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Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Sun 17-Jul-11 20:29:48
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Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[link to this post]
 
Been experiencing some issues since last night and today with horrible speeds and line keeps dropping. Even loading bbc news website comes to a stand-still !

Usually I get a speed drop to 115kb/s during the week, but mostly it stays at what it should be around 220kb/s.

copied directly from the advanced adsl tab:

Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 3:20:45
Downstream 1,696 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 15.1 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 59.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 17.4 dBm / 11.9 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 0
Loss of Signal (Local) 4
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 63065 / 1
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 2835 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 1


As I can see the line is connecting a lot slower than usual, but the rest I don't understand! Any help would be greatly appreciated as even loading this site is taking painfully long !!
Standard User john2007
(legend) Sun 17-Jul-11 22:08:18
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
What does http://www.speedtester.bt.com/ say?
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Sun 17-Jul-11 22:30:00
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
it said 1604kbps... With a green bar and that it's fine. I just rang up BT and they said it was something to do with the servers being busy and have reset my line. Seems to be working ok now, but up to 10 days to sync fully! So i'm guessing it was a problem on their end?


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Standard User john2007
(legend) Sun 17-Jul-11 22:32:44
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Sounds like a remote problem. That test should also tell you your line's profile. Sometimes that can be much lower than your current sync.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 18-Jul-11 01:11:05
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Do a single reconnection in daylight, then read/post the stats straight afterwards.

Following that, post the numbers part of the results of a BT Speed test. then we can see if things are OK and just a matter of waiting a bit for normality.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Mon 18-Jul-11 09:42:34
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the quick replies guys.

Basically just synced up again this morning and now:

ADSL line status
Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:10:59
Downstream 576 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 16.2 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 59.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 16.6 dBm / 11.9 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 1056
Loss of Signal (Local) 640
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 475 / 8
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 75 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 5
Error Seconds (Local) 4778


It was working ok last night, key difference seems to be 'Latency type'. When that says fast it seems to work ok, but on interleaved this morning you can see the horrible sync speeds and back to web pages never loading.

BT SPEED TEST:

The Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 135 k

---


FAQ

Results Image not loaded

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
113 Kbps

0 Kbps 250 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 113 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 50-250 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :576 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 135 Kbps
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Mon 18-Jul-11 10:16:59
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Are there any audible faults on the phone line? Cracklling, popping, rustling sounds?
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Mon 18-Jul-11 10:20:44
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
Yes, on the phone handsets it's always hard to hear people (has been like that for years). Tried with 2 different wireless handsets and still always been the same. Usually very quiet with some light crackling in the background.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 18-Jul-11 10:29:51
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Those stats are terrible frown.

Is the phone line noisy with the phone, (preferably a corded one), in the test socket, on the wall at the back in this pic? No filter, nothing at all.

There should be no crackling.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Mon 18-Jul-11 10:44:41
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I tried it in the main socket with the cordless phone (sorry only thing I have :/)... It just seems like there is a lot of interference, but only in terms of the line seems very quiet. No real cracking or popping or any of that on the line. Just a light hum maybe?

the line just dropped while trying to reply and now it's this:

ADSL line status
Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:02:14
Downstream 160 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 12.9 dB / 11.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 63.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 12.6 dBm / 12.4 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 1087
Loss of Signal (Local) 648
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 1403 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 3 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 2


Should I cry now, or later?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 18-Jul-11 11:10:08
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
What do you mean by the "main socket"? The test socket is the one to use, as that eliminates the other phone wiring, or at least it does if things are correctly wired. Have you got that sort of master socket, as in the pic?

None of us seems to have mentioned the Quiet line test. 17070 option 2. Should be effectively silent.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Mon 18-Jul-11 11:12:33
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I don't have a socket anywhere in the house that looks like that test socket. They all have new/custom faceplates on them and the internet is plugged in to the main telephone socket in the house (the first one). When you take the faceplate off there is not anything like the picture you uploaded on any of them.

I will try that number now from the landline.

edit: quiet line test couldn't hear any noise.

Edited by Meloco65 (Mon 18-Jul-11 11:14:20)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 18-Jul-11 13:43:31
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
LJ 2 variants, like here?

What colours of wire to which terminals?

Have you got a Sky box or phone-conencted burglar alarm. Do you use a plug-in phone extension cable for anything?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Mon 18-Jul-11 16:30:25
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Hmm.

I'd try the quiet line test with a decent-quality corded phone - borrow one from somewhere if you can. (cordless phones often electronics in them that can mask or exaggerate a problem)

You don't have a socket like this,

http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring_files/...

anywhere?
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Mon 18-Jul-11 16:47:21
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Literally looked all over and can't find any of that, will try to take the sockets off later on.

But as for the line test and everything. No background noise what so ever, even with a corded phone. All is fine.

I think I need this latency type changed to fast and not interleaved?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 18-Jul-11 16:49:38
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
on the phone handsets it's always hard to hear people (has been like that for years). Tried with 2 different wireless handsets and still always been the same. Usually very quiet with some light crackling in the background
?
Should be no crackling and no hum.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Mon 18-Jul-11 17:16:24
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yes but when I did the test for quietness there was nothing of note. As in there was just silence, no humming or anything. Just seems to be during phone calls.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 18-Jul-11 17:24:16
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
When was the last time you had new filters? Do any wires rest on the router power supply or go very close to it?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Mon 18-Jul-11 17:31:50
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I changed all the filters last night, and I have just a couple of power cables over the cable of the router. Not actually over the router itself.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Tue 19-Jul-11 13:05:11
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Noise margin (Down/Up) 16.2 dB / 17.0 dB


That's the real lproblem.

*Something* has made the system decide that your line is noisy or unstable, and increased this (default is 6dB, looking at that you've been forced up to 15dB = bad.)

I'd retry the quiet line test a few more times. It could be an intermittent fault causing it.

(TBH, and this is a different job really, I'd be looking to get Openreach in to install an NTE-type master socket, then install a filtered faceplate.)
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Tue 19-Jul-11 13:07:59
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
I think I need this latency type changed to fast and not interleaved?


No, you don't.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Tue 19-Jul-11 13:12:28
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Usually I get a speed drop to 115kb/s during the week, but mostly it stays at what it should be around 220kb/s.

Connection time 0 days, 3:20:45


That suggests to me your line is frequently disconnecting, and jumping between profiles quite often - 115kbs is about a 1250k profile, to get 220kbps I'd expect to see a 2000kbps profile at least.

You would never get 220kbs on the 1600-ish sync speed shown in your first post.

It's all pointing to some intermittent fault that is causing disconnects and the raising of the noise margin.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Tue 19-Jul-11 13:54:19
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
Yes usually my line syncs at 2mbps / 2.5mbps. But since switching to BT from UKonline I see regular speed drops (but still sync at 2mbps). Those stats I've posted have been from when the real problems began on Friday night. I'm now synced at 288 Kbps ! Less than my upload !

Would openreach charge to install a main socket? Also, If what you are saying and there is an intermittent fault is that going to be something I should ask the BT customer services to check up on?

I mean at the moment it is just rediculously slow about 2.3kb/s i'm seeing on my traffic meter for just browsing websites.

Edited by Meloco65 (Tue 19-Jul-11 17:43:06)

Standard User shtu
(experienced) Wed 20-Jul-11 09:37:25
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Yes usually my line syncs at 2mbps / 2.5mbps.


Thought so.

In reply to a post by Meloco65:
But since switching to BT from UKonline I see regular speed drops (but still sync at 2mbps).


Speed can and does vary at busy times, as long as the sync stays the same throughout there's not a problem for you to deal with.

In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Those stats I've posted have been from when the real problems began on Friday night. I'm now synced at 288 Kbps ! Less than my upload !


If you are certain that you can't hear any problem with the line, and have tested repeatedly, I think it's time to raise a fault with the ISP. Try posting in the UKOnline forum here and see if an ISP rep picks it up.

(I've tended to find serious audible problems affect the upstream, probably as the frequencies used for upstream are closest to the ones used for audio)

In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Would openreach charge to install a main socket?


IIRC yes, about £30. Others may know that more certainly than I do.

Personally, I'd almost always try for a setup where there is an NTE master, an Openreach filtered faceplate, with the router plugged in there, and the rest of the extension wiring connected to the faceplate. But then, I'm so far from the exchange that arrangement makes a major difference. If nothing else makes it easier to remove the internal wiring from suspicion if there is a fault.

In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Also, If what you are saying and there is an intermittent fault is that going to be something I should ask the BT customer services to check up on?


No, because you're telling me you can't hear any noise, so it's not BT's problem. Assuming BT are still the phone provider, they will only care that the phone works for audio. (and fax, and 28.8 modem)

In reply to a post by Meloco65:
I mean at the moment it is just rediculously slow about 2.3kb/s i'm seeing on my traffic meter for just browsing websites.


Again, if you're certain there's no audio problem, ISP time.

(Note, if you are competent with a screwdriver, it is possible to disconnect the extension wiring yourself and retest, but only do this if you are confident you can put it all back together properly. If you're feeling confident, post back.)
Standard User ggremlin
(committed) Wed 20-Jul-11 11:07:49
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
who is your isp? - you say UK Online, but sky assimilated them...

also can you try a different router
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 12:23:51
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: ggremlin] [link to this post]
 
Both you and shtu seem to have misread
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Yes usually my line syncs at 2mbps / 2.5mbps. But since switching to BT from UKonline I see regular speed drops (but still sync at 2mbps). Those stats I've posted have been from when the real problems began on Friday night. I'm now synced at 288 Kbps ! Less than my upload !


My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User ggremlin
(committed) Wed 20-Jul-11 12:33:37
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
ok, to bt wink

still worth trying another router
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 13:03:34
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: ggremlin] [link to this post]
 
I have an old netgear lying around - But no idea on my username or password as it seems to be all automatic from the BT Hub?

Also - Just changed all the filters and asked them to change the line to 'Fast'. Rediculous ping is fine, and can play online gaming for a little while. But any speed tests and it comes back 0.11 and websites are still very very slow. The noise on the line must be the key to this, but short of calling a BT engineer over i've looked all over for the master socket again and can't find one. I doubt i'm savvy enough to pull the wires out either !
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 20-Jul-11 13:08:11
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Noise as in audible noise?

If that is present 10 minutes or so after disconnecting all ADSL kit and filters, then report a noise voice line.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 13:14:53
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
no sorry I didn't mean noise on the line. I've done the BT test several times on different sockets and no Audible noise is present. BUT from these stats:

ADSL line status
Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:16:24
Downstream 1,824 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 14.9 dB / 16.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 59.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 17.1 dBm / 11.9 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 11
Loss of Signal (Local) 1
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 196 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 14
Error Seconds (Local) 12


One member said the noise on my line is way way too high.
Standard User ggremlin
(committed) Wed 20-Jul-11 13:22:20
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
if you connect the netgear router, it should sync, and give line stats. (without any username/password)

but the usual login details are:
username [email protected] ie [email protected]
password <blank>, or bt
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 20-Jul-11 13:53:01
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
1.8Meg with a target noise of 15dB, the standard and probably what you had with UK Online was 6dB, which at a guess would be a 2.5 to 3Meg connection speed.

The line may have wandered around speed wise with UK Online, but since there was no IP Profile system it was less noticeable, plus the BT DLM tries to achive stability by slowing down a line. The UK Online was the one ISP using SRA that in some cases allowed a modem to adjust speed in a much smoother manner - hard to make it work on a variety of hardware.

The worry is the CRC errors which look high (196, the 2147480000 figure is a known bug) for such a short time, probably a consequence of noise on the line, and to be honest unless you can resolve the wiring in the property to the point of finding out which is the first socket in the line, and disconnecting the others for testing you risk a large call out fee from BT to look into anything.

What I am saying is that it is entirely feasible this issue was masked by the way UK Online worked, i.e. your wiring may have been poor all along.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 14:23:41
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thank-you so much for this reply !!

I will go and check with all the different sockets and see If there is any difference in the line. I am still confused as to why the sync speed is sometimes ok, but the speed is stuck on a constant 0.10 (speedtest.net)? Also, directly after BT first reset the line, the speed and synch was perfect. However, the morning after when there was a change from fast to interleaved made such a difference in the line.

I hear what you are saying about the wiring and I think it will be a case of checking all the sockets with the router again and trying my netgear router. I'll report back after, and hopefully find a fault. All the wiring in the house is fairly new though (about 3 - 5 years), so i'm hoping it's not that....
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 20-Jul-11 14:55:43
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/faq/sections/radsl.htm... The issue you are seeing with speeds staying low when modem says you should get faster is down to the IP Profile.

Fairly new place - umm if put in by the builder they are notorious for doing things such that phones work, but is NOT good for ADSL.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ukhardy07
(member) Wed 20-Jul-11 15:20:59
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Thank-you so much for this reply !!

I will go and check with all the different sockets and see If there is any difference in the line. I am still confused as to why the sync speed is sometimes ok, but the speed is stuck on a constant 0.10 (speedtest.net)? Also, directly after BT first reset the line, the speed and synch was perfect. However, the morning after when there was a change from fast to interleaved made such a difference in the line.

I hear what you are saying about the wiring and I think it will be a case of checking all the sockets with the router again and trying my netgear router. I'll report back after, and hopefully find a fault. All the wiring in the house is fairly new though (about 3 - 5 years), so i'm hoping it's not that....


You're saying that there's no BT master socket. If you don't have this it's almost definitely the internal wiring at your end.

A correct setup is phone line going into the back of the BT master. Then from the master all of the internal lines are connected

An incorrect setup and popular with builders.

Phone line enters into the loft or wherever. Then they use some cheap connectors to split that cable into various lines. Then stick sockets on the end.

This means the signal is massively degraded when you connect a router.

THIS IS HOW I THINK YOUR SETUP IS

http://b.imagehost.org/0028/wrong.jpg

THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE

http://b.imagehost.org/0293/right.jpg

This causes havoc on ADSL.

You may even find they have connected a master socket at every single socket. Again causing havoc.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Wed 20-Jul-11 15:23:40)

Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 16:03:56
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Ah ukhardy07 you are exactly right. As I have a connection directly from the phone line outside straight into the wall. Argh, so how to fix this? Only an engineer of BT?
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Wed 20-Jul-11 16:26:31
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
As I have a connection directly from the phone line outside straight into the wall. Argh, so how to fix this?
Could you take a clear photograph of every socket, the wires & terminals and also where your incoming line reaches your house? If so, post them somewhere that we can access . . . we may then be able to give you details how to resolve your suspect wiring.

Also, where are you located in the U.K? Someone capable of helping may be local to you. smile

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 19:37:42
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Right ... For my excellent photo skills:

[IMG]http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...[/IMG] (NO IDEA WHAT THIS IS, IS situated just before another face plate connection)

[IMG]http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...[/IMG]

The line is straight in from the telephone poll outside into the house. The others (I have no idea as I couldn't find the entry point). Although there is a wire draped over the house which needs to be rectified and I think it's for one of the telephone line sockets.

edit: Also, tried with netgear router same line sync speeds and noise margin readings. (Couldn't get the dns to work so didn't try websites).

Edited by Meloco65 (Wed 20-Jul-11 19:54:16)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 20:36:37
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
The last pic, with your finger and thumb, is the master. That yellow cylinder (a capacitor) identifies it.

It looks like blue/white into T2 and orange/white into T5? Does that green wire go into T3?

If it does, gently detach the green wire, (don't cut it), and curl it out of harm's way but not through the hole at the back.

I can't say I like a mixture of blu/w and orange/w but I could be worrying over nothing. Are there plain blue or white/blue, and similarly plain orange or white/orange visible in there or one of the others?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 20-Jul-11 20:37:35)

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Wed 20-Jul-11 20:42:13
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Hmm. Definitely sub-standard wiring. frown

I'll refer to the photographs in the order that you have shown them.

Photos no. 1 & 3. I assume that they are of the same socket? That is an extension socket. Please go back and, referring to no.3, confirm that there are eight individual wires (four coloured pairs, green, blue, orange & brown) & also that the cable outer sheath is black. Is the blue/white stripe connected to IDC2 & the whilte/blue stripe connected to IDC5 ?

Photo no. 2. That is a "700 series" junction box, dating from the period 1959 to 1981. Please unscrew the cover and photograph its interior. Number of wires, colour of wires and what is connected to what is relevant.

Photo no. 4. That is a "master" socket but not an OpenReach (or BT) standard. There is something distinctly wrong in that backing box -- those screw terminal connectors are not OR (BT) standard fitments. Please identify the colour of the cable's outer sheath, the number & colour of individual wires and what is connected to where.

Is there any correlation between where the external cable comes through the wall of the house and to any of those two sockets, one junction box that you have shown us?

Are there any other sockets? Hidden away, perhaps?

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 20:43:07
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
No they are the only two connected phone sockets.

If I remove the green wire what does that do? Disable the other phone sockets? Then test the line plugged in to that master socket and check internet/sync speeds?
Standard User ggremlin
(committed) Wed 20-Jul-11 20:48:35
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Also, tried with netgear router same line sync speeds and noise margin readings.

ok, at least its not the router (or its power supply)

the rest of the wiring does look like it could do with attention, however, it dosnt address why its only started failing now.

what sort of speed do your neighbors have?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:18:15
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
If the green wire is connected to T3, for your purposes disconnecting it can do no harm and will very possibly improve things. It is the ring wire, as explained here.

Whatever good it does may however be swamped by probable other bad things. Sort those and it becomes essential, so may as well be done now. Read on first!

You will probably have seen burakkucat's post by now as well. My question about what other wires are visible was a tiny subset of what he asks, but I'm sure he will agree any wire on T3 should be disconnected. The important connections are T2 and T5.

Having said that, at this level of detail he is streets ahead of me, so I advise you supply the info he asks for. He is talking about what I said I didn't like the look of.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 20-Jul-11 21:19:38)

Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:21:17
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
So...

Master Socket: (No idea where the cable is coming from here)

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...


Bedroom Old 1958 - 1989 socket:

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

[IMG]http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...[/IMG]


Bedroom Extension socket (cable coming directly from outside into wall):

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/Meloco65/IMG...

For this one as clearly as I can write it and understand it:

Extension socket (newest addition):

Blue/w - 2

White / B - 5

Black thick wire has inside:

Green
Green/w
Blue/w
White/B
Orange/w
White/O
Brown


MASTER SOCKET:

Green - 3

Blue - 2

Orange - 5
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:33:14
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
No they are the only two connected phone sockets.
By that, do you mean they are the only two you use? Because earlier you said
They all have new/custom faceplates on them and the internet is plugged in to the main telephone socket in the house (the first one). When you take the faceplate off there is not anything like the picture you uploaded on any of them
which implies there are several.

They may all matter even if not used, because of the way the wiring works.

However, as ggremlin says, none of this explains why your troubles only just started. The wiring does though point to your connection having scope for a vast improvement.

Three questions. Did you change, move or add anything electrical/electronic just before this started, and what are all those connectors lying around in pic 1? I don't quite understand what is connected to what there anyway, so if you can tell us it might help.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:36:10
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I've searched all over and found three. Only the extension socket is in use at the moment (pic 1).

The cables lying around are all just ADSL filters as I tried 3 different ones in to where the broadband is connected. The big black box is just the wireless phones.

I've tidied up a bit now and all the filters are gone except the BT one (that came with the router).

No electrical equipment as far as I can tell/see.

edit: Just on a side note I took the green wire out of T3. Do I need to re-synch the router to test noise drop?

Edited by Meloco65 (Wed 20-Jul-11 21:45:50)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:48:22
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Yes, resync and get the stats.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:48:37
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
After removing the green wire my stats are now:

VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 3.2 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 59.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 16.9 dBm / 11.9 dBm


.... So I'm not sure if there is a clue there? The internet is still horribly slow though.

speedtest:
Ping 81 (was 27 when I tested earlier today)
0.13 (was 0.10 earlier today)
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:49:43
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
You haven't given us the connection speeds.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(learned) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:52:24
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Sorry that was before I restarted the BT Router. The Line was still at 1,680

But now,

After restart frown..

Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:02:21
Downstream 448 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps


ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 15.1 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 58.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 14.5 dBm / 11.9 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 0
Loss of Signal (Local) 0
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 0

Edited by Meloco65 (Wed 20-Jul-11 21:52:56)

Standard User thomaswarne01
(newbie) Wed 20-Jul-11 21:59:13
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Try plugging the router into the very 1st socket (closest do wire coming into house) and post your stats please.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:10:39
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: thomaswarne01] [link to this post]
 
plugged in at master socket:

ADSL line status
Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:02:18
Downstream 544 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 15.3 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 58.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 14.9 dBm / 11.9 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 0
Loss of Signal (Local) 0
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 0
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:12:49
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Filter evasion follows!
*^n

That's impossible. But has happened!

I suggest you re-attach the green wire though! Then re-sync. While we think.

If you haven't got an IDC/Krone tool that does it, (£2 or so at Maplin/B & Q and similar for one that will do - posh ones are expensive), then place the wire across the IDC connector without stripping any insulation off,( the whole point of an IDC connector is it cuts through the insulation as you push the wire in), and gently push in with the edge of a credit card.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 20-Jul-11 22:17:08)

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:13:12
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I'm sure he will agree any wire on T3 should be disconnected. The important connections are T2 and T5.
Absolutely. laugh

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:13:49
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Don't re-sync more that 2 or 3 times in an hour. The system doesn't like it.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:15:44
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
So should I still be re-attaching the green wire? If so do I need this tool to do so, or simply clip back in? Also.... Could it be that I didn't wrap the green wire up well enough and it is still causing inteference??
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:15:54
Print Post

Stop!


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
If you usually use the extension socket, try there!

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Wed 20-Jul-11 22:25:48
Print Post

Re: Stop!


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
do any of the new pictures / Wiring info help at all?

extension socket still the same:

Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 0:01:32
Downstream 544 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps


ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 15.2 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 58.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 14.4 dBm / 11.9 dBm
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Wed 20-Jul-11 23:09:58
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Looking at the first two new photos of the master socket (00076 & 00075), I think I see that the cable entering the dry-liner backing box has a cream (or white) sheath with just four solid colour wires -- the old style blue, brown, green and orange. Blue = B-wire, Orange = A-wire, Green = "bell"-wire. Those two screw-block connectors have been used to connect the newer blue/white and orange/white tails from the B-wire to IDC2 and from the A-wire to IDC5. (Everything is electrically correct but it has not been installed by OR. wink ). The solid green ("bell") wire to IDC3 is unnecessary.

Looking at the first two photos in the bedroom (00079 & 00073), the 700-series connector block (used between 1959 to 1981) is just used to connect two four core cables (blue, brown, green and orange). (It could be where a type 706 or 746 telephone had been connected, prior to BT's creation and is now used to provide the feed to the bedroom socket.) The third and fourth photos in the bedroom (00084 & 00086) are of an extension socket. The solid green ("bell") wires to IDC3 are unnecessary. Clearly, another extension is "daisy-chained" from the bedroom socket. The fifth photo from the bedroom (00087) is, I assume, the backing box showing two cables with unused brown wires.

The "Bedroom Extension socket (cable coming directly from outside into wall)" (00077) is in another bedroom? and is what we have seen previously (00066 & 00068)?

Extension socket (newest addition):

Blue/w - 2

White / B - 5

Black thick wire has inside:

Green
Green/w
Blue/w
White/B
Orange/w
White/O
Brown
You have named seven wires in that cable -- which is not correct. It must be eight. No problems, that is obviously an external grade cable.

All in all, still a bit of a mystery. There is some form of star wiring, with modifications made over the years.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 23:11:27
Print Post

Re: Stop!


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
The pics help a bit, yes.

That junction box looks to me as though the cable coming from the right and into the top is the incoming. The one out of the bottom goes to the master and I don't like the look of that cable.

Goodness knows where the green goes to out of the top of the junction box. Extremely odd.

The one box that clearly has correct wiring colours is the extension that has the b/w with the w/b, but so far as I can tell we haven't seen the other end of that connection.

The obvious thing we have changed is removing the green wire, but I feel it would be a bit premature to reconnect it, as it really is impossible for removing it to have caused the drop to around 500kbps.

What is also strange is the behaviour of the noise margin. That one for instance where it is 3.something instead of 15.something.

A re-sync once it is daylight, using the extension socket and with the master green still off, is what I would try if it was my line. Everything except the router disconnected from the line.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Wed 20-Jul-11 23:24:29
Print Post

Re: Stop!


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thank-you both very much and everyone else so far for trying to help!

Yes the bedroom extension socket is from the same pictures earlier....

Really no idea what to do now frown. I will try to re-connect during day-light tomorrow. Just no idea what to do next? Would it be of benefit to get an engineer round to install a totally new master socket etc?

Is there in no way this would be a fault on BT's end? As I've never had any problems before and like I said when they first reset the line it was fine until the next morning.
Standard User RandomJointer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 20-Jul-11 23:42:15
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
The problem is picture 4.

Split legs. Terminal 2 and 5 should be blue/white to 2 and white/blue to 5. You have split pairs here. Sack the electrician.

Where you have colour code blue/orange green/brown its blue 2 orange 5. and green 3

Where you have colour code blue/white white/blue its blue white 2 and white blue 5 and orange white 3.

You have totally split wiring and also will need to regularise at the junction boxes cos just rejigging the sockets wont work.

colour codes should be regularised as follows. Join wires in junction boxes and sockets according to the colour codes of the cables. .

Blue/white = Blue = Terminal 2
White/Blue = Orange = Terminal 5
Orange/White = Green = Terminal 3.

Edited by RandomJointer (Wed 20-Jul-11 23:58:43)

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Wed 20-Jul-11 23:49:47
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RandomJointer:
The problem is picture 4.

Split legs. Terminal 2 and 5 should be blue/white to 2 and white/blue to 5. You have split pairs here. Sack the electrician.

Where you have colour code blue/orange green/brown its blue 2 orange 5.

Where you have colour code blue/white white/blue its blue white 2 and white blue 5.
To which "picture 4" are you referring, RJ? Would you please quote the photo number (as in 000xxx). If you are referring to 00075 with the two non-OR screw block connectors, please look again. The incoming cable (blue, brown, green, orange) has had the blue and orange wires extended via those screw block connectors to b/w and o/w, respectively. So, in essence, blue goes to IDC2 and orange to IDC5.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.

Edited by burakkucat (Wed 20-Jul-11 23:54:50)

Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Wed 20-Jul-11 23:50:02
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
So it's a mystery as to how the internet has lasted so long? (I'm assuming you mean picture 4 which is the master socket of the first picture set).

Can I re-wire this myself, or best to get a different electrician or BT engineer?

Thank-you for the reply!
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:02:43
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
So it's a mystery as to how the internet has lasted so long? (I'm assuming you mean picture 4 which is the master socket of the first picture set).

Can I re-wire this myself, or best to get a different electrician or BT engineer?

Thank-you for the reply!
There could be an OR charge in excess of £100 but you can not ask them, directly, to do any work.

If I were you, I would be inclined to ask my ISP if they could arrange an OR engineering visit to rationalise the non-standard wiring. Make sure that you tell your ISP that you do not have an NTE5/A and, thus, are unable to disconnect any of the extension wiring. With luck, your ISP will absorb any OR charge . . .

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User RandomJointer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:03:34
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
You have split pairs on the cable with the banded colours. you have correct pairs on the cable with the solid colours.

You need to rig the sockets as I have prescribed but the intermediate junction boxes are also split and need to be connected as I have prescribed as correcting the sockets wont work because the junction boxes have the correct wires disconnected.

If you can't do it yourself you need a telephone engineer.

Banded cable = solid cable = socket
Blue/white = Blue = Terminal 2
White/Blue = Orange = Terminal 5
Orange/White = Green = Terminal 3.

This should be wired at the sockets and the intermediate junction boxes.

Edited by RandomJointer (Thu 21-Jul-11 00:06:43)

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:08:19
Print Post

Re: Stop!


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Goodness knows where the green goes to out of the top of the junction box. Extremely odd.
Possibly to an external junction box, from which a bare copper wire runs down the side of the house (held in place with steel pins which have lead heads and a tag) to an earth spike.

That brings back memories of the very first telephone service my family had, when I was a child. wink

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:11:15
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
You have split pairs on the cable with the banded colours. you have correct pairs on the cable with the solid colours.
To which photograph are you referring? Photo reference number, please.

If 00069, 00075 or 00076, then please look again.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.

Edited by burakkucat (Thu 21-Jul-11 00:14:37)

Standard User RandomJointer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:14:37
Print Post

Re: Stop!


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Green in terminal 3 is an accepted colour code for solid coloured wires.

Local earth on terminal 4 is an accepted colour code for solid coloured wires.

Earth spikes used to be used for party lines back in the day but I am not going to go into X and Y / A and B party line signalling anytime soon as I do not want to confuse our younger viewers. smile

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:19:56
Print Post

Re: Stop!


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
Earth spikes used to be used for party lines back in the day but I am not going to go into X and Y / A and B party line signalling anytime soon as I do not want to confuse our younger viewers. smile
Yes, I concur. However, go back far enough and you will find that all telephony services had an earth wire, fuses and shellac coated carbon blocks within the first junction box inside the premises.

My mention of an earthing spike, etc, was purely for RobertoS' benefit / enjoyment.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.

Edited by burakkucat (Thu 21-Jul-11 00:21:51)

Standard User RandomJointer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:20:04
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
please look again.


I've looked. I have identified the split pairs. I have prescribed the colour codes. My work is done. smile

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:26:44
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
I've looked. I have identified the split pairs. I have prescribed the colour codes. My work is done. smile
I refuse to be drawn by your childish statement and your failure to answer the question you have been asked, not once, but twice.

Electrically, there is nothing "wrong" in "picture 4", i.e. relating to photographs no. 00069, 00075 or 00076.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.

Edited by burakkucat (Thu 21-Jul-11 00:28:35)

Standard User RandomJointer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:36:55
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
It aint childish, It;s basic telecom wiring.

We can all wave willies about lightning protection, wideband carriers, party lines or digital carriers or earth calling signalling.. None of which are a problem to the op.

The Op has simple split pairs.

If the OP follows the colour codes as prescribed in all sockets and junctions boxes he won't have split pairs which the OP has now. If the Op has problems with his party line I'm sure we will all be able to advise.




Banded cable = solid cable = socket
Blue/white = Blue = Terminal 2
White/Blue = Orange = Terminal 5
Orange/White = Green = Terminal 3.

Simply wire as above in all sockets and junction boxes and all will be well. Any apprentice telecom engineer could see the same. The photos clearly show that the OP does not have wiring as prescribed above and has split pairs. Split pairs are bad for broadband.

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:41:27
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
Electrically, there is nothing "wrong" in "picture 4",
There's nothing right in picture 4.



______________________________________________________________________________attack_the_post_not_the_poster__________________
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:43:39
Print Post

Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
Please stop being offensive and just answer the question. From which photograph do you make your deduction regarding "split pairs"?

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User RandomJointer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:45:38
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Correct wiring is not offensive - it's just correct. frown

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:45:58
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
Electrically, there is nothing "wrong" in "picture 4",
There's nothing right in picture 4.
Please do not start your interference. It is unwelcome and unnecessary.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:46:55
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
Electrically, there is nothing "wrong" in "picture 4",
There's nothing right in picture 4.
Please do not start your interference. It is unwelcome and unnecessary.
Try counting the pictures



______________________________________________________________________________attack_the_post_not_the_poster__________________
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:47:49
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RandomJointer:
Correct wiring is not offensive - it's just correct. frown
Still refusing to answer the question?

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:51:22
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
... nested quotes trimmed ...
There's nothing right in picture 4.
Please do not start your interference. It is unwelcome and unnecessary.
Try counting the pictures
Why don't you: (a) Try using the photo numbers, that way there can be no mistake (b) Stop meddling and attempting to aggravate me. It won't work. wink

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:52:14
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
... nested quotes trimmed ...
Please do not start your interference. It is unwelcome and unnecessary.
Try counting the pictures
Why don't you: (a) Try using the photo numbers, that way there can be no mistake (b) Stop meddling and attempting to aggravate me. It won't work. wink
You can count, can't you?



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Standard User RandomJointer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 21-Jul-11 00:54:16
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Sorry mate. This is Janet and John telecoms. I've spelled it out. Punters who can't follow it need to consult a professional or competent DIYer.

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 21-Jul-11 08:04:36
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Re: Stop!


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
My mention of an earthing spike, etc, was purely for RobertoS' benefit / enjoyment.
It did occur to me the green wire could be to earth, but I couldn't understand it (legitimately) going to T3, and the junction box clearly has a bare wire going underneath perhaps to the screw. Though maybe that's a screen?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 21-Jul-11 08:31:26
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RandomJointer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RandomJointer:
You have split pairs on the cable with the banded colours. you have correct pairs on the cable with the solid colours.

You need to rig the sockets as I have prescribed but the intermediate junction boxes are also split and need to be connected as I have prescribed as correcting the sockets wont work because the junction boxes have the correct wires disconnected.

If you can't do it yourself you need a telephone engineer.

Banded cable = solid cable = socket
Blue/white = Blue = Terminal 2
White/Blue = Orange = Terminal 5
Orange/White = Green = Terminal 3.

This should be wired at the sockets and the intermediate junction boxes.
I think I understand this, but the "=" signs are very confusing. I'm sure the OP won't have a clue. Is the first line of that bit meant to be headings as well?

However, am I wrong in thinking the wires into the top of the junction box are incoming from outside, or at least the same type of cable? It's from there on that things go crazy. There also has to be at least one other connector or socket in order for the bedroom one to have correct T2/T5.

Do you have a reason, other than BT standards, for saying T3 should be connected (at this point in time), when we all know that the only people possibly needing that would be the next occupants; the chances of them needing it are miniscule; and it is guaranteed to introduce interference?

As ggremlin and myself have also said, this wiring has apparently been in place for some time. It doesn't explain why the connection suddenly deteriorated. I'm wondering whether we might have a simple new external influence. I agree about the split pairs, which is why I ducked out of that level of detail earlier, and yes that also needs fixing.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 21-Jul-11 08:32:34)

Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Thu 21-Jul-11 08:44:11
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In terms of the wiring I should think it hasn't changed since the 60's. I've just been told the telephone wires are the only thing that havn't been changed in the house, and God knows who did the wiring ! The only wiring that our electrician did was the newest extension box (which appears to be correct?).

I would re-wire it all myself but in fear of taking off the insulation etc. Do I need the tool specified earlier in order to complete this myself? I'm half thinking about pleading to BT OR and just saying install a new box and new wiring and get rid of the old, as I think I can see a part of the telephone line stretched outside across a wall ! But still really perplexed as to how, suddenly, this is affecting my internet so badly. There is no external source or any new electrical equipment etc.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 21-Jul-11 08:47:57
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Is it possible to ask him where that new pair to the new extension is connected to, as you haven't found it? It may be important.

Yes, none of this explains the sudden deterioration. Unless perhaps a joint has gone wonky.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Thu 21-Jul-11 08:49:53
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
As far as I can see it goes straight out of the wall in to the telephone line / connecting to the telegraph pole directly outside.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 21-Jul-11 10:05:55
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
"With luck, your ISP will absorb any OR charge . . . "

It is very unlikely that an ISP will accept a charge of £150 to £200 for this sort of thing.

Though the charge for fitting an NTE5 - i.e. regularisation should be around the £25+VAT mark, but that does not include sorting out any extension wiring.

Even if just the £25 charge were raised, rare for an ISP to absorb it.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 21-Jul-11 10:13:00
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Re: Stop!


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Is there in no way this would be a fault on BT's end?

It is feasiable that the problem is on the BT side, but from what we've seen of your wiring, which is the first thing they check when they arrive, I'd predict a big bill for fixing it, and then if that does not help, they will then look at their network.

Where abouts in the UK are you? If close a simple visit with my bits and pieces to tidy up internal wiring might help.

When they reset a line, the target noise margin would have dropped to 6dB giving you a lot more speed, but instability brought on either by your internal wiring picking up noise, or an external issue, has seen that margin creep back up to 15dB, thus lowering your speed again.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Thu 21-Jul-11 10:22:21
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Re: Stop!


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately I think we are 7 years out of date as I moved from Surrey 7 years ago, and now live in Norfolk and the commute I expect would be too far even for some wiring! But thank-you.

I've rung BT CS and they have forwarded my details on to an engineer, i'm expecting a call by the end of today and guessing I will have to incur high fees to rectify this frown. I personally think there is a problem with BT, as I'm sure my noise margins have always been that high and the speed / latency has always been acceptable (2mbps). How to prove that to BT I am not quite sure as of yet!
Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 18:25:57
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Re: Help please - Horrible issues on the line.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
"With luck, your ISP will absorb any OR charge . . . "

It is very unlikely that an ISP will accept a charge of £150 to £200 for this sort of thing.

Though the charge for fitting an NTE5 - i.e. regularisation should be around the £25+VAT mark, but that does not include sorting out any extension wiring.

Even if just the £25 charge were raised, rare for an ISP to absorb it.
You are right, of course. If the OP just wanted to have the regularisation (the fitting of an NTE5/A), I suspect he will happily pay the fee required for that task.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.

Edited by burakkucat (Thu 21-Jul-11 18:28:43)

Standard User burakkucat
(member) Thu 21-Jul-11 18:33:02
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Re: Stop!


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately I think we are 7 years out of date as I moved from Surrey 7 years ago, and now live in Norfolk and the commute I expect would be too far even for some wiring! But thank-you.
I live in the immediate county to your south -- Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk -- but due to health issues I am not very mobile. How far away from me, into Norfolk, are you?

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Thu 28-Jul-11 11:46:17
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re


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the all the help in here really appreciated!

I've fixed all the sockets myself and still no change, I've come in to the know that BT has basically split the exchange up to cater for other surrounding areas. This in turn means slow speeds and constant connection drops! Pretty poor tbh but I guess I just have to live with it.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Thu 28-Jul-11 14:17:44
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
I've fixed all the sockets myself and still no change,


Define "fixed", please.

Did you get an NTE5 installed?
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Thu 28-Jul-11 18:37:47
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Re: re


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
No NTE5 socket installed, but I re-wired everything as prescribed above. Noise levels are down ever so slightly (around 10 at night - 12 during the day). Just had another call from BT who have said there is an ip-profile and line stats mis-match so they are investigating their end. Apparently this will take two working days, so I will know on Saturday if it is fixed.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Fri 29-Jul-11 09:51:39
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Personally, I'd stump up the £25 and get a new Master fitted.

This then gives you much more flexibility in testing the line, siting the router, running ADSL-only extensions if you want, etc.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 29-Jul-11 09:53:32
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
What is this splitting the exchange thing?

Even if this were done it would not result in your ADSL line flapping around.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Fri 29-Jul-11 21:17:42
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Re: re


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Basically the exchange I'm at is a satellite of a satellite, and to create further demand for broadband they split the lines off from my area, up to another area and use some kind of switch box to connect all the lines together. Effectively halfing our services.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 29-Jul-11 23:03:40
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Still doesn't make sense.

LIne attenuation divided by 12 gives rough length of line in km, are you suggesting that someone BT doubled the length of your line?

Or that the line stats stayed the same, but the speed halved?

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Sat 30-Jul-11 10:08:34
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Re: re


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
No no, basically... My exchange is a satellite exchange off of another town. That town is a satellite exchange off of the main exchange in the city.

Now, to accomodate exchanges further out what they have done is split the lines from the town to my exchange, and then added a split-box or something and then re-added new lines, BUT this has taken away the capacity and speed from my exchange. Because it's not been properly done, does this make sense? Sorry I can't really remember all the technical terms and how it was explained, just the basic outline.

Edited by Meloco65 (Sat 30-Jul-11 10:13:44)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 30-Jul-11 11:12:20
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Because it's not been properly done, does this make sense?
No, especially the bit about not properly done. Who told you this - TalkTalk?



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Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Sat 30-Jul-11 11:29:00
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Re: re


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Nope a technician who works with BT and others. I'm sure if I had the technical know-how to explain it a few words and this would be 'Oh I See'.

The bottom line is they took capacity from my exchange and hooked up another village so that they could have broadband. This has effectively caused more traffic to come in to our exchange, and as a result caused a bottlneck because we are all feeding in to one exchange, which then feeds on to a satellite exchange and thus in turn goes on to the main exchange in the city.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 30-Jul-11 11:32:05
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Nope a technician who works with BT and others.
Not a BT engineer then, just a local electrician?



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Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Sat 30-Jul-11 11:33:21
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Re: re


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Nope not a BT engineer. That is hopefully coming next week now, just got off the phone and one is scheduled smile.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 30-Jul-11 11:34:37
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
Nope not a BT engineer. That is hopefully coming next week now, just got off the phone and one is scheduled smile.
Chances are he's mistaken. Good luck with a real BT guy wink



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Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Sat 30-Jul-11 12:07:47
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Re: re


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I'm hoping so! I will report back as always.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 30-Jul-11 12:10:29
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Meloco65:
I'm hoping so! I will report back as always.
Cool. What's he coming to do?



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Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 31-Jul-11 00:11:19
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Cough !

Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Sun 31-Jul-11 15:30:52
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Re: re


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
haha great film, amazing quote wink. I will wait to see wat the holy grail... I mean BT engineer says.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 01-Aug-11 10:08:58
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Where the backhaul from one exchange goes through another, which is actually the case for thousands of them (i.e. not rare), since at the top of the pyramid there are 22 main node points i.e. where traffic from around the country is aggregated.

Then in these cases it DOES NOT affect the ADSL stats, since the backhaul is done via fibre, and if your exchange had 155Mbps of backhaul, they would have split it so that you got say 100Mbps and the small exchange 55Mbps (random numbers). This way they can manage the speed.

In short the noise margin and sync speed issues are not linked to your exchange having a satellite exchange.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Meloco65
(regular) Tue 02-Aug-11 13:37:12
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Re: re


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks very much for this!

BT Engineer has fixed everything. Seems as though the wiring wasn't uv protected and causing a lot of issues. Also the main box that everything was coming in to, well I mean there were all sorts of wires wedged in to places and just a mess!

Got a brand new all in one socket with adsl filters already fitted etc. Nice bit of kit! Line sync speed is at a comfortable 1.8mbps, still getting slow speeds but that should pick up after 3 days!

Very happy at the service I have to say and hopefully in the next 3 days everything will be working nicely! Thank-you for all the help in here, very much appreciated as I had no idea what I was doing and now have a better understanding if a fault develops in the future or with a friends house.


just tested laugh:

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1413924733.png

line stats:

ADSL line status
Connection information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 1:07:01
Downstream 3,424 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up) 5.9 dB / 17.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 58.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 18.5 dBm / 11.9 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 11
Loss of Signal (Local) 1
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 69 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 2
Error Seconds (Local) 47

Edited by Meloco65 (Tue 02-Aug-11 17:18:10)

Standard User shtu
(experienced) Wed 03-Aug-11 09:39:35
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Re: re


[re: Meloco65] [link to this post]
 
Glad it's sorted out. Stock advice now is to just leave it alone for a few days and it'll sort itself out.

Don't worry about the number of CRC errors , it's a bug, they all do that guv.
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