Continuous packet loss shown on BQM

I have been getting packet loss reported on BQM for 2 months.
My Broadband Ping

I am having difficulty finding out what the problem might be. I have been working with Zen who have no idea. Line has been checked out by BTOR and passed with flying colours.
Outgoing traceroute from my desktop shows no packet loss.

A test id from Zen (using a different ip address) shows no problem. Zen have said that it is a problem with my ip, and that it is my responsibility to fix it, because I own that ip

Can anyone suggest where to go next?

You don't own the IP address, whoever said that is reading from a bluffers guide.

If outbound tracert (which may not show everything) is clean, and you have the extent of packet loss the graph shows the suggestion is that your modem or router is messing things up e.g. DoS protection can drop packages causing this sort of effect. QoS controls can also cause issues, as this may lead to buffering packets sometimes.

Was the test ID across the same identical hardware, and Zen backhaul network?

Have you unplugged everything except your router from the xDSL connection for a couple of hours to see if that changes the BQM?

How complex is your LAN, brief description may help.

Ian

If you "own" the IP then where did you get it from? If Zen are providing the connection then they would be providing the IP even if it is a static. I assume the BQM is actually pointing at the router on your Zen connection?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You don't own the IP address, whoever said that is reading from a bluffers guide.

If outbound tracert (which may not show everything) is clean, and you have the extent of packet loss the graph shows the suggestion is that your modem or router is messing things up e.g. DoS protection can drop packages causing this sort of effect. QoS controls can also cause issues, as this may lead to buffering packets sometimes.

Was the test ID across the same identical hardware, and Zen backhaul network?

This was from one of the faults team

The problem has occurred when everything but the router is disconnected using two of the Zen routers - Fritzbox 3490 - in the test socket

The test id was the identical setup

In reply to a post by ian007jen:

Have you unplugged everything except your router from the xDSL connection for a couple of hours to see if that changes the BQM?

How complex is your LAN, brief description may help.

Ian

Yes, everything but the router in the test socket overnight, so the network probably isn't a factor.

The problem isn't apparent on ipv6

In reply to a post by ian72:

If you "own" the IP then where did you get it from? If Zen are providing the connection then they would be providing the IP even if it is a static. I assume the BQM is actually pointing at the router on your Zen connection?

I agree, but Zen has insisted that the ip address is mine and that any problems associated with that address is mine to sort out

Recommend looking at the routing involved (with their multiple backhaul networks it may or may not be obvious if there are differences).

IPv6 is not guaranteed to have the same router as IPv4

You didn't answer the question. Is this an IP address provided by Zen for your Internet connection? If it is then either they are talking complete rubbish or you have misunderstood what they said.

In reply to a post by ian72:

You didn't answer the question. Is this an IP address provided by Zen for your Internet connection? If it is then either they are talking complete rubbish or you have misunderstood what they said.

+1
Also not sure if the OP has just the 1 Static IP or a block of them, if they have more than one, maybe they could try another IP in that block.

My younger brother is with Zen and has a block of 8 Static IP's.

Paul

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Recommend looking at the routing involved (with their multiple backhaul networks it may or may not be obvious if there are differences).

IPv6 is not guaranteed to have the same router as IPv4

Unfortunately they say that there is no problem in their network and have closed the problem

Just the one ip. Having had a clear connection with their test ip, I asked for an alternative address. They said that they don't do that, and that my ip is mine alone. They did suggest that I cough up £30 for a block of 5

It is Zen's IP that they have statically assigned to you. If there is a problem with routing to the IP then it is their problem to solve - if changing to another of their IPs fixed the issue then it is definitely their problem to resolve. It appears they are giving you the runaround.

They say that they see no problem, and that they are not prepared to accept the BQM graph as evidence

That is different to them saying it is because it is your IP. They have proven though that changing the IP fixes it so presumably it is routing somewhere in their network and the new IP is routed via a different switch fabric. It is possible it is an overloaded switch somewhere in their network that is setting the BQM traffic as lower priority - nothing significantly wrong with that if it is treating other important traffic correctly. In the real world you may see absolutely no impact from this and therefore from Zen's perspective they see nothing service impacting to fix.

If you could reproduce an issue with a "real world" use rather than just monitoring then it may be a different story.

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

Just the one ip. Having had a clear connection with their test ip, I asked for an alternative address. They said that they don't do that, and that my ip is mine alone. They did suggest that I cough up £30 for a block of 5

Ouch.

Not too sure if anyone has asked this, but your BQM IP Address used.
Is it an IPv4 or IPv6 Address?

TBB might auto detect the IPv6 address, In my BQM I am using a domain address that points to an IPv4 Address over my own DDNS Server due to BT refuse to give me a Static IP.

Have you also tried a different Modem / Router, I know I had issues with routers on my connection which had loads of Packet Loss on my FritzBox which I am not seeing at all on my new Linksys WRT 3200 ACM.

Paul

In reply to a post by ian72:

It is Zen's IP that they have statically assigned to you. If there is a problem with routing to the IP then it is their problem to solve - if changing to another of their IPs fixed the issue then it is definitely their problem to resolve. It appears they are giving you the runaround.

Agreed, when ever I have spoken to Zen Support I have always had a good experience with them, seems the OP was unlucky and ended up with an idiot that had no clue.

While the user is responsible to what they use the IP for, if there is any issues then the ISP should all possible tests to resolve the issue and if changing the IP resolves the issue then great.
If not than change it back to the old one and look into other possible reasons what could be causing it.

If the supplied IP is assigned to a domain address then Zen could give out an additional IP temporally which they do tests.

TBH, I would try another Modem / Router, it might be that or just a routing issue, I know Zen has messed up with my brothers connection, when he was here in East London they had his connection routed up north and then back down to London, so his latency isn't that good

So Zen can and do mess up now and then as do other ISP's.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Ouch.

Not too sure if anyone has asked this, but your BQM IP Address used.
Is it an IPv4 or IPv6 Address?

TBB might auto detect the IPv6 address, In my BQM I am using a domain address that points to an IPv4 Address over my own DDNS Server due to BT refuse to give me a Static IP.

The address is an ipv4 address. I also have a monitor on my ipv6 address - which shows no problems

Have you also tried a different Modem / Router, I know I had issues with routers on my connection which had loads of Packet Loss on my FritzBox which I am not seeing at all on my new Linksys WRT 3200 ACM.

The FritzBox cannot cope with more than 1 or 2 monitoring sessions, at a time. According to AVM:

A mechanism in the FRITZ!Box protects against a threat of a so-called "denial of service (DoS) attack" that only allows a defined number of ICMP packets (e.g. "pings") to be replied within a certain time frame and discards the others

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

While the user is responsible to what they use the IP for, if there is any issues then the ISP should all possible tests to resolve the issue and if changing the IP resolves the issue then great.
If not than change it back to the old one and look into other possible reasons what could be causing it.

I used a test id from Zen to check, and suddenly there was no packet loss. That was when I asked for a replacement ip which was turned down

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

The address is an ipv4 address. I also have a monitor on my ipv6 address - which shows no problems
...
The FritzBox cannot cope with more than 1 or 2 monitoring sessions, at a time. According to AVM:

A mechanism in the FRITZ!Box protects against a threat of a so-called "denial of service (DoS) attack" that only allows a defined number of ICMP packets (e.g. "pings") to be replied within a certain time frame and discards the others

As you are using a Fritz router that probably has the same defence. What happens to your IPv4 BQM if you disable the IPv6 one?

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 25-Nov-17 10:52:26)

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

They did suggest that I cough up £30 for a block of 5

Is that a one-off cost? If so, probably the easiest way to solve it.

A replacement IP may or may not resolve the issue...it is the difference that is underlying when you use the different log in, i.e. routed over different backhaul infrastructure most likely

Some providers do split their traffic based on IP blocks and route it differently, so again you would need to look at the differences.

Blindly asking an ISP for a new static IP address will almost always generate the response you got, but questioning why the routing is different for the different logins should trigger more of the thought processes

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As you are using a Fritz router that probably has the same defence. What happens to your IPv4 BQM if you disable the IPv6 one?

Yes, I am sure it has the same defence, but I have tried with no ipv6 enabled, and the ipv4 doesn't change

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Ouch.

Not too sure if anyone has asked this, but your BQM IP Address used.
Is it an IPv4 or IPv6 Address?

TBB might auto detect the IPv6 address, In my BQM I am using a domain address that points to an IPv4 Address over my own DDNS Server due to BT refuse to give me a Static IP.

The address is an ipv4 address. I also have a monitor on my ipv6 address - which shows no problems

That is strange.
They are not using CGNAT on that static IP are they? they are proably not, I know I had to op out of it with BT due to things were breaking etc.

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Have you also tried a different Modem / Router, I know I had issues with routers on my connection which had loads of Packet Loss on my FritzBox which I am not seeing at all on my new Linksys WRT 3200 ACM.

The FritzBox cannot cope with more than 1 or 2 monitoring sessions, at a time. According to AVM:

A mechanism in the FRITZ!Box protects against a threat of a so-called "denial of service (DoS) attack" that only allows a defined number of ICMP packets (e.g. "pings") to be replied within a certain time frame and discards the others

You haven't answered my question, have you tried another Modem / Router ?
My younger brother uses a FRITZ 3390 I also used the same when I had ADSL2+, I then got a Fritz 4040 which is suppose to have a 1Gbit throughput, sadly that got Packet Errors every X Hours after about 10 days, where as my Linksys WRT 3200 ACM works fine.

Don't get me wrong I still love the Fritz boxes I have and the issue with the packet loss I was receiving might of just been that same protection you mention due to everything else was fine.

Paul

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

While the user is responsible to what they use the IP for, if there is any issues then the ISP should all possible tests to resolve the issue and if changing the IP resolves the issue then great.
If not than change it back to the old one and look into other possible reasons what could be causing it.

I used a test id from Zen to check, and suddenly there was no packet loss. That was when I asked for a replacement ip which was turned down

Not sure what a Test ID is, so I cannot answer that one.

The way I see it, if you are having issue with a service that you are paying for they have to resolve the issue.

What's it say in the T&C?

Paul

We don't in fact know that the OP is actually suffering from packet loss. Only that his router may be failing to respond to some (lots of) IPv4 ICMP pings.

I'm not sure how we could check for real data loss. DSLAM-side retranmission stats perhaps?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

We don't in fact know that the OP is actually suffering from packet loss. Only that his router may be failing to respond to some (lots of) IPv4 ICMP pings.

I'm not sure how we could check for real data loss. DSLAM-side retranmission stats perhaps?

I know, I was just saying if there "was" an issue then the ISP "should" look into it.

As for the router, that's a possibility, I know my Fritz 4040 suffered with packet loss when using the BQM, even though the connection was fine.
That was why I asked the OP if they had tried another router.

Paul

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As you are using a Fritz router that probably has the same defence. What happens to your IPv4 BQM if you disable the IPv6 one?

Yes, I am sure it has the same defence, but I have tried with no ipv6 enabled, and the ipv4 doesn't change

If you capture the traffic on the internet interface and analyze the results in Wireshark, you should be able to see the source of the pings.

http://fritz.box/html/capture.html

Simon.

Zen is NOT using CGNAT

The most likely explanation if poster is not seeing this variation when they do a ping string from a PC, is the DoS protection on the Fritzbox When using a test connection is may not have been up long enough for the DoS protection to kick in.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The most likely explanation if poster is not seeing this variation when they do a ping string from a PC, is the DoS protection on the Fritzbox When using a test connection is may not have been up long enough for the DoS protection to kick in.

The OP has more than one BQM pinging his usual IPv4 address. Perhaps the other was set up by Zen, or a F8Lure one he has forgotten about or a previous user of his IP. A Wireshark capture will confirm.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Zen is NOT using CGNAT

Ok, I wasn't too sure.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The most likely explanation if poster is not seeing this variation when they do a ping string from a PC, is the DoS protection on the Fritzbox When using a test connection is may not have been up long enough for the DoS protection to kick in.

That might explain the odd issue I had after 10 days where I would see packet loss ever X hours.

Its a shame the FRITZ!Box doesn't let the user add an IP / domain or a trusted list to bypass that feature.

Paul