Fibre install BTO no show + ADSL Line changed for worse

Oh what a day.

I just need to share this farce with somebody and hopefully I may get some inspiration about what to do next.

I've been on Sky LLU for the past 3 years (and before that UKO)
My line has DLM suspended and capped at 17.5mb down (sync 15.5-17.5 depending on what modem i used), Max delays were set at 8ms, giving me a ping to UK of ~20ms.
Line attenuation is 29-31 depending on modem used. Snr down of 7.
Its been like this for years - rock solid.

So my exchanged was Fibre enabled in September and I promptly ordered Fibre Pro with Sky.
Installation date 23/11/12 8am-1pm.

Several confirmation texts and emails even a text last night to say don't forget your appointment 2mrw etc etc..... things looked good......untill today.

At 1:10pm the BTO rang and said he wasn't coming as BT had run out of modems. I said how could that happen ? Surely you knew how many installs you were doing today and set off with the correct amount of stuff ????
He explained losing his rag that he'd been in Lowestoft all morning doing installs, then drove over to Norwich to do me. He had to collect the modem from the Norwich depot......but the'yd ran out.
I said i'd taken a day off work today unpaid and lost £150 due to this, at which point he said look i'm not interested and take it up with BT. I asked for his name and he hung up.

So, I get on the phone to Sky and i'm on hold for 20-30 mins when my phone cuts off, I check my internet, that's down aswell.

5 mins later they come back on and i'm horrified to see my usual sync of 15.5mb (with my Draytek Vigor 120) is now 10mb, and my pings trebled from ~20-~70ms. Attenuation is still 30,Snr is still 7. Upload dropped from 1.1mb to 0.7mb.
IP address is in range of 2.xx not 90.xx like used to be.

Phone Sky back, regardng the Fibre, they apoloigse and say I can have a revisit on 19th Dec.
But the real fun and games start now.............

I explain about the speed drop and i'm shocked for the agent to explain to me that I had migrated from BT's network to Skys network today... [censored] ?
I slowly and carefully explained i'd been on Sky LLU for last 3 years and before that UKO for that matter.

The agent insisted that i'd not been on Skys network and that and had migrated in today.

So no Fibre, drop in ADSL speeds by a third, pings trebled, upload dropped by a quarter.

ALL IN ALL A DISASTER

What could have happened ???

The only thing i can think is that I opted out of the SVBN a few years ago and today ive been put on it in prep for the fibre ?

What can/should I do guys gals ???? I'm so angry it's untrue.

I would stop getting in a state about any of this, after all why worry about ADSL now as you will soon be going over to FTTC. It is very unfortunate that Openreach should have cocked this up, but Dec 19th is not too long away.

In the mean time have a look on e-bay and buy yourself an Openreach VDSL modem, a spare is always handy and if they run out again you will be covered.

I take it the Sky router has arrived.

He has every right to taking a day off work this near to Xmas for what nothing... I know how you feel open Rachel missed am appointment with me you get really cheesed off

My line dropped out a week before install of Fibre as they put me on the Sky line and this left me without internet from my current ISP, fortunately I had a phone with unlimited internet and not a bad speed so used that for the week, although it was great from gaming. I�m from Lowestoft, but my install was a few weeks ago, so I didn�t use your modem on my install

I'd be miffed off too though! Especially when you get geared up for the install and then the disappointment. fortunately I live just round the corner so put a note on my door for the install engineer to call me when he arrived, which he did.

Edited by deleted (Fri 23-Nov-12 16:17:40)

Yeah CST just confirmed i'd been moved onto SVBN.
Looks like it doesn't like my Vigor 120 too much.

They managed to tweak the line to 14/1.1mb with Delays of 8ms (although my pings remain higher than they used to be by about an extra 10ms)

Just more annoyed with the loss of a days earnings as i'd taken unpaid leave today.
Hope it doesn't happen on the 19th again.

Sky will lodge a complaint against the BTO engineer, but as far as them compensating me for anything...nada.

Ah well, calming down abit now, my fibre cabinet has been in since April so another 3 weeks of waiting wont kill me i suppose !!!!!!

Presume phone line rental is with Sky?

So probably took the opportunity to move your from WLR+SMPF to MPF, where the phone and BB is via their hardware. Different DSLAM so explains change in performance.

Excuse from Openreach does such, but if sales are going up they are probably getting more and more pressed to meet deadlines .

Probably no compensation, but an apology might help a little bit.

In reply to a post by slickric21:

Looks like it doesn't like my Vigor 120 too much.

Highly possible.

You should have received your Sky router by now as you would have had to plug it into the Openreach modem. You should try connecting this and see if you get better speeds.

Are you going onto 40/10 for £20? I'm on that and it works really well. More than enough speed for what I need anyway.

@ MrSaffron - yeah line rental with Sky, I believe now that SVBN is a prerequisite for Fibre so thats why they moved me.

Regarding the SVBN iir its Broadcom ?

Ive got quite a collection of routers here...
Sky DG834GT with DGteam (Broadcom ?)
Sky Sagem 2504n v6 (Broadcom)
Sky Hub (chipset ???)
Billion 7204nx (Conexant/Solos)
Draytek Vigor 120 (Infineon) - used with Netgear 3800 running DDWRT - using currently.

I was going to set up the DG834GT for the next month and have a tweak of the snr but didnt consider the new Sky hub if i'm honest,may have a play with that aswell.

@ BenBird7 and i'm going for the Fibre Pro live approx 15 mtrs from cabinet, they forecast i'll get 76mb so i thought why not.

you most likely get the max 80mb if your close to the cab, they are not allowed to say any thing higher then 76mb, and they norm now way underestimate it to keep punters happy on longer lines

and due to the Upto speed rubbish on ADSL lines as the avg was more like 5mb or lower on ADSL 24mb was an dream (speed checkers still overestimate on ADSL)

how do you get around Sky with the username and password they tend to Flat out refuse to give unless you threaten them to leave as one of my customers did (never knew you could get the username/password out of sky before that)

Sky DG834GT with DGteam (Broadcom ?) - no good if using wifi as it's G only. Max's around 22Mbps on wifi.

Sky Sagem 2504n v6 (Broadcom) - It's quite decent. Wifi tops around 50Mbps.

Sky Hub (chipset ???) - Great wifi range. Performance tops around 50 - 60Mbps on wireless.

Billion 7204nx (Conexant/Solos) - Never been a fan of Billion stuff...

Draytek Vigor 120 (Infineon) - used with Netgear 3800 running DDWRT - using currently. = Great stuff, can easily pull full fibre speeds over Wifi. The only downside is the range isn't brilliant and is over-rated. I used a 4500 and 3700 and found the Sky Hub had better range!!! I can't see the 3800 being much different. Actual performance wise though this is brilliant.

When you get fibre you HAVE to use the SKY Hub due to their forced MER encryption. There are ways around but they are really messy and involve playing with DDWRT or something similar & even then people have found performance to be very poor and speeds degraded.

The way I would setup =

Openreach modem - sky router - Netgear 3800.

Turn off DHCP on the netgear & wifi off on the sky hub.
Connect the sky router to the netgear via standard ethernet ports not via the WAN port.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sat 24-Nov-12 04:55:33)

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

When you get fibre you HAVE to use the SKY Hub due to their forced MER encryption. There are ways around but they are really messy and involve playing with DDWRT or something similar & even then people have found performance to be very poor and speeds degraded.

Hang on, that's not right.

MER isn't encryption, its just Sky's name for the same way that BE/O2 connect (IPoA). What Sky has altered is the DHCP which requires the hidden username and password to be provided before you get an IP address. Some router makes (Billion and Draytek) have modified firmware that works with Sky's strange DHCP.

The problem will be getting the username and password out of the Sky Hub - that's where there are issues.

No there are no performance issues with changing the Sky router but people might be using old [censored] routers and not realising you need a fairly quick box to handle 76Megabit/sec.

Yeah ive got the Password & Username from the SkyHub using wireshark packet sniffer.


I tried the Sky Hub this morning, it syncs the same as the Draytek Vigor @ 14.1/1.1mb but oddly and pleasingly pings are lower back at ~20ms vs ~30ms.

Still the full LLU SVBN is not as good for sync speeds as being on the non SVBN/ Easynet LLU,
as with a matching chipset for the old Easynet kit eg my Billion that synced 16-17mb & 1.3mb up.
A matching chipset for the SVBN eg Sky Hub only manages 14.1mb & 1.1mb.
The Draytek synced 15.5-16mb on Easynet, 14mb on SVBN.

Anyway at least ive got some semblance of a decent connection again untill BTO get their chance again on the 19th Dec.

Just re the Sky Hub, the interface is nice and easy & fast, but wireless range is much poorer than my Netgear 3800.

When i get Fibre eventually no question i'll be running BTO Modem > Netgear 3800.
Im already running DDWRT and its just a matter of copy and pasting a command into it to get it to log in to the Sky service.

Sorry MER is not encryption.

However it is not the same as o2 and BE. FAR FROM IT.
Sky have modified it as you say yourself.

If you buy a standard router by e.g. NETGEAR BELKIN etc it will not work on sky's fibre optic service full stop without using some kind of customised firmware. This is assuming you are trying to bypass the sky router completely.

YES billion and draytek have firmware available however these routers are expensive and certainly not everyones favourite router.

DDWRT performs poorly and when I used it it resulted in my speedtests going as low as 14Mbps via wired. I used it on a very powerful tp-link router with gigabit ports... It is well documented on websites such as sky user that this causes issues with speeds very often. Also when sky changed the firmware on their own router my DDWRT stopped working and I had to update DDWRT with the new firmware info manually.

Also Sky do not support not using their provided router.

The best way to do this is to use modem - sky hub - own router.
You then are not breaching sky's T&C, still using your own router & have no complications. Plus you are not forced to use a selected billion / draytek brand or a DDWRT compatible brand.

On Sky ADSL you just extract the username and password & enter this into the modem router. It then works.
Sky Fibre is nothing like this. It wont just work so easily on the likes of a belkin, netgear, tp-link etc.

You do not have to use sky's router but not doing so breaks T&C and isn't as easy as on ADSL

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sat 24-Nov-12 16:33:45)

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Sorry MER is not encryption.
However it is not the same as o2 and BE. FAR FROM IT.
Sky have modified it as you say yourself.

Well its essentially the same BE/O2 apart from the MODIFIED DHCP as I explained. The modification to DHCP is only strange in the domestic market, its a common setting in corporates.

If you buy a standard router by e.g. NETGEAR BELKIN etc it will not work on sky's fibre optic service full stop without using some kind of customised firmware. This is assuming you are trying to bypass the sky router completely.

Yes, these "standard routers" are meeting the market demand around the world. So any ISP doing something out of the ordinary is not catered for. Similar occured with the ISP BigPond in Australia.

YES billion and draytek have firmware available however these routers are expensive and certainly not everyones favourite router.

Yes, the Draytek's aren't cheap, the Billions are a bit cheaper - but the point was they work. You can attach a linux box directly to the Openreach modem and configure DHCP correctly and it works on a Sky FTTC line.

DDWRT performs poorly and when I used it it resulted in my speedtests going as low as 14Mbps via wired. I used it on a very powerful tp-link router with gigabit ports... It is well documented on websites such as sky user that this causes issues with speeds very often. Also when sky changed the firmware on their own router my DDWRT stopped working and I had to update DDWRT with the new firmware info manually.

I'll take you word on that, I've never used DDWRT.

Also Sky do not support not using their provided router.

Yep, that has been the same since Sky started.

The best way to do this is to use modem - sky hub - own router.

Which means if your router has WAN features such as VPN, or DDNS that the Sky router doesn't support, you can't use them. You're also introducing double NAT which some applications have a problem with. Its a very inelegant solution.

You then are not breaching sky's T&C, still using your own router & have no complications. Plus you are not forced to use a selected billion / draytek brand or a DDWRT compatible brand.

I never said you were forced to use those brands, just they had software as they were responsive companies. Netgear could do a firmware but its impossible to talk to anyone at netgear.

On Sky ADSL you just extract the username and password & enter this into the modem router. It then works.
Sky Fibre is nothing like this. It wont just work so easily on the likes of a belkin, netgear, tp-link etc.

Not if you're on MER I'm told by friends of mine. Only if your line is on PPPoA. Fibre however is a lot easier, just plug in a linux box and set it up as a router.

You do not have to use sky's router but not doing so breaks T&C and isn't as easy as on ADSL

You said that above

In reply to a post by slickric21:

When i get Fibre eventually no question i'll be running BTO Modem > Netgear 3800.
Im already running DDWRT and its just a matter of copy and pasting a command into it to get it to log in to the Sky service.

Great - don't forget to do some speed tests using the Sky Hub and then the Netgear plugged into the Openreach modem. Don't whatever you do power off the Openreach modem or disconnect it from the phone line for the first 2 days after installation.

I do take back some of what I have said.

DDWRT has advanced more solution wise compared to when I tried. I was part of the fibre trial so was one of the first. It looks to work well nowadays. In fact I'm going to give it another shot soon!!
Double NAT agreed. In practice it's generally ok.

I stand corrected on many things though.

I solve double NAT using DMZ thought I should add.

In reply to a post by slickric21:

Yeah ive got the Password & Username from the SkyHub using wireshark packet sniffer.


I tried the Sky Hub this morning, it syncs the same as the Draytek Vigor @ 14.1/1.1mb but oddly and pleasingly pings are lower back at ~20ms vs ~30ms.

Still the full LLU SVBN is not as good for sync speeds as being on the non SVBN/ Easynet LLU,
as with a matching chipset for the old Easynet kit eg my Billion that synced 16-17mb & 1.3mb up.
A matching chipset for the SVBN eg Sky Hub only manages 14.1mb & 1.1mb.
The Draytek synced 15.5-16mb on Easynet, 14mb on SVBN.

Anyway at least ive got some semblance of a decent connection again untill BTO get their chance again on the 19th Dec.

Just re the Sky Hub, the interface is nice and easy & fast, but wireless range is much poorer than my Netgear 3800.

When i get Fibre eventually no question i'll be running BTO Modem > Netgear 3800.
Im already running DDWRT and its just a matter of copy and pasting a command into it to get it to log in to the Sky service.

Okay just a little update on this. The whilst the Sky Hub is alright, I was getting frustrated by the lack of gigabit ports which are hampering my file transfers over our network (PC>mediaplayer mainly) and poor wireless range (vs my 3800 with DDWRT which has far better range and speed)

So I got thinking about using my DG834GT in modem only mode bridged to my 3800.
I set it to Modem only & to use the MER settings - 0,40,VC.
Then on my 3800 used the option 61 command

killall udhcpc
/usr/sbin/udhcpc -i eth1 -c "username@skydsl|password" -p /var/run/udhcpc.pid -s /tmp/udhcpc

Whilst i was at it I tweaked the snr on the DG834Gt to 40%.
It syncs at 15.5/1.1mb, hope it holds snr is sitting at 4db now.
(Without the snr tweak it synced at 14.3/1.2)

All working fine, now i'm back to some semblance of my old speeds and using all the goodness of the 3800.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

When you get fibre you HAVE to use the SKY Hub due to their forced MER encryption. There are ways around but they are really messy and involve playing with DDWRT or something similar & even then people have found performance to be very poor and speeds degraded.

I'm using a BiPAC 8200N. OK the speed is a slight issue in VDSL2 mode but it's sort of expected with beta firmware. I works fine as a router in EWAN mode though and dead easy to set up.

BTW the username and password from any Sky router can be used with fibre.

I tried it on DDWRT again and it seems fine now.

During the fibre trials a long time ago I had a few issues but things have changed now and ways of doing things have advanced.

I accept that now it works quite well.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

MER isn't encryption, its just Sky's name for the same way that BE/O2 connect (IPoA). What Sky has altered is the DHCP which requires the hidden username and password to be provided before you get an IP address. Some router makes (Billion and Draytek) have modified firmware that works with Sky's strange DHCP.

DHCP Option 61 which Sky uses is actually defined in RFC 2132 and AFAIK is a standard method for obtaining an IP address that can be used by ISP's etc.

In reply to a post by simon194:

DHCP Option 61 which Sky uses is actually defined in RFC 2132 and AFAIK is a standard method for obtaining an IP address that can be used by ISP's etc.

Thanks for confirming - I thought I read it was documented somewhere! I suspect its not very common as no domestic router vendor had support for it already.

I know years ago routers sold for US cable networks used to allow for specific hostnames in the DHCP request for authentication. That was different.

would openreach do an install using a unauthorised modem tho?

In reply to a post by slickric21:

Oh what a day.

I just need to share this farce with somebody and hopefully I may get some inspiration about what to do next.

I've been on Sky LLU for the past 3 years (and before that UKO)
My line has DLM suspended and capped at 17.5mb down (sync 15.5-17.5 depending on what modem i used), Max delays were set at 8ms, giving me a ping to UK of ~20ms.
Line attenuation is 29-31 depending on modem used. Snr down of 7.
Its been like this for years - rock solid.

So my exchanged was Fibre enabled in September and I promptly ordered Fibre Pro with Sky.
Installation date 23/11/12 8am-1pm.

Several confirmation texts and emails even a text last night to say don't forget your appointment 2mrw etc etc..... things looked good......untill today.

At 1:10pm the BTO rang and said he wasn't coming as BT had run out of modems. I said how could that happen ? Surely you knew how many installs you were doing today and set off with the correct amount of stuff ????
He explained losing his rag that he'd been in Lowestoft all morning doing installs, then drove over to Norwich to do me. He had to collect the modem from the Norwich depot......but the'yd ran out.
I said i'd taken a day off work today unpaid and lost £150 due to this, at which point he said look i'm not interested and take it up with BT. I asked for his name and he hung up.

So, I get on the phone to Sky and i'm on hold for 20-30 mins when my phone cuts off, I check my internet, that's down aswell.

5 mins later they come back on and i'm horrified to see my usual sync of 15.5mb (with my Draytek Vigor 120) is now 10mb, and my pings trebled from ~20-~70ms. Attenuation is still 30,Snr is still 7. Upload dropped from 1.1mb to 0.7mb.
IP address is in range of 2.xx not 90.xx like used to be.

Phone Sky back, regardng the Fibre, they apoloigse and say I can have a revisit on 19th Dec.
But the real fun and games start now.............

I explain about the speed drop and i'm shocked for the agent to explain to me that I had migrated from BT's network to Skys network today... [censored] ?
I slowly and carefully explained i'd been on Sky LLU for last 3 years and before that UKO for that matter.

The agent insisted that i'd not been on Skys network and that and had migrated in today.

So no Fibre, drop in ADSL speeds by a third, pings trebled, upload dropped by a quarter.

ALL IN ALL A DISASTER

What could have happened ???

The only thing i can think is that I opted out of the SVBN a few years ago and today ive been put on it in prep for the fibre ?

What can/should I do guys gals ???? I'm so angry it's untrue.

This the exact same thing that happened to me today!

I was previously on O2 with a 12Mb down and a 1.2Mb upload.

My fibre activation was set for today 12/12/12

I got a text message like to remind me my installation is due to complete today. I was given a time between 1-6pm for the engineer to turn up. naturally I took a day off so i can be here when he he turns up.

So the waiting game begins. 2 o`clock comes, No engineer 4 o clock come no engineer At this time i started to get worried, by 4:30 i decide to ring up sky to find out whats going on. after 20 minutes on hold the line starts to crackle and cuts off. I started to get excited thinking the engineer is at the cabinet and is changing over equipment hence the cut off. I happily wait for the engineer to arrive...... An hour later theres no sign of him....... At this point a called sky again to find out whats going on. 20 minutes on hold and i get cut off again.

I checked my router to find my line has dropped from 12Mb down to 4Mb and upload has gone down from 1.2Mb to 600 KBps

I was fuming! at this time i called sky again.... 40 minutes later a women answers and i go through the process of telling them what has happened and asking them why it did. she`s very apologetic and puts me on hold. 10 minutes later she comes back saying there are conflicting reports on the engineer report. first one says he visited my property but no one answered the door! is said WHAT? i have been sitting here for almost 6 hours there has been no that rang my bell. She then goes on by saying there is another note here that says the engineer has missed the appointment, which sounded more like the true story,

I now have to wait till the morning BT can book me another appointment. Which can take upto 4 weeks.

Luckily i was told if i plug in the BT hub i might still be able to get on the net at the lower speed, which oddly worked. so im now browsing the net at a 1/3 of the speed i was getting with O2

Im in 2 minds about cancelling the order and moving to BT Infinity.

Edited by deleted (Wed 12-Dec-12 22:46:50)

It sounds like the damage has been inflicted on you by BT Openreach, rather than Sky. I recommend you hang on in there with Sky.

Late reply.

You are fully entitled to bill Sky for the BTOR no-show. Just file it as a small claim if they give you any hassle when you phone up to complain. They'll cough up immediately (They don't have any choice).

Kas,

Sorry to hear you have the same situation as me.

Write a strong letter of complaint and e-mail it to Sky.

I did and they got back to me 4 days later by telephone and while it wouldn't be fair for me to divulge exactly what the agent offered me.... lets just say i will recoup my £150 lost earnings after nine months

They also tried their damnedest to get me an expedited appointment, but due to the nature of my install (im on Sky full LLU now) it wasn't possible.

So still waiting for my 2nd date of the 19th..... Fingers crossed.

In reply to a post by slickric21:

So still waiting for my 2nd date of the 19th..... Fingers crossed.

Install day.... 4pm and still no show.

Not coming are they ???????

Well just to finish off this thread.

The BTO engineer called at 5:45pm on the install day 19th and said he was running late, would it be ok if he came at 7:30pm. So he did and was done by 8pm still with another job to do !! So respect to him for finishing the jobs

Happy with Fibre think im getting the full 80/20 judging by my speedtest 77/19Mbps and throughput 9.6MB/s & 2.4MB/s

Finally....

Edited by deleted (Sun 23-Dec-12 15:08:55)

Just in time for Christmas

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

would openreach do an install using a unauthorised modem tho?

First of all apologies for this late reply.

My own installation was carried out by a very happy chap when he discovered that I had my own original filter faceplate, had run an extension and had a vdsl modem.

He left me the modem he would have fitted, along with a vdsl faceplate, and once a connection was established (using my Billion router) he was off.

A bit off topic but some time I wondered if the ring line connection in the VDSL faceplate was a filtered connection from the master socket (perhaps a cost saving measure) Happy to confirm that like other filter faceplates it uses a capacitor connected on the filtered output and the VDSL faceplate connects to only the line pair at the NTE test socket.

Edited by deleted (Mon 24-Dec-12 15:49:38)

Yeah the engineer who did mine was similar to the above experience.

I'd already got an RJ11 Pro Plus from my master socket running to under stairs cupboard where my modem/routers live.
He just swapped out my ADSL nation faceplate for the VDSL one, he gave me the modem and said its ok for me to connect it all up myself whilst he busied himself with the faceplate.
He didn't even mind that I connected the ECI modem straight into my Netgear 3800.
All he did was ask for the serial number off the Sky hub.

Once all set up, we synced up, checked the speed, and off he popped.

Awesome old bloke.