Zen and CityFibre - passing the buck on full-fibre install

This is not the first time I am using the forum both to seek advice and to let off steam! I'm a Zen customer. Zen are the ISP at our home in Scotland. They provide an FTTC broadband service (FTTP not yet available in our location) and VOIP. After some major incompetence over the original switch from Plusnet in Jan 2025 - described in a separate post - the Zen service has been solidly reliable. That's the good news.... Now for the latest episode in the saga.

We have a flat in Newcastle (Inherited from our late parents-in-law) which we use essentially as a second home when we visit.. It is a ground floor flat in a modern purpose-built apartment block. For several years we have had Plusnet broadband there along with their 'home phone' service, using the original BT phone line into the flat (ie an FTTC connection). Recently we relinquished the landline phone as we did not need it and knew that traditional landline phones were due to be phased out.

This month, our current [24 month] contract with Plusnet for broadband at the flat came to an end. As the managing agents for the apartment block had fairly recently arranged for CityFibre to install a full fibre (FTTP) connection and network into the entire building, we decided to get a full-fibre service into our flat. This meant placing an order with any one of the dozen or so ISPs that "partnered" with CityFibre to provide a service using their network . Zen was one such ISP, so we placed an order with them.

In theory, the process should have been simple and straightforward. Both CityFibre and Zen confirmed the order and sent guidance explaining that an engineer would have to visit in order to drill a hole in the wall of our flat to bring the fibre-optic cable from the connection-box in the lobby/hallway of the building through into our flat, where they would install an ONT on the inside of the wall in our study/bedroom. An appointment date was fixed: we had to arrange a special trip down from Scotland - two days plus an overnight stay - in order to be present and enable access to the premises by the CityFibre engineer.

The day came. The engineer who came wore a CityFibre jacket but was actually from Kelly Communications, their subcontractor. He arrived at the property with no information about the floorplan or layout of the flats in the building. He had no idea - and seemed not to understand - how the fibre network had been installed (by CityFibre!) within the building. He appeared not to know how and why the fibre-optic connection boxes had been fitted in the service-cupboards outside the entrance to each flat. At one stage he claimed that they should be "normally located above the entrance door to each flat". We had to arrange with neighbours for him to look at the way the fibre cables had been routed into the service-cupboards in the landing/hallway of each floor and connected into some of the other adjacent flats in the building. He had no information or diagrams indicating where and how the other services (electricity wiring, water pipes etc) were located - they too are routed into and through the same service-cupboards. He then spent considerable time trying - and failing - to telephone various supervisors or technical advisers or managers to get advice. Most were evidently unreachable. He complained that their phones were switched off or that they were "in meetings". Whoever he did manage eventually to contact had no clear idea about the routes of the fibre cables into and around the building. He was having to seek advice remotely on the basis of images he sent them using his mobile phone camera.

In principle the task was simple. A single hole needed to be drilled from the service cupboard directly through the wall into the adjacent bedroom/study in our flat, to feed the very slim and fragile fibre-optic wire through to where the ONT needed to be fixed adjacent to a power-socket (for the Zen router). But the engineer was hesitant or unwilling to do this without authority from his technical supervisors or a surveyor. It seemed he was concerned about the risk of hitting some wiring or pipework within the wall (there is no obvious evidence of this...).

Instead he suggested an indirect route for the cable - through the front wall beside the flat's entrance door, along the hallway skirting board, through an internal wall into the back of a built-in wardrobe, around the inside of the wardrobe, through another partition wall into the study/bedroom, along the skirting board and up to the location where he would put the ONT. This alternative meant drilling through three walls and having the fragile optic cable make no less than eight or nine 90-degree bends.

He admitted that this was "a bodge", was technically unsatisfactory, would degrade the signal, result in significant data loss and slower speed, and was in practical and visual terms undesirable. We told him that it was unacceptable. In other flats, the fibre-optic cable had been routed straight through the wall between service-cupboard and bedroom/study.

The engineer concluded that the only way forward would be to have a survey-engineer (he referred to "an auditor") inspect the site and indicate and authorise where the hole for the cable should be drilled in order to install the feed and an ONT in our flat. He said he would report and recommend accordingly. So after three hours (and our three-day visit and stopover) the installation was not carried out.

We contacted Zen to report all this and to ask them to arrange with CityFibre for a survey and for a satisfactory decision on the cable-route and ONT installation. We warned that we would need firm assurances about the attendance of surveyor and engineer on the same day and completion of the installation, before arranging a second three-day visit down from Scotland.

Zen Customer Services initially agreed to pursue this with CityFibre. But two days later we got a message from them saying that CityFibre would not carry out a survey but would only arrange another engineer visit (the same or a different engineer), who would assess and decide the route for the cable.

This is unsatisfactory. It takes us no further forward. We have told Zen, and asked them formally to escalate the matter with CityFibre and also within Zen's own management, in order to ensure delivery of a sensible and technically-competent solution. We await a response. But already it seems that we face the possibility of pass-the-parcel between Zen, CityFibre, and Kelly Comms the subcontractor, with none taking direct responsibility for decisions and delivery.

We seem to be in a Catch 22 situation. If Zen cannot sort things out, there seems no advantage in looking to an alternative ISP, since each and all of them will in any case be relying on CityFibre (and their subcontractor) to do the installation work, route the cable, and fit the ONT.

And it seems that if we abandon the idea of getting full fibre (FTTP) into our flat - even though there is a fibre service into the building - then we may no longer be able to revert to the previous arrangement of an FTTC broadband connection using the BT line which originally provided the landline phone. Apparently ISPs will not now accept an order for such a service ..... because FTTP is shown as being available, courtesy of CityFibre, into the apartment block!

What are the chances, and what are the options, for solving this problem, I wonder....

Unless your flat in an exchange area is in a current fibre priority programme you should be able to order or migrate the existing WBC FTTC service to SOGEA If there are no restrictions Not sure about them selling New SOGEA services what does this say https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Unless your flat in an exchange area is in a current fibre priority programme you should be able to order or migrate the existing WBC FTTC service to SOGEA If there are no restrictions Not sure about them selling New SOGEA services what does this say https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

Thanks Tommy - but you'll have to explain/translate how to use that BT Wholesale broadband checker. I am not at the flat in Newcastle right now: I'm up in Scotland.

The BT website asks me to put in either the phone number or the DN/ALID in order to check the availability of line-based services (FTTC/SOGEA) at that property. Well there is now no phone number in our flat - the landline number was relinquished a year or more ago.

And I have no idea what the DN/ALID is for that property nor how to find it. I am not actually at the premises, and the existing [Plusnet] broadband contract either has lapsed or is about to. So how do I find out the DN/ALID reference in order to use the BT broadband checker?

To be blunt, you're not going to get a survey visit for a broadband product, and the fact you're travelling from Scotland is not relevant to the ISP. You can and do have a complaint about the wasted appointment.

In Openreach land (assuming they didn't know how a building worked), the job would be tasked back out to someone who knew what to do rather than cancelled and left to the ISP to re-book.

I suspect an actual CityFibre employee would have been able to do this successfully, but unless Zen can arrange this you're probably going to go through this cycle a few more times.

Edited by jpm (Sun 27-Sep-26 19:34:34)

You can revert to your FTTC service, but some ISPs , once City Fibre is available (although a problematic CF installation in your case ) will always seek to use it.

Sky , Vodafone and Zen are in this category, prioritising CF over Openreach (FTTP or FTTC ) once CF is available , so getting your FTTC up and running again (if that’s your choice ) is just the case of using an ISP that doesn’t dismiss OR because CF is available, it’s a misunderstanding if you think you have to use CF FTTP because it’s available, that’s really only the case when Openreach FTTP is available, then Openreach FTTC becomes difficult to reorder , clearly OR don’t refuse anyone service just because the competition has FTTP available, that would be ludicrous, ISP are at liberty to make a choice and ignore OR and only use CF once it’s available , the three ISP quoted make that choice , but that’s not every ISP .

As far as the other matter , you could always drill the access hole yourself in advance of the visit , then the contractor would have no reason to worry about the consequences should a hidden service be hit ,( which probably would be instant dismissal) once its not the contractor on the hook for the potential damage or repair , realistically there is no reason why they wouldn’t use an access hole made by you .

TBH I can see why the contractor would be reluctant to take a chance making a hole from a service cupboard into the flat as that is not the usual way ingress into a property is made , and would be contrary to any training they received, so any difficulty resulting from doing something non standard leaves them exposed, if CF have direct labour installers they at least have some employment protection, so you can see why the contractor wants to defer to CF , if CF can’t or won’t arrange that , then reappointment seems a little pointless.

Edited by Iniltous (Sun 27-Sep-26 21:59:14)

In reply to a post by br1anstorm:

he was concerned about the risk of hitting some wiring or pipework within the wall

Do these installers not carry Cable & Pipe Locators?

They are not particularly expensive and I would have thought that they would be standard issue to anyone whose job involved drilling holes?

In reply to a post by MK65:

Do these installers not carry Cable & Pipe Locators?

The Openreach installer that did the FTTP install to my daughter's house didn't - or at least didn't use one - and drilled into a hidden heating pipe. The previous owner had removed a radiator and left the buried pipe in the wall with a cap end. The installer thought that my daughter should sort out the repair.

Use the address version of the checker at the top of the checker page. No need for the phone number or Access Line ID. Enter the postcode and select the property from the drop down list.

You were unfortunate to get a clueless contractor who clearly had no idea what to do.
Better luck next time.

In reply to a post by MK65:

In reply to a post by br1anstorm:

he was concerned about the risk of hitting some wiring or pipework within the wall

Do these installers not carry Cable & Pipe Locators?

They are not particularly expensive and I would have thought that they would be standard issue to anyone whose job involved drilling holes?

They don't really work for anything other than locating cables chased into a wall. If you have a partition wall with a plastic pipe running across it you're asking for the detector to pick that up when it's 50mm+ away from the wall surface and surrounded with insulation, and they can't do that in a reliable way.

The terms that these installers work to are also terrible, where they'd find themselves liable for the full costs of remediation and then sacked. It's not fair to paint this as an image of people not willing to use their initiative in contrast to how directly employed labour working for BT and protected by a strong trade union would have approached things.

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

You can revert to your FTTC service, but some ISPs, once City Fibre is available (although a problematic CF installation in your case ) will always seek to use it.

Sky , Vodafone and Zen are in this category, prioritising CF over Openreach (FTTP or FTTC) once CF is available , so getting your FTTC up and running again (if that’s your choice ) is just the case of using an ISP that doesn’t dismiss OR because CF is available, it’s a misunderstanding if you think you have to use CF FTTP because it’s available, that’s really only the case when Openreach FTTP is available, then Openreach FTTC becomes difficult to reorder , clearly OR don’t refuse anyone service just because the competition has FTTP available, that would be ludicrous, ISP are at liberty to make a choice and ignore OR and only use CF once it’s available , the three ISP quoted make that choice , but that’s not every ISP .

Thanks for that helpful description of the attitudes of various ISPs. With the help of the post from @Realalemadrid, I've looked at the BT broadband checker to see what the position is regarding our particular flat. This is what it says:

VDSL Range A (Clean) WBC FTTC Unavailable WBC SOGEA Available
VDSL Range B (Impacted) WBC FTTC unavailable WBC SOGEA Available

In the footnotes it says

FTTP Priority Exchange Y
WLR Withdrawal Y
SOADSL Restriction N

It also says "...ADSL ADSL+2 and SOADSL are not available due to WLR withdrawal stop sell rules.... [but] CPs should order FTTP or SOGEA...."

Others may understand these cryptic details better than me. We know that OpenReach do not offer FTTP, because the FTTP to the building is provided by CityFibre. But the BT broadband checker details appear to suggest that SOGEA (ie broadband to the cabinet and then by the old copper phone line into the flat) is available - but just for broadband, not telephone.

So.... if CityFibre cannot deliver a decent FTTP fibre connection into our flat because of the problem described in my original post, can we instead ask for a SOGEA service using the existing BT OpenReach connection? And if so how do we do this? Presumably we have to place an order via an ISP which continues to collaborate with Openreach to provide a SOGEA service. How do we find such an ISP?

Would Zen - even if they PREFER to offer full-fibre FTTP via the CityFibre network - be prepared to provide part-fibre SOGEA via the existing OpenReach connection, which would not need any new cables or drilling of any new holes in walls?

In reply to a post by jpm:

They don't really work for anything other than locating cables chased into a wall. If you have a partition wall with a plastic pipe running across it you're asking for the detector to pick that up when it's 50mm+ away from the wall surface and surrounded with insulation, and they can't do that in a reliable way.

The terms that these installers work to are also terrible, where they'd find themselves liable for the full costs of remediation and then sacked. It's not fair to paint this as an image of people not willing to use their initiative in contrast to how directly employed labour working for BT and protected by a strong trade union would have approached things.

Just a couple of comments on the more recent posts. Yes, the CityFibre/Kelly engineer who came to our flat had a Bosch cable/pipe detector, which he used. The water pipes and power cables in the service cupboard are all surface-mounted and totally visible. The wall needing to be drilled is a structural wall, not a partition stud-wall (in fact the main fibre-optic cable into the building from outside comes through that wall - so CityFibre have already drilled it!). There are no electrical sockets or switches mounted on or into the interior (bedroom/study) surface of that wall, and no central heating radiators or pipes. So - given that it is a modern apartment block, - there is no logical reason to expect any problem or obstruction to drilling.

And @jpm is right. Part of the problem seems to be the contractual basis on which installers work for Kelly Comms> CityFibre> Zen. The lines of accountability and responsibility are not clear. The engineer who came spent more time protecting his back, complaining about not being able to contact his managers, and worrying about the implications and consequences for his employment if a problem arose, than he did in checking and investigating the site and the options. He was plainly unwilling to exercise judgement, keen to avoid taking responsibility, and afraid of being blamed. I felt sorry for him, and sympathetic. But the plain fact is, neither he nor the companies employing him seem to be fit for purpose and capable of delivering the service and the result required.

So we're stuck. If CityFibre and their contractors are not competent, what other options do we have? Reinstatement of a less-efficient "part fibre" FTTC/SOGEA service, if we can find an ISP willing and able to do that?

Or do we give up on full-fibre/FTTP entirely, and start looking at a 5G mobile wifi hub such as that offered by Three, which apparently requires no wires, no drilling, no engineer visit, just "plug and play"...

As stated, if you feel this was mostly a fear of a very unlikely outcome (hitting something) then presumably you could say ‘hand me your drill, I’ll do it myself’ , thats absolves them of any responsibility should something untoward happen, if you are not prepared to do that yourself you are making the argument for the tech not doing it either.
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As far as responsibility of each party in this order chain , Zen , City Fibre and Kelly’s , Zen have no way to dictate anything , unless they offer something like a premium installation, where you would hope the extra cost at least gets you a direct labour / senior tech willing to go the extra mile , but as you have found , they quickly told you that all they can do is reappoint the job on the same terms as before , something you presumably don’t want without assurances, City Fibre have (I’d imagine) the option to allocate to direct labour rather than contractors , that’s assuming they employ installers directly , although Openreach isn’t necessarily a guide to how CF will act , Kelly’s are a contractor that Openreach also use , and it’s pretty much accepted that if contractors kick back anything Openreach direct labour pick them up as a revisit rather than wasting time with another contractor visit .

Personally I’d take issue with your description of ‘not competent’ preferring ‘risk adverse’ and if their employment rides on that , I’d be risk adverse too .

As to you choices if the assurances you want regarding FTTP prove impossible to obtain , resuming a less efficient part fibre service (that is available) or mobile broadband, presumably your part fibre service was adequate before this episode so reverting to it seems a perfectly reasonable way to proceed , there isn’t any doubt that it is available, CF FTTP availability doesn’t affect that , it’s just not necessarily available with your preferred provider , but it is available, 5G mobile may be better bet , you could try that as it doesn’t close off your SoGEA option if it proves unsatisfactory.

If Zen ( despite your chequered history them ) are your preferred provider and SoGEA is the ‘consolation prize’ you can ask them to override their CF preferences, after all if CF were not available, SoGEA from them definitely would be available.

Presumably you were not suggesting CF provide you with Openreach SoGEA , and if Zen won’t override their preference for CF at this address , there are multiple others to chose from as far as picking the most appropriate one for your needs , that really needs your own research, any recommendations on here are subjective not objective, you previously mentioned Plusnet (a previous provider of yours ?) that’s reasonable place to start, and not a recommendation to use them .

Edited by Iniltous (Tue 29-Sep-26 17:25:40)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

As stated, if you feel this was mostly a fear of a very unlikely outcome (hitting something) then presumably you could say ‘hand me your drill, I’ll do it myself’ , thats absolves them of any responsibility should something untoward happen, if you are not prepared to do that yourself you are making the argument for the tech not doing it either.
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As far as responsibility of each party in this order chain , Zen , City Fibre and Kelly’s , Zen have no way to dictate anything ....but as you have found , they quickly told you that all they can do is reappoint the job on the same terms as before , something you presumably don’t want without assurances, City Fibre have (I’d imagine) the option to allocate to direct labour rather than contractors , that’s assuming they employ installers directly , although Openreach isn’t necessarily a guide to how CF will act , Kelly’s are a contractor that Openreach also use , and it’s pretty much accepted that if contractors kick back anything Openreach direct labour pick them up as a revisit rather than wasting time with another contractor visit .

Personally I’d take issue with your description of ‘not competent’ preferring ‘risk adverse’ and if their employment rides on that , I’d be risk adverse too .

As to you choices if the assurances you want regarding FTTP prove impossible to obtain, resuming a less efficient part fibre service (that is available) or mobile broadband, presumably your part fibre service was adequate before this episode so reverting to it seems a perfectly reasonable way to proceed , there isn’t any doubt that it is available, CF FTTP availability doesn’t affect that , it’s just not necessarily available with your preferred provider , but it is available, 5G mobile may be better bet , you could try that as it doesn’t close off your SoGEA option if it proves unsatisfactory.

If Zen ( despite your chequered history them ) are your preferred provider and SoGEA is the ‘consolation prize’ you can ask them to override their CF preferences, after all if CF were not available, SoGEA from them definitely would be available.

Presumably you were not suggesting CF provide you with Openreach SoGEA , and if Zen won’t override their preference for CF at this address , there are multiple others to chose from....that really needs your own research, any recommendations on here are subjective not objective, you previously mentioned Plusnet (a previous provider of yours ?) that’s reasonable place to start, and not a recommendation to use them .

Thanks for those further thoughtful comments. Certainly for me to grab the drill and make a hole in the wall is in principle an option. But that's the equivalent of having a dog and barking yourself. I suppose I could do a DIY job of fixing my washing machine or repairing my car. But I prefer to have a qualified technical engineer do the job on the basis that he/she has professional skills and more experience than me so ought to do a reliable job. Same with fibre-broadband installation.

Maybe I was unfair to use the words "not competent" in terms of the story so far. But risk-averse, certainly.

If I could be confident that CityFibre (prompted by Zen, who are the provider with whom I placed the order and who are thus my sole point of contact) would deploy 'direct labour' or a senior tech on a second visit, then I'd consider that. At least it would deliver a second opinion, as with a medical consultant. And if that second opinion was still "No" then I would be wise to accept it. But I still await Zen's reply on whether they - and CityFibre - are prepared to escalate the matter in that way.

Depending on how that evolves, I may well ask if Zen would be prepared to deliver a part-fibre SOGEA service instead, via the existing Openreach connection. For our usage, high speed full-fibre isn't crucial. Our previous part-fibre FTTC service from Plusnet was adequate. We only looked to move to full-fibre because that is the direction everything is going and because CityFibre had installed a full-fibre connection into the building.. Plusnet (owned by BT) cannot offer full-fibre via the CityFibre network at our flat, which is why we opted for Zen who are the ISP at our home in Scotland.

If Zen will not arrange a SOGEA service using OpenReach FTTC (and why would they refuse?) then I will obviously have to research other providers who would. But the OpenReach website doesn't have a long list of ISPs who offer a SOGEA connection. ... Hence my mention of Three and a 5G mobile hub as a fall-back option.

Edited by br1anstorm (Tue 29-Sep-26 21:32:00)

Although I’d concede that you shouldn’t have to do any part of the installation yourself , your analogies don’t really work , having a dog and barking yourself , or a DIY repair on a car or washing machine, after all you would only be doing a tiny percentage of the total ‘job’ if you provided your own ingress hole , so to torture one of your analogies, you would only be popping the bonnet for the mechanic not repairing the engine , and given this seemingly is the only holdup, it’s simply expedient to consider doing it .

As FTTC is something of a sunset technology, OR not specifically showing the ISPs available on that isn’t that surprising, they do show FTTP providers https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/service-p... and unsurprisingly they have far and away the biggest choice of ISP on their networks, so the three ISP providers already mentioned are probably the only ones where City Fibre technically being available may stymy re provision of SoGEA, but even then I’d suspect out of those three ISP’s Zen is the one more likely to offer to supply service over either network if that’s your choice.

I suppose in a way , what’s more important to you , the principle, basically if you are paying for something , you should get what you have a reasonable expectation of receiving (and that doesn’t include drilling holes yourself) , or is removing an obstacle, even if that obstacle in your opinion should not really exist, worth the ‘effort’ to get what you want ?

Edited by Iniltous (Tue 29-Sep-26 22:42:36)

Thanks again @iniltous. You make some fair points about the "DIY option".

I think my priority is to get a tidy, efficient and reliable service - ideally using full-fibre FTTP. Based on my experience with them elsewhere, I hope and believe that once everything is connected Zen as the ISP would provide a reliable service.

The problem as outlined in this thread is that the CityFibre part of the deal (installing the connecting cable and the ONT) is - as offered so far - neither tidy nor efficient. And that's what I'd like to get sorted.

Maybe my car-repair or washing-machine examples weren't the best illustrations. Perhaps the CityFibre situation is more like having your house decorated. What you want is for the painter to do a proper job - prepare, prime, undercoat and paint. In effect what we were offered on 22 September was a bodge: the equivalent of a painter saying, "I don't want to strip the old wallpaper or paint because I don't know what's underneath. So I'll just slap a coat of paint on top of what's there".

Still not an exact analogy. But it's all about doing a decent job.

I think I'm going to have to await the response from Zen to my recent message querying and challenging the proposal for a second visit (without any tech survey). If they come up with a sufficiently reassuring plan and set of options which would justify our making a second three day trip down from Scotland, we might go for that. If however they or CityFibre offer no such assurances, I think we'll abandon the order and the full-fibre option and look at either the "less efficient" SoGEA connection via an OpenReach provider, or a 5G hub from Three.