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Standard User pete_thomson
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 20-Jan-13 17:54:50
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FTTC with AAISP


[link to this post]
 
Just wanting to clarify something in preparation for when FTTC goes live here.

I'm assuming the BTOR supplied modem passes the AAISP WAN address to the PPPoE device and routing of subnets just works as as it does with ADSL?

I'm currently running the Billion 7800n router setup pretty much as a modem for ADSL into a Pfsense box for the routing & firewalling of my /27 and /29 - would there be any benefits of getting a Cisco 887 to replace the BTOR modem and the Pfsense box, other than there being 1 box in my rack and possibly small power saving?

The benefits of keeping the BTOR modem and Pfsense box is that the sale of the Pfsense box wont cover the cost of the Cisco so I'd be out of pocket.

Any thoughts??

Was
Virgin Media 50Mb/s
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Now
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Edited by pete_thomson (Sun 20-Jan-13 17:56:09)

Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sun 20-Jan-13 19:58:43
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: pete_thomson] [link to this post]
 
The OpenReach modem is just that, a modem. The PPPoE connection terminates in whatever is connected to it.
Not sure what you mean "passes the AAISP WAN address to the PPPoE device" - the WAN address is only relevant on the PPPoE device, all the modem does is convert ethernet packets from one format to another, it doesn't care what IP protocols you are using, and what IPv4/v6 addresses are associated with that. From what you say it sounds like you already have PPPoE running on pFsense, and the Billion in bridge mode - in which case, you'd just swap the Billion for the OR modem and leave the rest unchanged.
edit - to remove mistake

Edited by Uilebheist (Sun 20-Jan-13 23:59:35)

Standard User pete_thomson
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 20-Jan-13 23:28:58
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
I've never used PPPoE before so I wanted to ensure I had it right in my head.
Previously I've used an ADSL modem in zero-ip bridged mode and that passed the WAN IP to the device on it's LAN interface so I'm guessing that's the same thing.

Currently the Billion is running PPPoA with the WAN IP on the ADSL side and I have a /30 between the LAN interface of the router and the WAN interface of the Pfsense box.
I didn't realise I could put the Billion in bridge mode and set Pfsense to PPPoE - might have a fiddle with that next weekend.

What about getting a VDSL router - any benefits you can see over the modem and Pfsense?

Was
Virgin Media 50Mb/s
53.34Mb/s - 1.65Mb/s - 29ms @ 24/05/2011
http://speedtest.net/result/1310626245.png

Now
Andrews & Arnold
2.91Mb/s - 0.89Mb/s - 18ms and getting worse frown
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Edited by pete_thomson (Sun 20-Jan-13 23:30:02)


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Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sun 20-Jan-13 23:48:17
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: pete_thomson] [link to this post]
 
Ah I see. Presumably the Billion has one of the two usable addresses on the /30 and pfSense has the otehr one, with static routes on the Billion for the /27 and /29 to the pfSense box.
This will have to change, as the OpenReach modem will not run PPP (well, not without unlocking it, and that depends on which of the two models you receive). But if you run PPPoE on pFsense that will work.
I think the setup you'll need is similar to this one, replacing the ADSL modem they mention with the OpenReach VDSL modem, and of course ignore any mention of NAT.

edit - about getting a VDSL router, it may be better asking this question in the "Fibre Broadband" section of the forum, as there will be somebody who has tried it.

edit2 - on second thought, maybe posting in the Fibre Broadband section isn't such a good idea. You'll get endless discussion on points of extreme pedantry, as seen on some posts in this thread.

Edited by Uilebheist (Mon 21-Jan-13 00:50:50)

Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sun 20-Jan-13 23:54:51
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: pete_thomson] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by pete_thomson:
I'm assuming the BTOR supplied modem passes the AAISP WAN address to the PPPoE device and routing of subnets just works as as it does with ADSL?

PPPoE doesn't use an IP address at all - it uses a non IP level 2 Ethernet protocol to pass the PPP traffic over an Ethernet link. The device terminating the PPPoE gets the client IP address allocated by the ISP.


This post comes to you over a connection using pfSense 2.0.2 and a BT Huawei HG612 modem, though I'm using Zen, not AAISP. pfSense is terminating the PPPoE.

The only snag with this setup is that pfSense doesn't currently support RFC 4638, so you're limited to a WAN MTU of 1492 bytes. I'm looking at adding the necessary support and have scoped out the work to be done, but have no timescale for it. Unfortunately, it seems likely to need two patches - one to the mpd PPP daemon and one to the FreeBSD kernel (as the majority of the work for PPPoE is done using the netgraph system in the kernel).


I don't understand why another poster mentions ATM. Unlike the BT Wholesale 20CN and 21CN ADSL systems, the BT FTTx system is based entirely around Ethernet, with no legacy protocols such as ATM involved.

Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Sun 20-Jan-13 23:56:46
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
I don't understand why another poster mentions ATM.

Slip of the fingers. Anyway, it's irrelevant. The point was that the OR modem doesn't do PPP(oE)
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 20-Jan-13 23:59:45
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
Unless you unlock it, then it can.


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Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:01:14
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I did say "the OpenReach modem will not run PPP (well, not without unlocking it,"
However I seem to remember one of the two models is rather harder to unlock than the other one, and we don't know which one the OP will receive.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:02:26
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
It's not a modem, it's configured as a bridge.


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Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:06:49
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Surely if we have to have this level of pedantry, it is a VDSL modem plus a Ethernet bridge?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:08:56
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
The output of a modem is serial, the output of this device is ethernet.


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Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:20:07
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Actually, as modem stands for modulator-demodulator, it applies to conversion to/from discrete multitone modulation (DMT, as used in ADSL, VDSL, etc) just as well as it applies to a modem sitting between a serial line and a telephone line, or in fact anything else which can be used'to carry digital signals over an analogue line.
So the use of modem is correct, even though it isn't an old 110 baud thing sitting next to a teletype.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:28:23
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
It's a Home Gateway - that's what the HG in HG612 stands for.


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Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:30:18
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
That doesn't stop it containing a modem... in fact, if it didn't it would not work.
And what defines a modem is not serial or otherwise, but the conversion between analogue and digital signals.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:33:50
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
I can't see any reason to think of the device as a modem, it's like thinking of a car as an air filter.


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Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 00:34:52
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
It's more like thinking of a car as containing an engine.
You are arguing that it cannot because it is a car.
Standard User pete_thomson
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 21-Jan-13 08:06:00
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
Thanks.

I had a play and I managed (eventually) to get the Billion in bridge mode and the WAN i/f on Pfsense setup as PPPoE late last night. I setup the /30 on the LAN side and as a VIP on Pfsense to be able to still access the Billion for SNMP purposes (I run MRTG to log various data) but I was unable to get it working.

It wasn't until I reverted everything back that I realised the routes back the to /27 and /29 were missing so that was the probable cause.

I think I'll change it back over tonight and run it for a while - I think the chances are I'll just stick with what I have. I've been running Pfsense for a number of years and it's never let me down and I have a dedicated hardware box for it now so I might as well stick with it.

Was
Virgin Media 50Mb/s
53.34Mb/s - 1.65Mb/s - 29ms @ 24/05/2011
http://speedtest.net/result/1310626245.png

Now
Andrews & Arnold
2.91Mb/s - 0.89Mb/s - 18ms and getting worse frown
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2175310790.png
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Mon 21-Jan-13 09:41:25
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: pete_thomson] [link to this post]
 
You are welcome, and any questions somebody here will know the answer.
I guess your Billion router will still need a route back to the IP address you run MRTG from, if that was the problem.
BTW, you won't be able to collect the same type of stats from the OpenReach modem unless you unlock it.
Standard User Magsy
(committed) Mon 21-Jan-13 11:45:33
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by pete_thomson:
This post comes to you over a connection using pfSense 2.0.2 and a BT Huawei HG612 modem, though I'm using Zen, not AAISP. pfSense is terminating the PPPoE.

The only snag with this setup is that pfSense doesn't currently support RFC 4638, so you're limited to a WAN MTU of 1492 bytes. I'm looking at adding the necessary support and have scoped out the work to be done, but have no timescale for it. Unfortunately, it seems likely to need two patches - one to the mpd PPP daemon and one to the FreeBSD kernel (as the majority of the work for PPPoE is done using the netgraph system in the kernel).


Sorry to hijack a little but do you have the reconnection bug, where if the HG612 power cycles, pfsense doesn't connect back up automatically?
Standard User pete_thomson
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 21-Jan-13 11:45:34
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Uilebheist:
You are welcome, and any questions somebody here will know the answer.
I guess your Billion router will still need a route back to the IP address you run MRTG from, if that was the problem.
BTW, you won't be able to collect the same type of stats from the OpenReach modem unless you unlock it.


Yeah - When I switched from PPPoA to PPPoE to dropped the 2 routes from the config so I'm guessing that what was wrong.

I was aware that you could unlock the OR Modem but that will have to be physically a second connection - I have 2 spare NICs on my Pfsense box so I might just activate one of those and run a cable back to the modem.

Was
Virgin Media 50Mb/s
53.34Mb/s - 1.65Mb/s - 29ms @ 24/05/2011
http://speedtest.net/result/1310626245.png

Now
Andrews & Arnold
2.91Mb/s - 0.89Mb/s - 18ms and getting worse frown
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2175310790.png
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Mon 21-Jan-13 13:24:41
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Magsy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Magsy:
Sorry to hijack a little but do you have the reconnection bug, where if the HG612 power cycles, pfsense doesn't connect back up automatically?

I just pulled the power from my HG612 and pfSense recovered very quickly when power was restored (see my thinkbroadband quality monitor at around 1pm - yesterday's outage at around 3.30pm was when I was moving cables around and, again, pfSense recovered). If you're having problems with failure to recover, I suggest upgrading to pfSense 2.0.2 if you haven't done so already - this upgrades you to the latest mpd 5.6 and incorporates some security and bug fixes.

Make sure that the 'Dial on demand' option is not set on the PPPoE connection - you want pfSense to connect full time, not wait for outgoing traffic. If you're still having problems, check the options set on the WAN gateway (System -> Routing, Gateways tab) - though I'm almost certain that testing whether a PPPoE interface is live is done via periodic LCP Echo Requests.

Standard User Magsy
(committed) Mon 21-Jan-13 15:40:17
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, you didn't need to do that, appreciated smile

My FTTC install is Friday but I've been reading about the problem that's all; there is a 11 page thread on the pfsense forum. I've used pfsense for many years and want to carry on but I've had dhcp based reconnecting issues before and they really ruin the experience.

Good to know it should be fine, my back out plan was to hack the modem, terminate the PPPoE there and route out to pfsense as I have a /29 + 1 so can afford the addresses.
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Mon 21-Jan-13 17:35:33
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Magsy] [link to this post]
 
I should explain that my network topology is a little unusual - like many pfSense users, I use VLANs and VLAN capable switches rather than a lot of physical network interfaces in the pfSense box. Accordingly, pulling the plug on the HG612 will not make the pfSense box lose any Ethernet connections, which may help pfSense to recover from a downed PPPoE bridge (though I doubt it makes any difference).


I've got two 24 port level 2 managed gigabit switches - one in the house and one in an air conditioned server room in our converted garage. There's four OM3 multimode fibres between the two switches, operating as two 1000Base-SX gigabit links grouped into a single logical link using LACP for load sharing and resiliency. Multiple VLANs operate over the fibre link, all of which are tagged.

The OM3 fibre should be good for two 10 gigabit Ethernet links in the future - I know some sites eschew multimode fibre and have a 'single mode only' policy, but multimode allows me to use cheaper optics than single mode fibre. I'd have to use 1000Base-LX optics if the fibre was single mode, though these now cost very little extra. 10GBase-SR optics are significantly cheaper than 10 gigabit single mode optics, however.


The pfSense box is in the rack in the garage - it's a small 1U Dell dual core box. All the network interfaces are presented to it using tagged VLANs, including a dedicated VLAN for the HG612. There is a VLAN bug in the pfSense GUI, in that you can't assign a PPPoE connection to a VLAN, but you can set a VLAN as your WAN interface and convert that WAN connection to PPPoE.

The VLAN comes over the fibre link with its tags intact. The HG612 is connected to a port on the house switch connected to the PPPoE VLAN only, operating without tags. As such, power cycling the HG612 drops the link to the switch, but doesn't drop the parent interface of the PPPoE connection on the pfSense box.


Like you, my backup plan would be to terminate the PPPoE external to pfSense - I have a /28 (Zen use one of the addresses in the block for the gateway), so losing one address is OK. I wanted to terminate the PPPoE on the pfSense box, not least to make eventual IPv6 deployment easier. pfSense 2.1 will support IPv6, and I hope Zen will support IPv6 soon. If you're with AAISP, you already have IPv6 available.

Standard User pete_thomson
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 21-Jan-13 22:23:51
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: pete_thomson] [link to this post]
 
Well adding the routes worked, but getting SNMP to listen on the LAN interface whilst in Bridge mode doesn't appear to work. The odd thing is that in routed mode previously I have to enable WAN access to be able to read SNMP from the LAN interface. In bridge mode I simply can't enable this option. Maybe I need a second cable into the router??

I need to reboot the firewall to enable an extra NIC so I'll have a try again tomorrow.

Was
Virgin Media 50Mb/s
53.34Mb/s - 1.65Mb/s - 29ms @ 24/05/2011
http://speedtest.net/result/1310626245.png

Now
Andrews & Arnold
2.91Mb/s - 0.89Mb/s - 18ms and getting worse frown
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2175310790.png
Standard User Magsy
(committed) Tue 22-Jan-13 09:24:31
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
And I get mocked for having run multiple drops of CAT 5 all over my house...that's a lot of kit. I have fibre interfaces but in a 2 bed semi I'm struggling to find a need tongue

I think the NIC/link dropping is the issue, when the physical interface goes down it doesn't recycle the PPPoE connection properly, however, like you I'm VLAN'ing my internet facing links and trunking back to the parent switch where the servers are. I should be fine then..
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Tue 22-Jan-13 09:31:38
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: pete_thomson] [link to this post]
 
That sounds like the Billion decides what is LAN and what is WAN by IP address and only the /30 looks like LAN to it, so your routed /27 is WAN as far as the Billion is concerned.
If that's the case, not sure what you can do about that unless you add a NAT rule for just the SMNP requests so they appear to be from the Billion's idea of LAN. That would be a hack though, rather than a proper solution.
The proper solution would depend on hos the Billion makes this decision, and what control you have on how to change that, but I don't have enough information on this. Perhaps another user who has the same router may know.
Maybe once you've tested that terminating PPPoE on the firewall works, you can put everything back as it was and wait for the FTTC install. You know you'll have to do something different for MRTG anyway and that may depend on which of the two models you get from OpenReach.
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Tue 22-Jan-13 09:36:20
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Magsy] [link to this post]
 
And what exactly is the problem with having multiple drops of CAT5 all over the house?
I had the floor in the hall replaced about 12 years ago, and I made sure there were CAT5 cables under the new floor, going from the office to all the other rooms. You never know when you need them, and wireless is not a good option with thick stone walls - I get better signal from the garden than from the living room, possibly because it's just one wall and it has windows, while it's at least two walls from the office to the living room (and certainly wireless wasn't a good option when I installed the cables).
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 24-Jan-13 12:19:39
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
I have cat5e and cat6 cables going across my hallway, couldnt care less what visitors think smile its my place.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User stuorguk
(member) Thu 24-Jan-13 12:51:43
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: Uilebheist] [link to this post]
 
I did the same, when our lounge floor was replaced. I did a proper job by putting in RJ45 sockets in the walls, and Cat 5 cables behind the plasterboard. 16 port switch boxed off next to master phone socket, with patch leads.

Thought a quad socket behind the TV would suffice. No - need 5 now.

Thought 2 x quad socket next to my desk would be loads. It was, I have now turned my spare room into an office, and no longer have the desk there.

Twin socket in spare room (office) insufficient.

Twin socket behind bedroom TV. Now need 3.

Cant win.
Standard User Uilebheist
(legend) Thu 24-Jan-13 18:29:06
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Re: FTTC with AAISP


[re: stuorguk] [link to this post]
 
Funnily enough... I have the same problem. Recently had to run some extra cat6 cables from the office (where the router is) to the living room, and I'm glad I had some space left in the cable ducts under the floors...
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