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Standard User Kail
(learned) Sat 30-Oct-10 18:05:57
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Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[link to this post]
 
I've got a some what flaky internet connection, help.

I've followed the advice that BT give about wiring (removed Sky, extensions, etc.), position of router and cycling the HUB, etc. I also have some line noise and so I did a line test through the BT website from another connection and it comes back that there is nothing wrong, BUT THERE IS!

I also get a fair number of errored seconds (and recently loss of framing and signal) which I've been told is a bad thing. Not sure how bad but from the notes I've taken over the last few weeks...

116 in 7 mins, sync 4896Kbps.
144 in 10 hours, sync 4896Kbps.
170 in 5.5 hours, sync 5728Kbps.
213 in 31.5 hours, sync 5728Kbps.

When I first moved into the property a few years ago I was told the line can support 5Mb even though I live just over 1km (2.25km by road) from the exchange. It is now listed as 4Mb and it seems to be getting slower and inconsistent...

22-10-2010 BT Speed Test at 23:40pm, Test1=490Kbps, Test3=674Kbps, Sync is 4896Kbps
23-10-2010 BT Speed Test at 00:25am, Test1=363Kbps, Test3=610Kbps, Sync is 4320Kbps
28-10-2010 BT Speed Test at 00:18am, Test1=756Kbps, Sync 4896Kbps
28-10-2010 BT Speed Test at 19:52pm, Test1=1779Kbps, Sync 5728Kbps
30-10-2010 BT Speed Test at 15:37pm, Test1=995Kbps, Sync 5248Kbps

I ran a speed test at 4 in the morning that returned 3666Kbps (WOW!) and I've had a couple of 2.7Mbps at more reasonable times but shortly afterwards the speed goes right back down again. Unless I get a sync speed in the high 4000s I don't get much above 1000Kbps most of the time. I can rarely watch YouTube and iPlayer vids without long buffering waits that make them unwatchable. Internet gaming is pretty poor experience as well. Webpage loads last week were like going back to 56K dial up.

Can anyone help? Thanks.
Standard User tommy45
(experienced) Sat 30-Oct-10 18:20:33
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
Can you post your line stats from your router?
the bits we need are : attenuation up/down sync speed up/down Snr up/down and of course the error count

Without those it's a bit difficult to see what is going on, it could be that bt's archaic DLM is at play and has increased the downstream snrm causing a lower sync speed, the poor throughput could be down to the bt network congestion/high contention ratios even the actual speed test site could be having issues

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 30-Oct-10 18:21:39)

Standard User Kail
(learned) Sat 30-Oct-10 19:42:14
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: tommy45] [link to this post]
 
Internet was off between 7pm and 1am last night (Friday), BT status line reported a problem in the north of England at the time. The HUB was previously on at 5728Kbps but has since resynced as it had to reconnect after BT's network problem. Router stats from Home HUB 2.0 (Type A)...

Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 23:23:51
Downstream 5,248 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 8.9 dB / 25.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 43.0 dB / 28.0 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 19.8 dBm / 12.0 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 0
Loss of Signal (Local) 0
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 75240 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 44 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 34

Clocked another 9 errored seconds since mid afternoon. The noise margin has been as high as 11-12 for a few weeks and has only just gone down to it's current level for the last few days. Before that happened the sync speed went 5000+ (5728Kbps peak) after I fitted a filtered face plate and short ADSL cable. Previously it was stuck mid 4000s. Thanks.


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Standard User geordiekris
(experienced) Sat 30-Oct-10 19:47:11
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
5248 down is a 5meg synch so should be getting throughput of at least 4 meg possibly even 4.5 but i cant remember the BRAS profile steps if you search the news section of the home page there is a link on it somewhere to the sych = bras profile

my name has been changed to save me from more company disciplinary procedures.

whatever i say is my thoughts and not those of the company i work for
Standard User Kail
(learned) Sat 30-Oct-10 20:07:54
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: geordiekris] [link to this post]
 
My IP Profile according to the BT Speed Test is 4000Kbps. A week ago It was showing as 3500Kbps. I recall it being 2000Kbps for a long time a couple of years ago even though I synced at about 4500Kbps.

Edited by Kail (Sat 30-Oct-10 20:10:34)

Standard User RobertoS
(legend) Sat 30-Oct-10 22:20:55
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: geordiekris] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by geordiekris:
5248 down is a 5meg synch so should be getting throughput of at least 4 meg possibly even 4.5 but i cant remember the BRAS profile steps if you search the news section of the home page there is a link on it somewhere to the sych = bras profile
I have a table on this page.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User Kail
(learned) Mon 01-Nov-10 02:51:01
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Amazingly my IP profile has gone up again to 4500Kbps with a sync of 5248Kbps. Although I've had no chance to test it during the day the through put just after midnight seems OK. I'll run a few test again when I can.

Until the outage the other night I had recently had a few few syncs in the high 5000s almost 6000. Still getting a number of errored seconds which makes me think the line could do better than it is, any idea how to get rid of these?

Maybe the line can do 5Mb but has degraded with age? It is an old line, although I've not lived here that long I'm sure it was put in in the 80s sometime. It's has an old Telecom "T" in top right of box plus a 4 core wire whos colours match nothing I've read about telephone wiring. Although the wiring looks sound on the building, the poll outside is nothing but a bundle of looping wires and not very clean like the other polls in the street.

I'll get back with a few speed tests and see what it's like to use on the new settings.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 01-Nov-10 09:19:14
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
34 errored seconds out of 23*3600=not very many really.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Kail
(learned) Mon 01-Nov-10 12:04:25
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I guess so but what about...

Connection time 0 days, 0:06:50
Error Seconds (Local) 116

If I get higher volumes like that from time to time is that the source of the poor through put I've been experiencing? Having said that the connection seems a little quicker recently and hopefully it will continue to improve. How worried should I be about errored seconds and the volume of them?
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Mon 01-Nov-10 14:08:30
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
All that means is that there was at least one error in each of those 116 seconds.

It doesn't mean 116 seconds of errors...
Standard User RobertoS
(legend) Mon 01-Nov-10 15:32:51
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by shtu:
All that means is that there was at least one error in each of those 116 seconds.

It doesn't mean 116 seconds of errors...
I don't think that is entirely correct.

It seems partly to depend on the router firmware what it means, but errors occurr much more frequently than error second counts go up. I'm fairly sure you can have errors without the error second count incrementing.

Some routers also split the overall error seconds into Error Seconds and Severe Error Seconds, the latter being where a serious throughput effect could be occurring.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 01-Nov-10 16:11:10
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
116 in 6 minutes is heading down to the you have a problem, but you MUST eliminate anything of your own doing first, unless you want an Openreach engineer to charge you for sorting out the issue when it could take yourself just some time and making sure your wiring is not the issue.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Kail
(learned) Mon 01-Nov-10 18:15:51
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I've followed BT's advice on improving the speed. Removed everything from the line I could Sky and additional phones/extensions. I moved the router (HUB2) away from everything electrical and fitted a filtered faceplate (XTE-2005) to the BT box. Used a 1m ADSL cable to link the router and a CAT5e run across the room to the computer.

The existing phone is of the cordless type and is double filtered with an XF-1e plugged into the faceplate. However it is on the end of an ordinary telephone extension cable. I've considered fitting a socket across the room for the phone and using CW1308 to connect it to the filtered faceplate. Not sure if that would improve things.

I ran the BT test again...
BT Speed Test at 17:48pm, Test1=1278Kbps, IP Profile 4500, Sync 5728

I've not had any of the sub 600K results I got the other week and I'm a bit worried that if I ask them to investigate they will say it is operating with in the so called acceptable limits 600K-7150K. Will BT do anything about it or do I have to coax them out with milk and cookies?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 01-Nov-10 18:29:27
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
The thing is that tracking down a random noise source is possible but would take many man hours - try tuning an AM radio to around 300Khz and searching out a random noise source.

Now consider that devices 100's of metres away may be the source, and when its dark it can be because of overseas AM radio stations.

If the problem is noise, then generally it is better during the day, and the solution would in the first instance be to raise the target noise margin to 15dB.

It may be the problem is simply congestion.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User andyboygsi
(newbie) Mon 01-Nov-10 18:40:37
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
quote 'I also have some line noise '

can you elaborate on this for me..remove all equipment and insert phone alone with no filter. you will get a wooshing noise but disregard this until it stops.

dial 17070 or 147017070 if ex D and select option 2 'quiet line' test. let the test run, just over 5 mins and if you hear any crackling report your line as noisy to your CP and insist on a engineer visit.

likely the line may have an HR dis somewhere.


you said you mentioned you were 2000 or so metres from the exchange so that may explain what i think is an unusually high for length downstream Att

these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.
Standard User andyboygsi
(learned) Mon 01-Nov-10 20:55:44
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: andyboygsi] [link to this post]
 
ps ensure you do this at the nte5 test socket

these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.
Standard User Kail
(learned) Tue 02-Nov-10 11:02:16
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: andyboygsi] [link to this post]
 
OK I'll run that test today when I get the chance.
EDIT: See this post.

Edited by Kail (Tue 02-Nov-10 12:20:32)

Standard User Kail
(learned) Tue 02-Nov-10 11:24:03
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I have an AM radio with a digital tuner it does not go as low as 300 only goes to 522. Kitz site has a bit about using a radio at 612 and at that frequency you can hear the router (and other things). Sounds like an old 8-bit loading sequence, brings back memories of my old ZX Spectrum.
Standard User Kail
(learned) Tue 02-Nov-10 12:14:01
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: andyboygsi] [link to this post]
 
Test done 11:30am.

I clearly heard pops and clicks for a while at the start of the test it settled down to just the odd click now and then, about 2 mins in a got a bit more of what I had at the start and then it was mostly quiet after that.

I did not hear the wooshing sound you said I would. Not sure if it is relevant but it is raining and very windy at the moment.

The noise I have experienced in normal usage has been the usual back ground hiss being loud enough to distort the dial tone, you don't really notice it when people talk to you. Sometimes you don't really notice it but it is there.

Also on the odd occasion people have said they can not hear us, unable to confirm at the time if it was equipment or the line. Although on one occasion it was definately someone elses faulty phone, they have since replaced it.

I've already reported it last week as a noisy line and had it tested through the BT website but it has come back as not faulty and no further steps have been taken.

According to SamKnows I'm 1.1km from the exchange in a straight line, but there is a park and playing fields between me and the exchange by road going around these to my house via the box at the end of the road it is at least 2km, so the line is probably a bit longer than that.

Thanks for all the help and advice. smile (includes everyone)

Edited by Kail (Tue 02-Nov-10 12:18:10)

Standard User andyboygsi
(learned) Tue 02-Nov-10 18:19:14
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
you say you here a hiss in the background. some cordless phones give a constant pitch hiss, not much can be done except buy a new phone.

if you have a cheap corded phone stick that in and do the testing again. it should be pretty much silent. sometimes if this shows nothing try ringing it with your mob then lay down the mob and answer the phone as normal and have a listen, sometimes HR and rectified loops are brought on by the ringing current.

when people are talking about 612mw they are referring to rein faults. the radio trick may highlight an issue but trying to pinpoint and rectify these faults are a complete nightmare. whether it originates from the EU or a third party and so on. A strong rein fault will devastate adsl services and take a considerable amount of time to rectify. Its not been unknown to have the power board onsite to shut down large chunks of power network as a kind of elimination when trying to narrow it down, THANKFULLY THESE ARE MEGA RARE.



Are you in a newish house or an older one. are you fed by a pole or underground, or maybe even a wall box?

these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.
Standard User Kail
(learned) Tue 02-Nov-10 19:29:22
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: andyboygsi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andyboygsi:
if you have a cheap corded phone stick that in and do the testing again. it should be pretty much silent.
I did use a cheap corded phone plugged into the test socket and the result is as I posted. My regular phone is a cordless type and does like you say add a bit of noise. Now and then the back ground noise (or the hiss) gets loud, not something that happens everytime. It is far less noticable on the corded phone in the test socket, but it is there. Should I run the test again to see if it is repeatable?

I'm in an older house and from the NTE5 the wire goes staight outside (through the wall), up the wall, along the edge of the roof just under the gutter and across to the pole. There are about 25 wires going to the pole and the one from my house looks like it is pulled rather tight, most of the others are slack and wave about in the wind. Not sure if that helps.
Standard User DavidMcL
(newbie) Fri 19-Nov-10 13:13:38
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: tommy45] [link to this post]
 
You probably know all this already. I think I had a similar problem - steadily deteriorating Linespeed. I was told that each time my router was shut down by my time switch, a 'robot' at the exchange sensed a problem and reduced the speed. The same thing happened last week when an engineer disconnected my line while investigating a different fault.
Standard User Kail
(learned) Sat 20-Nov-10 03:59:05
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: DavidMcL] [link to this post]
 
I've not had the time to chase my problem with BT yet, but since I last posted on this thread... The router has been on 24/7 for the last 2 weeks and the sync rate has gone up and up as the noise margin has gone down. It peaked at 6784kbps with an IP profile of 5500Kbps, the noise margin has settled around 4.5db. The throughput on the connection is still up and down, although more up than down in the last week.

I notice that PlusNet's exchange checker still has my exhange as having problems with some Virtual Pathways, since the major outage in the North of England the other week. The BT status page and line says nothing is wrong.

The sync dropped a little bit to 6464kbps about 9am in the morning the other day and over 2000 errored seconds were reported in the following 13 hours. A rate of 1 every 23 seconds, if maths right. Loss of framing and signal were reported as well. I'm guessing that something is periodicaly interfering with the line as these errors seem to come in bursts. I can not pin down exactly when they are happening, 9am the other morning does seem a good starting point but I was elsewhere at the time.

Connection time 0 days, 13:05:07
Downstream 6,464 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 4.8 dB / 25.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 43.0 dB / 27.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 19.8 dBm / 12.0 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 16
Loss of Signal (Local) 3
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 108778 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 94 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 2085

I recorded a BT speed test of 5022Kbps (WOW!) at a sync of 6784Kbps a few days ago. I've never had speed test results that high before. Not long afterwards I'm back to 2000Kbps and below again. The slow periods do seem less now but they still grind everything to a halt, and I still get noise on my voice line.

I've been toying with the idea of putting my Netgear DG834 v2 back on line just to see how it gets on. At least I could use router stats to get a better idea of what is going on. Although I've been lead to believe the Broadcom chip in the HUB2 is the better option than the Texas Instruments chip in the Netgear?

BTW: Also discovered completely by accident when using a TCP/IP tester off another site, that my MTU needed to be lowered to 1472 to stop packet fragmentation.
Standard User Kaytfoh
(newbie) Wed 11-Jan-12 11:26:33
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Kail:
fitted a filtered faceplate (XTE-2005) to the BT box. Used a 1m ADSL cable to link the router and a CAT5e run across the room to the computer.

The existing phone is of the cordless type and is double filtered with an XF-1e plugged into the faceplate.


Are you saying you have an XF-1e (awesome microfilter btw) connected into an already filtered faceplate? I've resolved countless set up issues causing throughput and lower sync rate issues just by educating people on the simple fact that double filtering causes issues.

I really hope that when you said you plugged in the XF-1e it was to the test socket and not the ADSL filtered faceplate.

If it is in the phone socket of the ADSL filtered faceplate plug your phone directly in, I've solved many a throughput issue in my time as a fault analyst by correcting these basic issues. I'm surprised no-one questioned it.

If you are using an extension cable (again a bad move when it comes to speed) then you cannot use your broadband at the end of it, as again you would need to double filter to even connect it. A phone at the end of one is fine without a filter, as the socket itself would provide the filtering.

If this is all just misunderstanding your post I apologise, it just seemed to conflict itself a couple of times in terms of your set up.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 11-Jan-12 12:52:29
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Re: Errored Seconds and Line Noise


[re: Kaytfoh] [link to this post]
 
tongue
Welcome to the forums, but he's probably already got it sorted. Note the year of the whole of the thread.

Incidentally, re double filtering, I agree he shouldn't need one for the phone as it was then, (may have changed), but Sky boxes often used to need it, and occasionally still do.

Re using broadband at the end of his extension, that would be impossible, whether through the XTE-2005 phone socket, the XF-1e phone socket, or both. So I'm not sure what you are saying with "... as again you would need to double filter to even connect it".

Anyway, a dead thread smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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