13:05:21)

I think it relies on OfCom updating the Exchange status from what I have read into it. This doesn't seem to happen very often at all which would explain why my Exchange is still on Market 1 even though it's had TalkTalk and Sky supplying LLU services for a year!

so could this possibly mean that the lad's exchange is now a market 2 (as it has Talk Talk LLu , WBC and FTTC) and therefore SHOULD qualify for cheaper pricing?

In reply to a post by WelshWArrior:

@RobertsS:

I'm very much in doubt that SamKnows is 99.9% correct. I know of at least 5 people in 3 different towns around here that are connected to exchanges with 2 or more LLU providers but SamKnows still show them as Market 1. Exchanges in question have been LLU'd for well over a year.

My own town (Tenby) has both Sky and TalkTalk LLU but still says Market 1 and has done since the last LLU was installed in October.

It seems you haven't read my post properly, or XRay's at all.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by mabibby:

As LLU providers jump onto your exchange (Sky/TalkTalk) your exchange becomes a Market 2/3/4 exchange

Not automatically or continuously. It requires Ofcom classification and this is only done occasionally.

Classification is when OfCom decide. The last list was December 2010 and the next is currently forecast fo March 2014, though the whole classification system is under review.

It won't qualify until Ofcom say it does unfortunately

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

They don't because it would be illegal

Not necessarily. As long as Openreach are willing to have the same deals on the same basis with others then it is presumably OK. What they can't do is offer it to Plusnet and no-one else. You never know there may be uncscrupulous ISPs out there with very good deals with Openreach that are not passing any of the savings on (although it all comes down to profit in the end and the way an ISP charges a customer is pretty much irrelevant - the percentage profit is far more relevant in deciding if an ISP is "fair").

That was in reply to this

In reply to a post by ian72:

Actually I did miss that - didn't realise it was the case. Would be interesting if a BT owned company gets a preferential discount from a BT owned company...

Pembroke is the same - we now have LLU and the Samknows line count shows mid 7k and has done for many years despite huge amounts of building work in the last 10 years I talked with an Openjoke guy and he said the true figure would be above 10k lines. WBC date slipped back a bit again - not that I care as I jumped to O-bit as soon as I knew it was available.

Of course nothing will improve the standard of the cruddy copper we have locally - which still pegs back my lines performance to below par - and which Openjoke seem reluctant to remedy. Even the offer of Tea and Hobnobs seems to leave them uninterested

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Feb-13 14:41:38)

Terrible ain't it? In my estate the copper isn't even ducted - it's just buried!! The guy over the road had his line cut through by Gas Engineers last week and BT had to dig up 100m of road to replace the copper as it was all buried under the tarmac!

Notice no new Welsh exchange named in the latest 99 exchanges announced to be getting FTTC??

The BT modelling does not in any way take account of which country in the union an exchange and its cabinets are in. The population density of Wales is low, and is even lower still if you exclude the Newport - Swansea part of the country, sparsely populated indeed.

I'm sure those in remoter parts of Scotland feel much the same. England not so much as it's the most densely populated country of any size in Europe.

Hi there,

It looks like the guys here have already answered these questions for you but do let us know if you've got any specific questions you wanted to ask directly.

I'm sure those in remoter parts of Scotland feel much the same.

Yes.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

....
I'm sure those in remoter parts of Scotland feel much the same. England not so much as it's the most densely populated country of any size in Europe.

I beg to disagree, my exchange is 8 miles from the centre of Kent's capital, Maidstone.
It's Market 1, no sign of getting 21CN let alone fibre !

Ofcom's tardines in updating the Market classification, and the stupidity in keeping this outdated system in place is costing lot of people a lot of money !

And their job is to protect the customers...arrggghhh
Regards,
Martin