BQM explanation

Hello
Hope everyone is managing to keep safe and well.
Issues with a BT all copper line. The SNR ranging was stuck but has been reset apparently. It has improved but the line is still poor. We get consistent 'no internet' lasting between say 10 seconds to a few minutes at a time - its not the wifi, as it happens the same on the wired connection.

I have done as much research as I can to try and educate myself on what my CQm graph means but I'm a bit lost and could use some kind help please.

We are a family of 4 all regularly using teams/zoom during the day and NF in eve.

Q - does this graph represent a normal busy ADSL copper line on a busy BT exchange? Or does it show anything I can point to to say my line is not acceptable? This general type of pattern seems to represent my line consistently over a time period.

Q - IF this is not an abnormal graph, would going to fibre (to the cabinet) improve the reliability.

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

Thanks in advance.

To me that graph looks like you are just overloading the connection, but that wouldn't explain disconnections. It should just go slow, not fall over.

Are you able to get to line stats in the Hub? IIRC they will be somewhere in the Troubleshooting pages.

The fact that your SNRM was reset, (actually the DLM - Dynamic Line Management of which the SNR is one parameter), suggests that disconnections had forced it up in the first place.

DLM on ADSLx does that in order to slow the line down, as the slower the line runs the fewer the transmission errors. It's a balancing act between speed and stability it does automatically.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 19-May-20 21:14:58)

Looks like a slow DSL line which is being heavly used to me, a FTTC connection would help

Thanks for the replies. Its a BT line but SP is not BT, the line stats in the Zyxel tell me there are actually zero drops so from what you guys tell me I have a poor line and realistically need to have FTTC.
Really appreciate it, thanks

Seems like the OP "might" be located on the outer boundaries served by their exchange.

Also a FTTC connection "might" not be a better for them due to them being 1km from their cabinet.

Paul

We could do with seeing the line stats from the ZyXel, and also an uploaded screenshot of the results from this estimator. (Wipe out the line above the table that gives your number or address).

Then we can can give informed advice.

Hi
I think this below is the line stats?

============================================================================
ADSL Training Status: Showtime
Mode: ADSL2+ Annex A
Traffic Type: ATM Mode
Link Uptime: 2 days: 5 hours: 11 minutes
======================================================================
ADSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 0.784 Mbps 6.880 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 0.776 Mbps 6.848 Mbps
Trellis Coding: ON ON
SNR Margin: 4.3 dB 6.4 dB
Actual Delay: 1 ms 0 ms
Transmit Power: 12.1 dBm 20.3 dBm
Receive Power: 4.7 dBm 4.7 dBm
Actual INP: 0.0 symbols 0.0 symbols
Total Attenuation: 0.0 dB 0.0 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate: 1.036 Mbps 7.036 Mbps
======================================================================

ADSL Counters

Downstream Upstream
Since Link time = 11 min 9 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 9566 1001
ES: 3137 816
SES: 68 5
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 13 min 2 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 12 2
ES: 12 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 4 2
ES: 4 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 16 hours 13 min 2 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 403 235
ES: 336 232
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 744 353
ES: 512 351
SES: 3 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Total time = 1 days 16 hours 13 min 2 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 19345 1508
ES: 5026 1317
SES: 190 8
UAS: 206 92
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 87 0
======================================================================

AND I think this is the BT data you told me to get? Along the way I learned about UPRNs! Cheers every day is a school day.

UPRN XXXXXXXX on Exchange CROWTHORNE is served by Cabinet 19
Featured Products Downstream Line Rate(Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Handback
Threshold(Mbps) WBC FTTC Availability Date WBC SOGEA Availability Date
High Low High Low
VDSL Range A (Clean) 27.1 16.5 5 2.9 14.2 Available Available
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 26.5 14.8 5 2.7 11.3 Available Available
Featured Products Downstream Line Rate(Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Range (Mbps) Availability Date FTTP Install Process
WBC FTTP Up to 1000 Up to 220 -- Available KCI2 Assure
ADSL Products Downstream Line Rate (Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Range(Mbps) Availability Date
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 3.5 -- 2 to 6 Available
WBC ADSL2+ Annex M Up to 3.5 Up to 0.5 2 to 6 Available
ADSL Max Up to 2.5 -- 1.5 to 5 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Other Offerings Availability Date
VDSL Multicast Available
ADSL Multicast Available

_______________

Lastly, they told me the SNR ranging was stuck on 3dB, apparently it was fixed Friday PM, this is what my graph looked like for that day, if it helps https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

To my ignorant eye, this seems to confirm that my line is not brilliant but really I am just asking too much from it?
I'm also interested in what in there can tell you if FTTC would or would not help? I think I might be a bit over 800m not 1km from cabinet

Thanks Roberto, rowter, Paul

WBC FTTP Up to 1000 Up to 220 -- Available KCI2 Assure

Full fibre is available, orders start again on 1st June and there is a bit staged process to install this.

Otherwise VDSL2 is available with higher speeds than your adsl2+ in range 14 to 27 Mbps

Note that the FTTP MrSaffron points to is by far the best option. There will be a number of speeds to choose from on the BT and other web sites, starting at sensible prices for speeds like 76/19.

The beauty of FTTP is it always sync's at exactly the (underlying Openreach) product speed. (40/10, 80/20 and higher). No "up to" connection speed. There will be some variations in throughout speed of course depending on the provider's backhaul capacity, but with the major and some smaller ISPs that should not be a problem. The same variation exists whatever internet connection you have.

You should definitely go for an FTTP product. The prices at the lower levels are the same as the variable speed FTTC/VDSL2 products where as MrS said, the highest connection speed would still be under 30Mbps.

Very importantly, if there is a long-standing intermittent or frequent fault on your copper line, FTTP does not use any copper. It is fibre all the way into your house. VDSL/FTTC still uses your existing copper line from the cabinet.

Thanks very much.

I do understand the FTTP vs FTTC, just didn't think I needed more than dsl until the lockdown hit.

I am not sure if I am being unfair and this is actually an acceptable dsl line - so can I ask, (if you have time) - I don't know what the data I posted is telling me - does my line indicate anything untoward or is it just an ok/slowish dsl and I am over using it?

I take it red on a graph is an upstream issue, but the blue on my graph is just me using the line heavily?

Thank you for your time.

Line looks reasonable for ADSL/ADSL2+ based on the likely distance.

Red represents packet loss, whether the packet was lost in incoming or outgoing directions is unknown.

Packet loss can also be shown for when packets are delayed a lot, and with the low upload and low download of your line if others are using it then not unreasonable to see variations. To see how line is behaving need to turn off WiFi and disconnect ethernet devices for an hour to see impact on BQM.

The blue may be issues with the line or you using the connection, same with yellow.

Its all been very helpful - to understand my broadband better and stop me blaming my SP due to unreasonable expectation.

I meant to do a no-connection test and will do that.

Thank you all, and to TB for the BQM and forum

Good luck. Let us know how things go please .

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Seems like the OP "might" be located on the outer boundaries served by their exchange.

Also a FTTC connection "might" not be a better for them due to them being 1km from their cabinet.

Paul

There aren't many (if any) ADSL lines that will outperform FTTC at 1km from the cabinet.

At (slightly over) 1km from the cabinet I got 44Mb after years of crosstalk.
Even a cautious estimate should see a 1km long line get over 20Mb.

Then you need to take in to account that the vast majority of lines that are 1km from the cabinet will be much further than that from the exchange, reducing what can be received on ADSL.

FTTC at 1km should be considerably faster than the 6Mb the OP currently gets on ADSL.

Edited by j0hn83 (Wed 20-May-20 14:14:31)

Yeah I wasn't too sure which was why I said "might" just in case.

Paul

Even if it was 2-2.5km to the cabinet it would be outperforming the ADSL.

I monitor one line that is 3.5km from cabinet and it can get 3Mbps and have when everything was perfect, nudged 4Mbps - ADSL is at 1Mbps on a 9+km line.

Hi again

I'm still trying to learn how to understand these graphs. After really useful help from everyone last time - where I learned that the yellow/blue is use of the line, I've suddenly experienced a lot more unreliability and am getting all this packet loss - can anyone help explain what this could be please (BTW I am working on changing the service to FTTC).

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

I did do a no-usage test, on this graph at around 10pm

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

Thanks All

Your first link doesn't work. It looks to be incomplete.

So the fact when you are doing nothing the BQM looks good really shows that what you are seeing on the BQM is a result of your own activity

If preserving latency is necessary you have to implement QoS procedures i.e. essentially not use all of your connection in any one direction. WIth an ADSL/ADSL2+ connection and the low upload this means slowing down upload activity a lot.

sorry here's the link (hopefully)

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

It's all the red that suddenly appeared.

t's just online home working by 3 people - shouldn't be too much (active) uploading going on.

Nothing as far as I know has changed from before but suddenly its looking worse. Last time I had red they changed upped the SNR and the red went away.

If its mostly download, is the packet loss still just us overworking the line or could it be network problem/congestion.

Speed test just now tells me I'm only on 2.4 bursting to 3 down and 2.1-2.4 up.

Is the packet loss still just me overloading the line? I realise I have a slow line but its the not slow but complete not responding at what seems like random times that is really annoying. I can't tell if this is congested network (not my fault) or just our usage.

If no packet loss when no-one is using connection other than BQM then the packet loss is down your three peoples activity

You said "2.4 bursting to 3 down and 2.1-2.4 up" but if you have ADSL your upload will be under 1 Mbps

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 04-Jun-20 22:18:21)

Have looked

Your speed test
http://tbb.st/1591271110571343255

Looks like it was done on O2 mobile which explains the upload i.e not ADSL

Believe this is your Plusnet connection http://tbb.st/1589535862821473255

Time to get the order in for a FTTP service, no need to pay for the expensive speeds, you can get entry level 40/10 service for £27.99 or similar a month

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 04-Jun-20 22:27:30)