New to Plusnet - IP profiles on FTTC connection

Just switched yesterday (13th) to Plusnet from BT on FTTC which I had with BT and I was getting approx 50mb/s down & 12-13mb/s up.

Since switching I'm seemingly capped at 20mb/s down and won't go any higher although upload seems similar speeds. (same speeds day or night)

Am I just still subject to the 10 days training period for the connection?

I rebooted my Asus RT-N66U router after changing the connection details just to be sure & it still is the same, should I need to reboot my Openreach modem or is it not worth bothering with.

At least it's working, but just sluggish it seems.

Thanks

There is no 10-day training.

To check your IP Profile, run the BT Wholesale Performance test, preferably connected wired to the router not wireless. Make sure nobody else is using the internet but ignore the rest of the red instructions.

When you get the initial results page, click Further diagnostics at the bottom. That gives you a more detailed results page.

Please copy and paste the contents of the two text boxes - down and up. We don't need to see the graphics.

Note your IP Profile there.

Then go to this Plusnet page, (you will need to log into your account), and check the Current line speed. It should be a couple of hundred kbps below your downstream IP Profile.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

There is no 10-day training.

To check your IP Profile, run the BT Wholesale Performance test, preferably connected wired to the router not wireless. Make sure nobody else is using the internet but ignore the rest of the red instructions.

When you get the initial results page, click Further diagnostics at the bottom. That gives you a more detailed results page.

Please copy and paste the contents of the two text boxes - down and up. We don't need to see the graphics.

Note your IP Profile there.

Then go to this Plusnet page, (you will need to log into your account), and check the Current line speed. It should be a couple of hundred kbps below your downstream IP Profile.

Thanks RobertoS


BT Checker

Download speed achieved during the test was - 19.9 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 35.42 Mbps-50.6 Mbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 50.6 Mbps

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 10.68Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 20 Mbps


PlusNet

Estimated line speed:
46Mb (Download speed could vary depending on line conditions. Estimates are the maximum speeds that your phone line can support. These speeds are dependent on the package you choose.) - Checked on 2015-10-05 20:12:17
Current line speed:
21 Mb

Seems like the profiles are the same as they were with BT, just stuck on the download.

The current line speed should be 50.58. It is supposed to track the IP Profile.

You may find that a reboot of the modem, as you wondered about earlier, will trigger a (small) change of IP Profile. That happens immediately you get a different connection speed. (I suggest you leave the modem off for ten minutes before reconnecting). A new IP Profile should trigger an update a few hours later to the Current line speed. That update can fail, but in your case it could be that Plusnet have never received an update to apply anyway if you left the modem connected through the migration.

If it doesn't, then you need to ask Plusnet to correct it. But I think it will. It updates two or three times a day but only if the IP Profile has changed.

I'll try that RobertoS and see what happens.

Thanks.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think it will. It updates two or three times a day but only if the IP Profile has changed.

It going by own experience and posts on their community forum it often fails to automatically update their IP profile more so when it's in the upwards direction , or some find that it updates to the incorrect value and is set lower than it should be

Interesting read. I too was under the impression there was a 10 day 'training' period.
What happens if the BT checker says IP Profile for your line is - 70.08 Mbps but Plusnet own says: Current line speed:78 Mb

This is a new fibre install - last Tuesday. I actually think that my IP profile is nearer what the BT wholesale checker says as speedtests downloads tend to come in around 67mb. Upload profile is 20mb which is what I expected.
BT Broadband checker says
FTTC Range A (Clean) 80 80
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 80 76.7

Would a reboot of the OR modem cure anything? Or do I need to contact Plusnet?
Thanks for your assistamce

For my line the BT Wholesale checker has

"For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC or WBC SOGEA) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage."

Yes, I know, bet_here. But that is garbage.

That is a BT Wholesale page, and whilst it is relevant to ADSLx, (but not for the reason always trotted out about speeds may improve over the ten days), on FTTC it is simply untrue.

On FTTC the line sync is controlled automatically by the Openreach DLM, not the BT Wholesale one. Though at order time one of three stability levels can be ordered by BT Wholesale.

BT SIN 498 is the relevant document:-

2.2.1 Dynamic Line Management

Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is employed in GEA-FTTC. DLM constantly manages lines to maintain a target link quality (speed and stability). It does this for as long as the product exists.

At provision, the line is put on �wide open� VDSL2 line profiles allowing the upstream and downstream line speeds to run at the upper limit of the product option selected.

On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected. Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before deciding if it must intervene, provided that the line has been trained up for at least 15 minutes during the preceding day.

For information on what the 10-day period does for ADSLx, see this page. I suppose it is possible that on FTTC BT Wholesale do record the lowest sync in the ten days, but it's nothing to do with "tuning" the line and nothing to do with Openreach..

Hi 69bertie.

That's fine really, though incorrect. The Current line speed should be 70.06, but the lower of the two figures always applies. In the OP's case the CLS was way too low. Yours is at the default that Plusnet set at order time.

The worst that can happen with yours is that Plusnet allow traffic coming to you from the internet to arrive at the DSLAM faster than the DSLAM can send it to you, resulting in dropped packets that have to be retransmitted. Whereas when they have it set correctly they can buffer it to prevent that.

You could try what I suggested to the OP if you wish. As long as you don't do it loads of times in quick succession you can't do any harm.

Small update.

Rebooted the Openreach modem yesterday (left it off for about 10mins) approx 5pm.

Checked & still getting 20mb/s down.

Re-checked just now & still stuck at 20mb/s down.

Will contact Plusnet & see what they say.

It shouldn't be necessary to reboot the Modem, in fact, that could be ill advised. It should only be necessary to establish a new PPP session for BT's servers to update and promulgate the IP Profile to Plusnet.
The best way to achieve this is log into the Router and look for your Internet connection details and click on the 'Disconnect' button. Wait about 30 seconds and then click on 'Connect'. Depending on how quickly BT's servers update the Profile (as has been remarked they seem to take a long time for small upward changes) it then depends on how soon Plusnet's scripts run to update your Current Line speed (Login required)
If worst comes to the worst and it doesn't update in 24hrs (if a large change) get onto Live Chat or the Phone and request your Current Line Speed be updated to match the BT IP Profile.
(Don't forget to run the BTw Diagnostic Speed Test to check the IP Profile just before that).

Edited by ChrisAO (Sun 15-Nov-15 13:18:46)

I don't think you are correct there Chris. From the same SIN:-

2.1.6 Downstream shaping

The CP is expected to shape the downstream traffic to match the actual VDSL2 line rate in order to avoid excessive traffic loss.

CPs should be aware that the mechanism for reporting the downstream and upstream line rates relies on a line re-train causing the CP, or the CPE, to initiate a new PPP session or a new DHCP request.

On FTTC, without a re-sync Openreach do not issue a delta report, so nothing gets reported to BT Wholesale or Plusnet.

It's the delta report that triggers BT Wholesale to update the IP Profile, and hence Plusnet to update their CLS.

I think that SIN may be confusing all-in-one devices (VDSL+Router) like the BTHub5 or the Sky SR102 with the actual effects. I'm 90% certain I've seen better sync speeds only reflected in throughput after a PPP drop and reconnect.

Well Bob, not from my recollection.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It's the delta report that triggers BT Wholesale to update the IP Profile, and hence Plusnet to update their CLS.

That is absolutely correct, but

CPs should be aware that the mechanism for reporting the downstream and upstream line rates relies on a line re-train causing the CP, or the CPE, to initiate a new PPP session or a new DHCP request.

The operative bit of the quote from the SIN is the bit I've underlined. I'd have to go back and double check for a number of actual examples. At one point one gave up trying to keep abreast of Current Line Speed updates because there was a period when Plusnet's scripts were either not running or not working as they should have. Chris Purvey (Plusnet) put a lot of work into trying to get all that resolved. When I last looked at this issue, it seemed to be BT delaying the issue of the Delta reports when there was an increase. The cynic in me says that was quite deliberate as it could save quite a lot of bandwidth on the BT network.

What (I believe, but could be wrong) is that you are missing the fact it is BT Wholesale who notify Plusnet of the change.

If the sync doesn't change then BT Wholesale will not recalculate the IP Profile. (For the rest of the thread readers, IP Profile is purely a BT Wholesale invention and doesn't exist on Openreach GEA-FTTC itself). If BTW don't recalculate an IP Profile I don't think they generate a delta report from them to Plusnet. On the grounds that nothing has changed, delta = 0.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I think that SIN may be confusing all-in-one devices (VDSL+Router) like the BTHub5 or the Sky SR102 with the actual effects.

I don't think the wording of that bit has changed since the day the SIN was written, when the only kit expected was an Openreach modem. Somewhere I have a copy of a much older version, on a different machine.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 15-Nov-15 14:36:26)

OK, update Part 2.

Spoke to PlusNet, told them of the findings and they said it was a Profile issue. They changed it at their end & said wait 20-40mins and recheck.

Did so, no change, but rebooted modem & now getting my usual 50mb/s down as before.

Download speedachieved during the test was - 49.33 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 36.18 Mbps-51.69 Mbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 51.69 Mbps

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I think that SIN may be confusing all-in-one devices (VDSL+Router) like the BTHub5 or the Sky SR102 with the actual effects. I'm 90% certain I've seen better sync speeds only reflected in throughput after a PPP drop and reconnect.

When DLM makes changes on VDSL the modem will usually re establish sync quickly as a result plus net doesn't see it, (PPPOE session isn't lost ) So customers have to manually drop PPPOE session, Once when DLM made adverse changes to my connection ,pppoe session stayed up, i did nothing and was getting near the BTW IP profile in throughput within a few mbps, Pn's profile remained at the previous higher level,
Some 2 weeks later DLM completely reversed the changes made and pn's system was none the wiser, a similar thing happened again , but due to peak time congestion iissues i had to drop PPPOE session several times to hop gateways to find a less congested route, and my throughput was a lot lower than the BT ip profile, because of pn's pointless profile system
Also they are the only isp that shape incoming throughput ,aka buffering it, and the only isp to use a second IP profile to cap throughput , yet i see less dropped data packets than i did when a plusnet customer

Thanks for that info, I'll leave as is. I'm more than happy with the current speeds I'm getting.

In reply to a post by Gazanimal:

Did so, no change, but rebooted modem & now getting my usual 50mb/s down as before.
...............
IP Profile for your line is - 51.69 Mbps

Disconnecting and Reconnecting the PPP session was all that was needed to bring the amended Current Line Speed into effect, rather than risk a detrimental effect on sync speed. As it happens, you been lucky and gained a little bit in your profile 51.69 vs 50.6, but I seriously suggest you be careful about randomly rebooting the Modem.

I didn't random reboot the modem.

PlusNet support recommended it if my speeds didn't automatically increase after 40mins of waiting.

Sorry, I wasn't clearer. By "random" reboot I mean rebooting it just because something doesn't seem right. Rebooting the Modem on FTTC should be an absolute last resort if all other attempts to resolve an issue have failed.

Are you sure Plusnet didn't tell you to reboot the Router, as opposed to the Modem? That would have the same effect as Disconnect/Connect.
If they indeed tell you to reboot the Modem, then that was very wrong. That's the trouble with first line support, most of the time they haven't a proper clue.

There is far less to worry about in rebooting an Openreach FTTC modem than there has ever been rebooting a modem or modem/router on a BT Wholesale ADSLx connection.

The BT Wholesale DLM on ADSLx, whilst not as bad as it used to be, is still very unforgiving once it decides there is a problem. The Openreach one on FTTC rarely does anything worse than introduce interleaving and an 8ms addition to latency. It will remove them after a while if the problem was short-lived.

Obviously if there has been an ongoing degradation in the line characteristics the action may continue or even become more severe, but that isn't the scenario under discussion.

A few reboots of a modem will not cause banding to be applied - that is the nasty, but even if that happens it has been known to self-reverse.

The BT Wholesale ADSLx one will never remove interleaving automatically once applied.

Well I'm not agree with you Bob for the following reasons -
Until these last two posts users could be left with an impression that a reboot of the Modem any old time is fine
1) Most FTTC users cannot see their stats, but in particular the SNRM. If that happens to be below the Target SNRM of 6dB at the moment of reboot, you'll end up with a slower sync speed. The converse is of course true.
2) If you happen to have other issues with your connection (and possibly not aware) had a dropped connection, errors quite high, and so on - that reboot at just the wrong time can cause DLM to act.
3) So you think introducing Interleaving and increasing ping time by 8ms isn't particularly important - well a lot of Gamers would strongly disagree with you.
4) Depending on the circumstances, yes Banding could get introduced, and there's plenty moaning about that as well..

Whilst you say that ongoing degradation can result in the actions we've mentioned, if indeed they are short lived, the DLM actions can (and have been known) to self-reverse BUT on many occasions this can take weeks and weeks and weeks.

I don't agree that ADSLx DLM is less forgiving just because it won't remove Interleaving - I don't remember any cases with Interleaving BUT certainly with Banding it has been known to remove Banding.
HOWEVER with ADSLx, if one has had a problem or been a bit daft with reboots or whatever and the problems are fixed, the ISP can simply do an SNR Reset. Also Interleaving can be turned Off permanently which can be very important to Gamers.
That is NOT possible on FTTC, ISPs do not have that ability, it's down to OR - the only time a reset tends to get done is after a fault repair.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The Openreach one on FTTC rarely does anything worse than introduce interleaving and an 8ms addition to latency.

It isn't going to do that for a few modem reboots. Also note:-

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As long as you don't do it loads of times in quick succession you can't do any harm.

I stand by what I said to the other posters.

Seeing as you went into minutiae, you don't mention the fact that sometimes interleaving and 8ms added to latency can be good for gamers, helping prevent packet loss and over-compensation by several game servers that slug very low latency connections.

I was trusting to the good sense of the people I was advising. I shall leave it at that, and let them judge our conflicting opinions.