What happens during a Fibre install

As post title states, what does happen during a new fibre install?

Out ADSL2+ contract has just finished so wondering whether to continue with this (download speed 12Mbps) or move to Fibre TTC...

Does another line have to be installed along with the current copper, or in place of?

If another line install then i guess its at the side of the master socket (which is no where near the current router and has no power near it)?

Shame i didn't get an email from Plusnet to say the reduced price contract had expired, just noticed the bill had increased...

In reply to a post by 180turbo:

Does another line have to be installed along with the current copper, or in place of?

No, it uses the existing copper line from the cabinet. You will get a new faceplate on your master socket, all the other work is done at the cabinet. If your master socket is in an inconvenient place, make sure you have ordered the data extension kit (or whatever it is called now). A friendly engineer might move the master socket for you.

Edited by kasg (Fri 20-Sep-13 19:01:53)

Yes not much at all. I was thinking the same until engineer came and went within 5 minutes haha.

I have a extension socket near my pc here jsut replaced that with a new Fibre socket and bobs your uncle.

I was thinking the actual master socket had to be changed the socket directly connected to the line outside but i guess not.

32 days so far no drops perfect also getting 72mbps rather than the quoted 63mbps so well happy.

You also get a Modem installed by BT and you need to connect your Fibre router to this (the old ADSL router won't connect).

In reply to a post by marillionuk:

you need to connect your Fibre router to this (the old ADSL router won't connect).

Well it might, it depends on the router - there's nothing special about a "fibre" router, you just need one with a WAN Ethernet port.

The person you replied to has been connected for 35 days .

My engineer spent an hour on site trying to get the Fibre to work, then disappeared. He was useless; unlike Plusnet CS, who got be up and running in a couple of minutes.

I have a extension socket near my pc here jsut replaced that with a new Fibre socket and bobs your uncle.

I was thinking the actual master socket had to be changed the socket directly connected to the line outside but i guess not.

Then it sounds like your installation has been done incorrectly, unless the engineer did work you have failed to describe. That your speeds have stayed up indicates that they have done it right, or you are so close to the cab, that it makes little difference.

I have an filtered extension socket wired into the back of a filtered faceplate on the master. The modem was plugged into the extension and the rest as standard. All done in a few minutes by the Kelly man. Everything works and have been getting a steady 37 Mbps down and 9.32 Mbps up for over 4 months. Very satisfied.

In reply to a post by tehidyman:

I have an filtered extension socket wired into the back of a filtered faceplate on the master. The modem was plugged into the extension and the rest as standard.

Is that the A&B terminals on the back of the NTE5 filtered faceplate connected to a dual filtered phone and adsl socket on the extension?

Yep, thats the correct way. The OP's description, sounds iffy.

Nope showed engineer master socket wher eline went in building then showed him the extension socket next to my pc. He changed the extension socket only tested it. Got sync and away I go.

Maybe the install only really requires a socket to be replaced by a NEW master socket.

Either way my connection is currently 33 days no loss of connection. Still syncing well if not slightly better at 72mbps. But the fibre box is quite close i'd estimate direct under 100 yds.

I'm happy so maybe going of my install the master socket really doesn't need to be the one gets changed but rather a new master socket is created.

I don't haha. All i know it works and better than estimated by at least 10mbps.

The 'extension' part of the set up is data only, no speech.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by tehidyman:

I have an filtered extension socket wired into the back of a filtered faceplate on the master. The modem was plugged into the extension and the rest as standard.

Is that the A&B terminals on the back of the NTE5 filtered faceplate connected to a dual filtered phone and adsl socket on the extension?

Yes, wired with Cat5e. The Kelly man took one look and decided it was ok. Speech fine on extension

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Sep-13 17:23:57)

In reply to a post by tehidyman:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by tehidyman:

I have an filtered extension socket wired into the back of a filtered faceplate on the master. The modem was plugged into the extension and the rest as standard.

Is that the A&B terminals on the back of the NTE5 filtered faceplate connected to a dual filtered phone and adsl socket on the extension?

Yes, wired with Cat5e. The Kelly man took one look and decided it was ok. Speech fine on extension

That's interesting

Not really, it should be fine assuming the faceplate is working fine.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Not really, it should be fine assuming the faceplate is working fine.

Sorry I don't understand your reply when you say "not really", please elaborate?

* You use the same telephone line to your house as the ADSLx connection
* The engineer rings you up and says he/she are about to change the line to fibre
* Your voice line / BB goes off
* About 10-20 mins later...
* The engineer comes into your house and changes the master socket to a new filtered version. Sometimes they add an extension (if you ordered it) to move the connected socket to another location (up to 20-30M max).
* A test is done on line quality with a special meter he/she has.
* The engineer then connects the BT FTTC modem that they bring
* He/She/You connect the new Router from your ISP. This should have been pre-delivered from your ISP.
* The line starts and your ISP's router connects up. Sometimes this needs user/password to be set on your ISP's Router.
* Connect your PC etc and all is working

Takes about 30mins to 1hr max
For most people (not all) it is smiles all round...

Well, it still sounds like it was done wrong, if your cab is as close as you say, you should be seeing full 80/20 sync, and the throughput should be higher.

You said "That's interesting" in response to a post about a user commenting on Kelly accepting an old ADSL1.0 faceplate and using the extension from that.

In short its not the first case of this happening, and given working faceplate and sensible cable then no reason for it to be any worse than the VDSL Interstitial solution.

So that is the long answer to the not really comment.

I think he means throughput of 72Mbps, not sync.

oh yea of course sorry i sync at 80/20 with throughput of 73/19 so to me that looks pretty damn good lol for a wrong install

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You said "That's interesting" in response to a post about a user commenting on Kelly accepting an old ADSL1.0 faceplate and using the extension from that.

In short its not the first case of this happening, and given working faceplate and sensible cable then no reason for it to be any worse than the VDSL Interstitial solution.

So that is the long answer to the not really comment.

I found it interesting because effectively 2 filtered faceplates were in use, i.e. one on the NTE5 and one on the dual phone and adsl extension socket

An alternative method might be to use a single filtered faceplate on the NTE5 and utilise from the CAT5 one twisted pair from the A&B terminals and another twisted pair from the filtered voice terminals 2 and 5 on the filtered faceplate to a dual unfiltered adsl and phone extension socket?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I found it interesting because effectively 2 filtered faceplates were in use, i.e. one on the NTE5 and one on the dual phone and adsl extension socket

It's the same topology as two dangly microfilters connected to the same line, which is a configuration we will start to see once self-install FTTC starts.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

An alternative method might be to use a single filtered faceplate on the NTE5 and utilise from the CAT5 one twisted pair from the A&B terminals and another twisted pair from the filtered voice terminals 2 and 5 on the filtered faceplate to a dual unfiltered adsl and phone extension socket?

You could do that, but I'd run the two pairs in different cables if possible. Having filtered and unfiltered signals in the same cable may be sub-optimal from the point of view of capacitance and crosstalk.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I found it interesting because effectively 2 filtered faceplates were in use, i.e. one on the NTE5 and one on the dual phone and adsl extension socket

It's the same topology as two dangly microfilters connected to the same line, which is a configuration we will start to see once self-install FTTC starts.

Yes, except the poster is using CAT5 to link the NTE5 and extension sockets

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

An alternative method might be to use a single filtered faceplate on the NTE5 and utilise from the CAT5 one twisted pair from the A&B terminals and another twisted pair from the filtered voice terminals 2 and 5 on the filtered faceplate to a dual unfiltered adsl and phone extension socket?

You could do that, but I'd run the two pairs in different cables if possible. Having filtered and unfiltered signals in the same cable may be sub-optimal from the point of view of capacitance and crosstalk.

I agree, it would be no problem to run a separate phone cable (filtered voice) from the terminals 2 and 5 on the back of the filtered faceplate to an extension phone socket and obviously retain the vdsl signal from terminals A&B on the the back of the filtered faceplate via CAT5 to a vdsl socket.

However over a short length maybe it's possible to utilise the CAT5 for both filtered voice and vdsl signals using separate pairs?

Yes people have used CAT5 or even just CW1308 to carry both the filtered voice and the basic ADSL in the same cable bundle on two different pairs.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

However over a short length maybe it's possible to utilise the CAT5 for both filtered voice and vdsl signals using separate pairs?

It's certainly possible and, as MrSaffron acknowledges, will work. All I was saying is that if there's an alternative, I'd avoid filtered and unfiltered signals in the same cable.


The best option for FTTC is to run any extension using Ethernet, though that requires power for the modem at the NTE5. I was wondering last night if a PoE splitter like the TP-LINK TL-POE10R would bring in sufficient power over the Ethernet cable to the modem. If you were to try this, you'd need the other end of the Ethernet cable connected to an 802.3af power source, either a PoE capable switch or midspan injector like the TP-LINK TL-POE150S.

It's a shame that the BT Openreach supplied FTTC modems don't support 802.3af powering without a splitter. If they did, this would allow them to be powered from a router with a WAN port that can act as an 802.3af power source.


Of course, the modems will increasingly become an endangered species once 'wires only' FTTC rolls out, as I expect the majority of ISPs will adopt wires only and supply a single box DSL modem / router / wireless AP.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Yes people have used CAT5 or even just CW1308 to carry both the filtered voice and the basic ADSL in the same cable bundle on two different pairs.

If CAT5 is used for a "data extension" and it proves to be unsatisfactory then it can also be alternatively used as an ethernet connection between the modem/router and the computer if it's convenient to have the modem/router near the NTE5. In that case it would certainly be better to have a separate filtered voice phone cable from the back of the NTE5 filtered faceplate to a phone socket in the computer room if required...

In reply to a post by David_W:

The best option for FTTC is to run any extension using Ethernet, though that requires power for the modem at the NTE5.

Sure

Brain is full of PAC report today, but you can run 100 Mbps Ethernet and use a spare pair (is it centre pair) for carrying the PSTN side too, unless memory has totally fried that is.

Yeap quick check 100Base-TX can run over two pairs.

In reply to a post by David_W:

I was wondering last night if a PoE splitter like the TP-LINK TL-POE10R would bring in sufficient power over the Ethernet cable to the modem. If you were to try this, you'd need the other end of the Ethernet cable connected to an 802.3af power source, either a PoE capable switch or midspan injector like the TP-LINK TL-POE150S.

It's a shame that the BT Openreach supplied FTTC modems don't support 802.3af powering without a splitter. If they did, this would allow them to be powered from a router with a WAN port that can act as an 802.3af power source.

That would be 100Mbps ethernet which would be sufficient for 80Mbps vdsl?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Brain is full of PAC report today, but you can run 100 Mbps Ethernet and use a spare pair (is it centre pair) for carrying the PSTN side too, unless memory has totally fried that is.

Yeap quick check 100Base-TX can run over two pairs.

http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16... is 2 pairs only though, so using a supplied "data extension" kit may not give one the required spare pair for filtered voice?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

you can run 100 Mbps Ethernet and use a spare pair (is it centre pair) for carrying the PSTN side too, unless memory has totally fried that is.

Yeap quick check 100Base-TX can run over two pairs.

It was the long obsolete 100Base-T4 that needed all four pairs for 100Mbit/s Ethernet. This was rarely seen, even in the day - the only advantage was that it worked with Category 3 cable.

100Base-TX, which is specified for Category 5 cable and up, uses the same two pairs as 10Base-T - 1/2 and 3/6. This leaves 4/5 and 7/8 unused.

1000Base-T and 10GBase-T use all four pairs.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by David_W:

I was wondering last night if a PoE splitter like the TP-LINK TL-POE10R would bring in sufficient power over the Ethernet cable to the modem. If you were to try this, you'd need the other end of the Ethernet cable connected to an 802.3af power source, either a PoE capable switch or midspan injector like the TP-LINK TL-POE150S.

That would be 100Mbps ethernet which would be sufficient for 80Mbps vdsl?

Almost all modern 802.3af kit, including those TP-LINK boxes, supports Gigabit Ethernet. Old 802.3af midspan kit may only pass two pairs, so is limited to 100Base-TX.

In any event, the BT Openreach VDSL2 modems only have 100Base-TX network ports.

Thanks for the info, I've no experience of power over ethernet and assumed that might limit the data rate to 100Mbps even when using 4 pair CAT5

True, so down to the person buying the kits to make the right buying decision.

Based on what I've been hearing and reading all day, I suspect 99% of people will have got bored of this conversation and also have no idea what we are talking about.

I am one of those people! There's a 30m run of CW1308 Telephone Cable (4 pairs) which takes filtered voice and straight vDSL from the Master to the location of the telephone and data ports where the Phone, BT Modem, my Fibre Router and Telephone socket are located.

Never had any problems, but do benefit from being less than 200m from the cabinet, so have a strong Fibre connection (73Mb down/18Mb up).

Andrew

Edited by deleted (Fri 27-Sep-13 10:31:22)

May I ask what filtered facepate are you using on the NTE5?

It's a brand new BT faceplate, the type that stacks on top of your existing faceplate and has a cutout in the bottom so that the engineer does not need to disconnect any extensions you have on the socket.

The faceplate is a filter which splits the phone signal as it comes into your house into VDSL2 and regular phone. It presents you with an RJ11 socket at the top for VDSL2 and a standard BT 431A phone connector at the bottom.

This is not mine, but it looks like this

In reply to a post by atsw:

The faceplate is a filter which splits the phone signal as it comes into your house into VDSL2 and regular phone. It presents you with an RJ11 socket at the top for VDSL2 and a standard BT 431A phone connector at the bottom.

This is not mine, but it looks like this

MrSaffron's site has a good description and tear down of the NTE5 / interstitial filter / faceplate stack used for FTTC.

In reply to a post by atsw:

It's a brand new BT faceplate, the type that stacks on top of your existing faceplate and has a cutout in the bottom so that the engineer does not need to disconnect any extensions you have on the socket.

The faceplate is a filter which splits the phone signal as it comes into your house into VDSL2 and regular phone. It presents you with an RJ11 socket at the top for VDSL2 and a standard BT 431A phone connector at the bottom.

This is not mine, but it looks like this

Thanks for the info - it's great that your speeds are not degraded even though you are using a "30m run of CW1308 Telephone Cable (4 pairs) which takes filtered voice and straight vDSL from the Master to the location of the telephone and data ports where the Phone, BT Modem, my Fibre Router and Telephone socket are located."

While not wishing to show off, this is the very first speedtest I did after the FTTC was installed back in May. I still get the same speeds today.

FTTC Speedtest - May 2013

In reply to a post by atsw:

While not wishing to show off, this is the very first speedtest I did after the FTTC was installed back in May. I still get the same speeds today.

FTTC Speedtest - May 2013

Thanks for the further info, it just proves that you your setup works really well. Using the same cable for vdsl and filtered voice from an interstitial filtered faceplate over a length of up to 30 metres certainly seems to have no detrimental effect on your throughput speeds and latency - this would certainly be a valid setup for anyone else to use

The wiring was originally put in for ADSL. I'm a long way from the exchange, so high-quality telephone cables were used in the house to avoid any degradation caused by losses in the house wiring. On the switch to FTTC, I was worried that the cable run would not support VDSL, but the prospect of re-wiring from the Master to the location of the PC/Modem/Router was a complete non-starter (the cable goes up a floor, around the perimeter of three rooms, and back down to the ground floor before terminating at the PC). So, it was use the existing cable or nothing!

The Installation Engineer looked at my setup, inspected the telephone cable I used for ADSL and said he didn't think I'd have any problem in simply using the wires that were there for the new VDSL feed. All he had to do was install the new faceplate on the master socket, connect the modem to the data point by the PC, test the connection and that was it. Away he went with both of us very happy (him because the job was quick and simple and me because the existing wires were capable of supporting VDSL).

Andrew

He probably had to connect one twisted pair from your existing cable to the IDC block terminals on the back of the NTE5 interstitial filtered faceplate for the vdsl feed to the modem. The other twisted pair would be connected to the original NTE5 bottom plate for the filtered voice. That's if you are actually using an interstitial plate?

Non-interstitial filtered faceplates would use the A&B terminals for vdsl and the terminals 2 and 5 for filtered voice...