Do you know, or are you suggesting that AA have not exhausted those channels, just as all previous ISPs will have done? Have you any evidence to that effect when the case history is clearly that Openreach are avoiding their responsibilities?

Have you any suggestions for what a small (or any) ISP should do when those channels fail? ISP's whose turnover is probably less than BT Group is willing to spend (out of petty cash) on lawyers if things went legal?

Why are you continuing to defend the clearly indefensible? A customer, (AA), is fully entitled to say anything they like to a stubborn, recalcitrant and obligation-failing supplier when all normal and polite channels have failed.

The consumer, (professor973), does however have other options open. He/she is not tied by any contract with Openreach or in this case even with any part of BT. CEOs of Openreach, BT Wholesale, and Group are legitimate channels, as is his MP.

You are being ... words fail me.

TWIFOPS

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 25-Feb-17 21:08:39)

Lol

Sorry, but where have I defended Openreach here?

All I have pointed out is that I am very surprised at the comments from a A&A member of staff to one of their suppliers. It doesn't matter that it is Openreach, it's the fact that I would expect to see a level of professional courtesy extended between both sides not matter how frustrating things are in the situation in hand.

There are many unanswered questions here. It's easy for people to sit behind a PC screen and make fruitless allegations (which often happens on here), but the reality is there is not a complete picture here from all sides. It may be very simple and Openreach are completely in the wrong, or it may be quite complex (I am not talking about the actual fault here). Without seeing the whole picture, people are just widely slinging allegations and you have actual engineers providing their input who are being shot down for no reason.

Openreach has a very comprehensive complaint's process that an ISP can go through, but you have to follow the steps (I only wanted to know if these had been followed and to what stage). For a fibre issue, this ultimately ends up with the Head of Fibre. If the resolution is not satisfactory then, you can escalate to DSO who have powers to take action outside of the normal processes (often you read on here that Openreach cannot do this, which is far from true). Either way though, a complaint that goes through the processes will reach the top of Openreach and in the unlikely event no resolution is reached then, you can go down the ADR route.

Your allegations are fruitless and reckless, to say the least.

Which just shows you are determined to plough on in apparently complete ignorance of the easily available history of this problem since it was first posted about literally years ago. You seem to have a closed mind approach resulting from a couple of posts containing justified remarks by AA, whatever your personal opinion of that language and how the matter should be handled by them.

Oddly, it looks as though there is a slight possibility that Openreach are actually going to deal appropriately with the fault, which is something at least two other ISOs have failed to achieve. Though I am not convinced a dig is going to happen, and I expect the OP has the same doubt.

That rather makes it look as though what you have seen posted is the only language Openreach understand.

As you claim to know these steps and procedures, it might help if you listed them, so the OP can tell you which he is aware of having been followed by any one of the at least four ISPs he has been with while it continued. You would, amazingly, possibly help the OP in asking his ISP if certain ones of them have been tried. Instead of putting yourself forward as a supreme judge of how to get things sorted. With no facts other than what has been copied into this thread to go on.

It is also abundantly clear that individual engineers are not being "shot down". They can only report back on whatever they have been tasked to do, however inappropriate those instructions are. I am quite sure the OP is not criticising them personally.

As for some of the detail of your post:-

1) It is patently clear this is not a fibre fault, so your suggested route there is fatuous.

2) You seem to suggest that the best ISP known about on these forums is ignorant of official channels. But being a relative minnow, as I pointed out previously, they are restricted to the actions specified in their contracts with BT Wholesale and Openreach. Those parts of BT Group have clearly allowed the line problem to persist for years, despite being known to have multiple instances of diagnostic evidence of it. Can you explain how multiple disconnections per day at times are not service affecting?

3) Would you care to explain which ISP's ADR provider the OP should approach? If we assume AAISP, not one of the earlier ones, how he does that without either the eight week wait after they tell him they aren't going to bother, which they haven't done. Quite the opposite in fact, as publicly stated by their representative in this thread. Nor obviously is the OP likely to be receiving a deadlock letter, for the same reason.

4) Given that the ADR system is for resolution of disputes between an end user and their Communications Provider, and the OP has no dispute whatsoever over this matter with any of the ISPs who have tried to resolve it, why have you made such an irrelevant suggestion to be used as a final resort?

I'm not sure what your problem is with me here.

I merely stated a couple of times I was very surprised at the language used by a member of A&A support staff. I am not the only one in this regard...

I asked some very reasonable questions that are unanswered, namely on compensation and how far this was escalated within Openreach. The OP's comment yesterday showed that it had been escalated to DSO (who would have been the best team to resolve this) and it looks like progress is being made. I strongly suspect that previous ISPs never even took this to that level, even though it would have been an option for them.

As for the engineers, I am referring to the ones on this forum.

As most of us are only aware of one declared Openreach engineer on these forums these days, your reference to any other engineers was once again spurious. Only Openreach engineers on a job attending to the fault are relevant to the resolution of the fault.

My problem with you here is that on the basis of two clearly exasperated extracts from the conversation of an AAISP staff member with Openreach you have slammed him and the company as unprofessional. Something which, frankly, is a ludicrous assertion for you to make.

You also have no idea whatsoever of what has gone before, you have clearly no knowledge (or didn't earlier in this thread) of the history of the extent to which Openreach have repeatedly screwed up ISPs and the end user about this line.

You then continued into professional jobsworth style argument about official procedures, and my previous reply to you I believe convincingly shot down the bulk of what you were spouting.

Do these extensive procedures exist? If so, how come any ISP ever fails to get a problem line fixed? How come AAISP is the outstanding ISP so far as anyone knows at getting Openreach to deal with problems?

You suspect ...! Quite. A load of supposition, drivel, and unjustified criticism with little or no evidence to support it throughout the thread. Just because you took offence at the intemperate wording of two communications.

"I suppose", nay, am dead sure, that if you were doing that staff member's job you would have folded under Openreach's stone-walling attitude long ago.

Only you would never get past an interview there.

Why is it, that there is always some know-all - know [censored] all that has to get on his snotty high horse here and ridicule everyone and everything. The faults, investigations, results, planned digs, cancellations, incompetent engineers and a VERY polite AA are all documented here. Most of which were met with total ignorance from Openreach and a couple here. ALL channels were exhausted and met with broken promises. There is evidence of escalation through the relevant channels, all to no avail. HLE into DSO and only in the last week their planning department. The ignorance of Openreach has been a big battle. We are talking nearly TWO years with a known underground fault, with Openreach hiding behind the ridiculousness PAT fault parameters to dodge and cancel planned work. Permission to dig went in in August 2015 for the original A55, then just continually pushed further and further into the long grass, with someone eventually taking it off the system. For MONTHS, Openreach REFUSED to involve HLE, OR to correctly categorize the fault to one that is service effecting. Being polite and just accepting the behavior of openreach got AA nowhere, just like the three other ISPs that tried. OR continually tried to force the ticket closed, if refused to keep wasting time with a never ending stream of engineers. An example here, so suggest you butt out and stop aggravating users with what is not your problem or OP. Fortunately, you are not in a position to "expect" anything in this case. https://postimg.org/image/jzjrwlzy9/

Edited by professor973 (Sun 26-Feb-17 12:01:48)

Oi Mr. Knowall, where are instances of inappropriate language? - I certainly don't think "Do you think it funny to continually break promises?" or "Do your job and escalate this NOW" after being treated badly can be categorizes as bad language - just demanding what should not need demanding when a ticket goes in.