Re: BT Yahoo Email Security Upgrade (Error 553)

Why is it not possible / permitted to comment upon the posting about BT Yahoo Email Security Upgrade (Error 553)????????????

Well, you just did, but that post is a sticky for information.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Well, you just did, but that post is a sticky for information.

Not really, it was a new thread that I started.

Of course the name of the game here is MAIL RELAY so it makes a lot of sense to have measured security protocols in place to prevent abuse.The posting makes it appear to be SO straightforward to abide by BTs rules for legitimate users not to be troubled with this issue but is limited to instances where web mail facilities are being used. It is a very different ball game if you are using MS Outlook with your own domain name through BTs SMTP server.

I have had extensive contact with BT over this issue and it boils down to absoutley no problems if the device [desktop/laptop/whatever] remains in the office nor if the said device never goes near the office. The problem is with portable devices that may spend time in the office and at other times elsewhere.

Now I would like to hear from anyone who has a laptop where their email client, say MS Oulook uses their own domain name, and is able to use BTs SMTP servers both in the office and elsewhere without having to reconfigure their setup according to geographical location.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

The posting makes it appear to be SO straightforward to abide by BTs rules for legitimate users not to be troubled with this issue but is limited to instances where web mail facilities are being used.

No it isn't! Quite the reverse! When you are using SMTP you are not using Webmail; you are using some mail client from your PC.

I read that sticky to say you need to perform a one-off WebMail operation to register a non-BT addy prior to using that addy to send via BT's SMTP from a mail client any time in the future.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

The posting makes it appear to be SO straightforward to abide by BTs rules for legitimate users not to be troubled with this issue but is limited to instances where web mail facilities are being used.

No it isn't! Quite the reverse! When you are using SMTP you are not using Webmail; you are using some mail client from your PC.

I read that sticky to say you need to perform a one-off WebMail operation to register a non-BT addy prior to using that addy to send via BT's SMTP from a mail client any time in the future.

Paragraph 1 - Yes I fully understand that.

Paragraph 2 - Clearly you have never been through the process of registering your own domain name so that you are entitled to use BTs SMTP server[s] with an email client. My view is that the notes only apply if using web-mail. My experience was that it took three days to provide the facility and then there was a different setup depending on whether you were connect to broadband at home or another geographical location which might be connected to a broadband service provided by another provider.

If you have a laptop user who is not tech savvy, he really screws up the settings so that nothing works.

Yes you can use the SMTP server provided by the domain provider but such servers tend to have a poor reputation thus preventing emails from being delivered.

BTs less than helpful response was to use Office360 but been there, read the book etc. No thank you, I like to be in charge of my own destiny!

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Yes you can use the SMTP server provided by the domain provider but such servers tend to have a poor reputation thus preventing emails from being delivered.

Only if you use a cheap as possible provider. Decent providers are much more reliable than many ISP services.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Decent providers are much more reliable than many ISP services.

Unfair denigration of ISP email services. Never had an unsent/undelivered msg from various ISP's SMTPs; Orange, O2, AOL Tiscali/TT to name a few + non-ISPs Hotmail & GMail.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Yes you can use the SMTP server provided by the domain provider but such servers tend to have a poor reputation thus preventing emails from being delivered.

Only if you use a cheap as possible provider. Decent providers are much more reliable than many ISP services.

Interesting your comment, but without listing your thoughts on the top notch hosting providers I can't determine whether it is factually correct. It remains my belief that a continuing high reputation is only actually possible if a single domain is hosted on your own IP address. Anything else is pure luck that doesn't see a reputation downgraded even if it is for a short while.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

It remains my belief that a continuing high reputation is only actually possible if a single domain is hosted on your own IP address. Anything else is pure luck that doesn't see a reputation downgraded even if it is for a short while.

?
You've lost me there. Your ISP hosts rather a large number of domains, and may even out-source the service. (In your case, so far as I know Yahoo is completely independent of BT, but could be providing a badged dedicated "BT Yahoo" service. That is still out-sourcing).

I don't see what your IP address has to do with the subject. First, domains are not hosted on your IP address. Second, domains and email servers are different beasties, they don't need to be hosted at the same place. Third, in your particular case, unless you are on a BT Business connection you have a dynamically allocated IP address.

I don't understand the second sentence.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

It remains my belief that a continuing high reputation is only actually possible if a single domain is hosted on your own IP address. Anything else is pure luck that doesn't see a reputation downgraded even if it is for a short while.

?
You've lost me there. Your ISP hosts rather a large number of domains, and may even out-source the service. (In your case, so far as I know Yahoo is completely independent of BT, but could be providing a badged dedicated "BT Yahoo" service. That is still out-sourcing).

I don't see what your IP address has to do with the subject. First, domains are not hosted on your IP address. Second, domains and email servers are different beasties, they don't need to be hosted at the same place. Third, in your particular case, unless you are on a BT Business connection you have a dynamically allocated IP address.

I don't understand the second sentence.

First of all let me say I have a high regard with your knowledge on a whole host of subjects and I can only assume on this occasion that I have not stated my position clearly. So let's try again.

Posting this message is not from the domain in question nor through the same ISP.

My comments relate to a BT Infinity broadband service used in conjunction with web hosting from a company that also handles our domain registration. The web site is on their servers together with the created email addresses. Our domain sits on a server that also hosts in excess of 500 other domains but of course we all share the same IP address.

Now on the email side of things POP3 points to the hosting providers server but for SMTP facilities it was strongly recommended that the ISPs SMTP server is used. The ISPs SMTP server, especially if it is BT, will always have a high reputation whereas the hosting provider's server will frequently, or permanently, have a low reputation, it all depends on what the other domain users on the same IP are up to.

For the record, it is a BT Business connection with a fixed IP provided as there is a need for home workers to access facilities in the office. These home workers have a laptop which they will bring to the office from time to time. It is our choice to use MS Outlook on those machines. The staff numbers do not warrant, nor is it affordable, to use a server.

If we use BTs SMTP server we are frustrated to find that the email client's configuration is different depending whether the laptop is in the office or used at home. I would stress this is BTs way opf doing things and is not the same as other ISPs approach which is through authentication which works no matter where you are geographically located or the ISP used.

If we use the hosting providers SMTP server the above issues do not surface but almost certainly that server's IP address will have a low reputation resulting in our emails being rejected in a number of cases. There as absolutely nothing we, or the hosting provider, can do about this low reputation.

Now I am pretty sure that other BT Infinity users must have been presented with this problem and I am interested to learn if they have found a solution. Hosting facilities are costing us an arm and a leg so we have not gone for a "cheap as chips" provider. Personally I am surprised that BT can't, or won't, offer a solution to this problem.

RobertOS response just muddies the water and introduces statements which IMHO are quite unrelated. But I could be wrong, after all I am just an end user struggling to get the best for other staff members.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

If we use BTs SMTP server we are frustrated to find that the email client's configuration is different depending whether the laptop is in the office or used at home.

Can you explain in what way it is different?

OP means that for a particular account, that of his hosted email addy, in his email client the Outgoing Server is set to BT's SMTP so that it works at work (on BT ISP). But at home it does not work cuz the employees are on a diff ISPs and so needs to be changed.

This is not unusual for many ISPs cuz they don't all provide non- port 25 authenticated SMTPs.

I think this was the whole point of OP's long diatribe.

EDIT: I misunderstood that BT was the ISP at work not home.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 08-Jun-12 15:17:59)

Far TMI for the point raised!

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

If we use BTs SMTP server we are frustrated to find that the email client's configuration is different depending whether the laptop is in the office or used at home. I would stress this is BTs way of doing things and is not the same as other ISPs approach which is through authentication which works no matter where you are geographically located or the ISP used.

Not true! Not all ISPs provide non-port 25 authenticated SMTPs. O2 and Orange present the same dilemma.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Now I am pretty sure that other BT Infinity users must have been presented with this problem and I am interested to learn if they have found a solution.

Simples! Set up 2 almost identical accounts in your email client for your hosted email addy:

• My Domain @ Work with Outgoing Server = BT's SMTP
• My Domain @ Home with Outgoing Server = Home's SMTP

EDIT: I misunderstood that BT was the ISP at work not home.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 08-Jun-12 15:45:34)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

OP means that for a particular account, that of his hosted email addy, in his email client the Outgoing Server is set to BT's SMTP so that it works at home (on BT ISP). But at work it does not work cuz they are on a diff ISP and so needs to be changed.

This is not unusual for many ISPs cuz they don't all provide non- port 25 authenticated SMTPs.

I think this was the whole point of OP's long diatribe.

Can't be that. BT provide authenticated SMTP servers.
http://btbusiness.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_...

But the point is that if the authenticated SMTP is still on port 25 many other ISPs will still block it. That article says nowt about changing port #.

587 can be used

Good! Where's it say that?

If that's the case it gets over all OP's objections.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 08-Jun-12 14:07:46)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

If we use BTs SMTP server we are frustrated to find that the email client's configuration is different depending whether the laptop is in the office or used at home.

Can you explain in what way it is different?

Yes I can but first just an observation that I am buried with BTs logon accounts [all have the same password] which are:
Network username [Entered in router]: [email protected]
BT Business account: [email protected]
BT Openzone username: [email protected]
Authentication username: [email protected]

For the desktops we used the POP3 server name and password provided by the hosting supplier and for SMTP, mail.btconnect.com was used. That's it, job done for the desktops in the office and everything works fine

Turning to the laptops used at various homes, the ISP is not BT in every case. The POP3 and SMTP is set up as the office desktops but in addition authentication is required for SMTP. This information is provided by BT once you have established your credentials and made changes to the CNAME records. Carry out everything to the letter and everything works fine no matter where you go except in the office where you quickly discover you can't send out emails unless the authentication details are removed.

To me it's quite illogical and frustrating that the settings can't remain the same for the office and at home so my solution was to use the hosting provider's SMTP settings, but them we hit the poor reputation problem.

I emailed BT saying this was not a satisfactory arrangement especially for less technically confident end users to adjust their settings depending on geographical location.

The response I got back was: "Unfortunately there is no other way to use mail relay. When you are on-site you cant have authentication on and when you are off site you need authentication on if this option was to be removed then that could lead to abuse of our mail server this is the only way we can keep this secure."

O dear, so it's tough luck on us. I have yet to discover what the situation would be when connected to BT Openzone; not another setup surely?

BTW, to use BTs SMTP server at all [with our domain name], we had to furnish our whois information to prove we owned that domain name and our hosting provider had to make some CNAME changes, all in all it was four days before it was all sorted. Not the simple or quick task that has been suggested elsewhere.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Turning to the laptops used at various homes, the ISP is not BT in every case. The POP3 and SMTP is set up as the office desktops but in addition authentication is required for SMTP. This information is provided by BT once you have established your credentials and made changes to the CNAME records. Carry out everything to the letter and everything works fine no matter where you go except in the office where you quickly discover you can't send out emails unless the authentication details are removed.

Try sending mail using port 587 as discussed with my good friend in this thread. The is the Authenticated SMTP port instead of Port 25 which the SMTP server uses without authentication.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Turning to the laptops used at various homes, the ISP is not BT in every case. The POP3 and SMTP is set up as the office desktops but in addition authentication is required for SMTP. This information is provided by BT once you have established your credentials and made changes to the CNAME records. Carry out everything to the letter and everything works fine no matter where you go except in the office where you quickly discover you can't send out emails unless the authentication details are removed.

Try sending mail using port 587 as discussed with my good friend in this thread. The is the Authenticated SMTP port instead of Port 25 which the SMTP server uses without authentication.

Very detailed instructions were given by the Customer Service Advisor of the
Technical Ownership Unit on setting up MS Outlook to use BTs SMTP server with our own domain email address. Nothing there to say the port number should be something different. Sadly I won't be in the office until Monday but will let you know if 587 is the answer to our prayers next week.

Well if it doesn't work, please post as much detail as possible about the errors returned. Is it returning error 553?

(I hadn't realised that by "bad reputation" you apparently meant spam blacklisting. I thought you just meant having a tendency to fall over and be generally unreliable ).

XRaySpeX made a suggestion earlier which isn't suitable for what you want. This one:-

Simples! Set up 2 almost identical accounts in your email client for your hosted email addy:
My Domain @ Work with Outgoing Server = BT's SMTP
My Domain @ Home with Outgoing Server = Home's SMTP

I believe he has hit the right principle. In the email client you set up two almost identical accounts, one for work use with the appropriate settings, and one for outside use with the different ones.

When sending or replying to emails you then get a choice of sending account to use. I would have thought that, (unless these laptops are for work use only), they already have this happening, with a choice between the work and personal accounts.

Amongst others, here I have four client accounts on the same email address, so that we can easily specify the sender.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

XRaySpeX made a suggestion earlier which isn't suitable for what you want.

Eh! You mean it's entirely suitable?

No, because your second "account" I understood to use the Home ISP's SMTP. He wants to use the BT SMTP. Otherwise yes .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

He wants to use the BT SMTP.

He may have wanted to use BT SMTP from home, but at the time of writing, he had never found a non-port 25 BT SMTP and the only port 25 BT SMTP that he was aware of would be blocked at home by many ISPs, and so was unusable at home.

Therefore my suggestion is the only workable solution on all home ISPs whether or not a non-port 25 BT SMTP is ascertained.

Of course now, if a non-port 25 authenticated BT SMTP can be verified, as BatBoy suggests but has yet to confirm as official from BT and not just some Goggle rumour, then you would only need 1 a/c in mail client utilising this non-port 25 BT SMTP both home and away.

I note that in your post, despite criticising my eminently suitable method, you do not actually specify the settings other than being a generalisation of my specifics.

It's easy to confirm: telnet mail.btconnect.com 587

Anyway, the problem he explained is using auth-smtp on port 25 in the office. It's all working at home.

Still no proof!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

telnet mail.btconnect.com 587

Fails!

Whereas 'telnet smtp.live.com 587' connects OK, so it can't be Orange blocking port 587.

Do you really think you should have access to the BT business email server?

Well, yes, at this initial TELNET level.

Until I attempt to authenticate it won't know I'm me and not an authorised user . TELNET does not use cookies to remember PCs/users.

As confirmation, I'm not an authorised user of UCLMail (on port 26), but can successfully enter the greeting stage of 'telnet mail.uclmail.net 26'.

what about mail.btinternet.com ?

What about it?

I already told you that TELNET to it failed, whereas TELNET to UCLMail SMTP, where I am also unauthorised, connected OK.

Please expand your cryptic remarks to something more communicative.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean

Turning to the laptops used at various homes, the ISP is not BT in every case. The POP3 and SMTP is set up as the office desktops but in addition authentication is required for SMTP. This information is provided by BT once you have established your credentials and made changes to the CNAME records. Carry out everything to the letter and everything works fine no matter where you go except in the office where you quickly discover you can't send out emails unless the authentication details are removed.

To me it's quite illogical and frustrating that the settings can't remain the same for the office and at home so my solution was to use the hosting provider's SMTP settings, but them we hit the poor reputation problem.

Home ISP blocking port 25 doesn't seem to be a problem in this case.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Home ISP blocking port 25 doesn't seem to be a problem in this case.

Sorry, OP's description make it difficult, for me at least, to see the wood for the tress and identify the actual issue he has.

As I see it, his firm has a # of homeworkers, who live in diff homes and are supplied by a raft of ISPs. Surely, by the law of averages, some of these ISPs will block all foreign port 25 SMTPs, thereby nullifying the use of any port 25 BT SMTP, whether authenticated or not. For example, any homeworker using O2 or Orange, amongst others, as ISP would not be able to to use the BT SMTP both at home and in the office.

Therefore, my solution, applied individually for each homeworker, will work in all cases w/out any need to re-configure anything once it has been set.

While your solution is a good one and will work, you are ignoring 2 things the OP said:
1. It works at home but not in the office.
2. It should work in both without changing any settings.

It seems that BT Business are migrating the email over to Office 365 and the new mail server is smtp.outlook.com. It may be that the OP problems are due to this migration.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

you are ignoring 2 things the OP said:
1. It works at home but not in the office.

That's cuz he set up only 1 mail client a/c configured for Home. Had he set it up configured for Office, it would not have worked at Home. His problem cannot be resolved with just 1 a/c.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

2. It should work in both without changing any settings.

My solution does just that; that's its whole point!

The only mention of port 587 SMTP, that you proposed, on the official BT site were in conjunction with Office 365 wherever it stated:

Note: These settings only apply to Microsoft Office 365 customers.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

you are ignoring 2 things the OP said:
1. It works at home but not in the office.

That's cuz he set up only 1 mail client a/c configured for Home. Had he set it up configured for Office, it would not have worked at Home. His problem cannot be resolved with just 1 a/c.

It can, by using auth-smtp

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

2. It should work in both without changing any settings.

My solution does just that; that's its whole point!

Having 2 accounts is changing settings

Problem solved!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It's easy to confirm: telnet mail.btconnect.com 587

You confused the wrong server with that port.

It's 'telnet smtp.outlook.com 587' that connects OK. All to do with Microsoft Office 365.

Out of curiosity, what is "auth-smtp"? Please spell it out and don't just say authenticated SMTP, cuz that is what he is using.

http://bit.ly/Mm37sg

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Problem solved!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It's easy to confirm: telnet mail.btconnect.com 587

You confused the wrong server with that port.

It's 'telnet smtp.outlook.com 587' that connects OK. All to do with Microsoft Office 365.

As I said

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It seems that BT Business are migrating the email over to Office 365 and the new mail server is smtp.outlook.com.

The fact remains that he doesn't seem to have a port 25 issue witht the "home" ISPs, (I agree that that is surprising), and specifically said he wishes to use the BT SMTP servers both at work and "home"

Now I would like to hear from anyone who has a laptop where their email client, say MS Oulook uses their own domain name, and is able to use BTs SMTP servers both in the office and elsewhere ....

Which your solution does not achieve, but your idea when modified as I did does. Until he hits a port 25 block.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Having 2 accounts is changing settings

Not really, given all he wishes to do is avoid the users having to modify parameters. Selecting the account to send from hardly falls into the technical or complex category. If they select the wrong one it will simply fail to send and they then select the other.

So, you write an email and try to send it from the wrong account - what happens?
Does it say "send failed"?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The fact remains that he doesn't seem to have a port 25 issue with the "home" ISPs, (I agree that that is surprising)

True, but I'm trying to provide a general future-proofed solution, that will cater for a homeworker joining the office whose home ISP is O2 or Orange et al.

but your idea when modified as I did does.

What is your mod to my idea? I don;t see it!

Or do you just mean have 1 a/c with authenticated BT SMTP for Home and other with UNauthenticated BT SMTP for Office? In that case it does not meet my criterion of future-proofing .

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Or do you just mean have 1 a/c with authenticated BT SMTP for Home and other with UNauthenticated BT SMTP for Office? In that case it does not meet my criterion of future-proofing .

Is this the first time you mentioned future-proofing?

It's implicit in my aim to cater for port 25 blocking ISPs as stated when I first propounded my solution, for those who understand logic.

Are there any more criteria you haven't mentioned?

Only the obvious one that it should work in all situations.

It's just that I think it's important to consider the OP's criteria rather than your own.

Fizzled out?

Clang Clang Clang went the Trolley!

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Fizzled out?

Clang Clang Clang went the Trolley!

I am afraid the trolleybus booms became dewired and bent. I had to wait for the repair crew to get me going. A trolleybus is completely silent, you are confusing it with a tram of the 1950s.

Now down to business and to state our setup. BT Business Infinity 80/20 using our own router [DrayTek 2820Vn]. Fixed IP. It is a peer to peer network in the office and it is our choice is to use an email client, Outlook 2010. We have our own domain name.There are four staff members with one desktop and three laptops used by sales staff when in the office or out and about.

Now if we were to use BTs SMTP server with our own domain email addresses then authentication is required away from the office but when connected to the office LAN no authentication is required. Messing around with port numbers doesn't alter that requirement. All solutions offered in this thread are hardly transparent and while everybody here would find no difficulty in remembering to have authentication on or off depending on where they are, that is not something welcomed by our end users. When under pressure to complete a task the last thing they want is error messages popping up because the wrong settings have been used.

The plain fact is that BT is not supporting small business users with their own domain name email addresses to work transparently no matter how they are connected to the Internet, whether that is in the office, at home or on a client's site.

My solution was to turn the problem on its head and use the authentication service of the end user's home ISP. For the moment that works fine which means as and when those end users have FTTC available, then BT Infinity won't be the ISP to run with. The alternative ISPs router would probably allow us to use Sure Signal, something that eludes us with the present setup in the office.

It's a US song from a 40s musical and refers a St. Louis tram

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

My solution was to turn the problem on its head and use the authentication service of the end user's home ISP.

Good idea! As long as all home ISPs provide an authenticated SMTP and do not behave (wrt authentication setting) like the BT one.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 14-Jun-12 15:35:25)