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Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Thu 20-Mar-14 09:07:10
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R.E.I.N (thanks to Mr Saffron for correcting me!)


[link to this post]
 
All

Has anyone had to have one of these done by BT and do you know how long it takes for one to be instigated?

I have been told it takes "some time" as REIN engineers seem to be few and far between, but am wondering how long?

Many thanks in advance

PS I am with PlusNet and have also posted there but have only duplicated as a generic question of OpenReach

Edited by ismoore999 (Thu 20-Mar-14 09:46:07)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 20-Mar-14 09:26:53
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
REIN - Random Electrical Impulse Noise

How long is a piece of string? Alas with this sort of investigation it can be obvious within 30 seconds or might take weeks to find if their really is interference impacting.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Thu 20-Mar-14 09:48:19
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thank you for that - it was the answer I most feared smile (grin and bear it)

Well it is consistent - starts around 17:10 every night and goes on until the morning.
Only affects fibre so I am hoping that narrows it down to about 400m!

I'll keep my fingers crossed it is short string....

Edited by ismoore999 (Thu 20-Mar-14 09:49:22)


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Standard User H10ELD
(newbie) Thu 20-Mar-14 10:01:55
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
I agree with Andrerw, it can take months.
I started having REIN problems in September 2013 when new neighbours moved in next door.
Openreach have been investigated the problem since then and as it is random, but usually between 6 an 11pm. They have to have overtime authorisating to come out in the evening or weekend.
There seems to be only 2 engineers in the South West who specialize in REIN and a long wait for them is the norm.
I had a third visit this week from Openreach REIN "engineer" at 7pm and he said he had found the problem but was not at liberty to tell where and what it was, but it was not in my house. The main point is that they can ONLY ASK that the offending equipment is turned off, they do not authority to take action.
So it is a problem that may never be solved if the offending parry refuse to co-operate.
Standard User insider12
(newbie) Thu 20-Mar-14 10:37:27
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ismoore999:
Thank you for that - it was the answer I most feared smile (grin and bear it)

Well it is consistent - starts around 17:10 every night and goes on until the morning.
Only affects fibre so I am hoping that narrows it down to about 400m!

I'll keep my fingers crossed it is short string....


REIN does not affect fibre, it only affects copper lines. The reason is thats its caused by electrical interferance that can scramble the bits on a copper line, however fibre using light and is unaffected by REIN. More than likely if your on FTTC, any potential issue is on the copper run from the PCP to your property, not between PCP (cab) and exchange.

All BT engineers are now REIN trained, in the past it used to be a nightmare to get a REIN engineer but BT OR now used dedicated REIN co-op teams that any SFI can call into.
Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Thu 20-Mar-14 10:40:36
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: H10ELD] [link to this post]
 
Hi
Thanks for that - this sounds pretty much like the same issue but luckily it starts earlier during working hours.

Question is, would Virgin Media cable be affected in a similar way if it was found to be localised? I assume that because it is Coax it is less suseptible to noise.

I am only asking becase this is an option for me.

The fibre connection does eventually calm down but usually when it is capped to around 15-20Mb

Decisions decisions. Any thougths grateful.... and disclaimers allowed smile
Standard User insider12
(newbie) Thu 20-Mar-14 10:47:32
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ismoore999:
Hi
Thanks for that - this sounds pretty much like the same issue but luckily it starts earlier during working hours.

Question is, would Virgin Media cable be affected in a similar way if it was found to be localised? I assume that because it is Coax it is less suseptible to noise.

I am only asking becase this is an option for me.

The fibre connection does eventually calm down but usually when it is capped to around 15-20Mb

Decisions decisions. Any thougths grateful.... and disclaimers allowed smile


depends on the issue and where it is. REIN is caused by equipment having unusual electro magnetic fields which affect the tranmission of data on copper cable or directly on electrical equipment if within the offending field. If the source of the REIN is on your property and hitting the router directly it will affect any connection. However this is unlikely most commonly the sources are in the path from the local cab, usually offenders are items like CCTV monitors, Lamp posts with damaged circiutry, tube lighting, etc.

Easiest way is to test yourself, get a analogue radio and tune to 612Khz, if you move it near a object with emitting REIN, you will hear a loud static crackle. Easy to do in your home, not so much in someone elses smile

CCNA, CCNP, MTA.
Virgin Media 60Mbps
ISP networking and WiFi Engineer.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 20-Mar-14 11:11:11
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: insider12] [link to this post]
 
For a FTTC based service it may also be worth listening for pops and crackles in the 1 to 3 MHz region too

Switching the standard RJ11 lead for a twisted pair one might help reduce the pick of the noise. That is assuming the VDSL2 faceplate is wired in correctly and any chance of bridge taps have already been ruled out.

If it was my house, I'd be switching off everything I could to try and ensure it was not something in my own home too, i.e. flip the fuses for each circuit off and then hunt down the noisy kit with a radio.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Rastus
(committed) Thu 20-Mar-14 11:25:09
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Re: R.E.I.N (thanks to Mr Saffron for correcting me!)


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ismoore999:
PS I am with PlusNet and have also posted there but have only duplicated as a generic question of OpenReach


I hadn't seen this post before I pointed out your mistake on the PN forum wink
Standard User Rastus
(committed) Thu 20-Mar-14 11:26:22
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
REIN - Random Electrical Impulse Noise


Not Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise? wink
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 20-Mar-14 11:28:53
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: Rastus] [link to this post]
 
Maybe a small doh

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 20-Mar-14 14:28:26
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ismoore999:
Well it is consistent - starts around 17:10 every night and goes on until the morning.
Only affects fibre so I am hoping that narrows it down to about 400m!


Only effects fibre ...

Do you know where your FTTC cabinet is and where the original cabinet is located?

If you do go and look at the route between the cabinets. Are there any streetlamps or illuminated road signs along there? There is a distinct possibility that the tie pair between the cabinets is picking up noise.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Ianph
(committed) Thu 20-Mar-14 15:02:36
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Re: R.E.I.N (thanks to Mr Saffron for correcting me!)


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
took 6 months for me on o2 LLU from early to mid 2011

engineer came after 4 "normal" engineers failed to find the reason why my connection dropped every few mins on any snrm upto 15db, o2 were very good with getting engineers and in the end a chap appeared and identified himself as a r.e.i.n engineer and told me he would try and have me up and running again soon, about 3 hours later i got a call saying he had found 5 problems between myself and exchange and were now fixed

i called o2 got a reset to 6db and a sync of 18meg on a 28db attenuation so took a while but was worth the wait in the end smile

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
EE unlimited Fibre 76

72meg sync
EE Brightbox 2 (Ethernet Mode) + Openeach ECI Modem
Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Thu 20-Mar-14 15:43:59
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
HI

Only affects fibre as in I get no noise from phone etc.

Yes the cabinet is quite a distance away - in fact I just traced it and it is 700m.

It is according to one of the engineers a real issue, overloaded, and they are getting a lot of underground issues reported for it. He hated it as he said everytime they fix one problem they risk creating another . Travels underground except for last 30m from pole.
Hence my concern!
Standard User insider12
(newbie) Thu 20-Mar-14 15:49:09
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ismoore999:
Only affects fibre as in I get no noise from phone etc.


as previously stated. REIN cannot affect Fibre.
It can affect the Copper from the cab to your house, not the fibre itself.
Fibre uses light = electrical does not effect light.

CCNA, CCNP, MTA.
Virgin Media 60Mbps
ISP networking and WiFi Engineer.
Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Thu 20-Mar-14 15:50:35
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Andrew

I have tried ruling out most things - central heating, lights etc.
The times definitely don't coincide with anything I have on. but I will try and dig out a radio from somewhere.

Fibre engineer was out on Tuesday with a copper engineer and they found nothing but that was at 15.20 - before the witching hour of 17:10!

I think that from what everyone has said, if I find nothing in the house - VM here I come!
Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Thu 20-Mar-14 16:00:03
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: insider12] [link to this post]
 
Sorry understood that.
I meant it is only affecting the DSL component and not the phone component - the copper from Cabinet to premises - but at ~700m that is quite a distance.
I had issues last year but at the same time as a noisy phone line...

Cheers
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 20-Mar-14 16:45:56
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
If the time drifts later as the days get lighter then issue may just be radio station pickup, rather than local interference. Or someone has a security light that flickers on at that time of day.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User JGO
(newbie) Thu 20-Mar-14 18:53:06
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: insider12] [link to this post]
 
"Easiest way is to test yourself, get a analogue radio and tune to 612Khz, if you move it near a object with emitting REIN, you will hear a loud static crackle. Easy to do in your home, not so much in someone else's smile "

True but just a point - a special case of Murphy's Law !
Impulse noise will have a line spectrum at the repetition rate, BUT it is not a uniform spectrum and it is possible to have a null at 612 kHz ! Thus just to be sure, tune round a bit.
Standard User Rastus
(committed) Thu 20-Mar-14 19:19:42
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Re: REIN


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
I'm not sure if the same can be done with VDSL as for ADSL regarding running a program such as RouterStats (Lite) which can then monitor on/off times for the interference by showing when your SNR margin jumps up or down (or disconnects occur).

I was suffering a fairly severe case of REIN just over a year ago, and by using a combination of RouterStats Lite and an old MW radio I was able to find out where the interference was coming from. In my case my SNR margin was jumping up and down by 6-7dB.

I tracked it down to a nearby house where there was an illegal 'farm' operating. wink
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Thu 20-Mar-14 19:46:13
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: insider12] [link to this post]
 
All BT engineers are now REIN trained,

Complete and utter tosh confused

All SFI engineers are given an 'overview' of the subject, and some are given a hand held radio to use, but this is only of use to suggest that there may be REIN in the area.

Standard User maniac886
(member) Thu 20-Mar-14 19:47:42
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Re: R.E.I.N (thanks to Mr Saffron for correcting me!)


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ismoore999:
All

Has anyone had to have one of these done by BT and do you know how long it takes for one to be instigated?

I have been told it takes "some time" as REIN engineers seem to be few and far between, but am wondering how long?

Many thanks in advance

PS I am with PlusNet and have also posted there but have only duplicated as a generic question of OpenReach


R.E.I.N, my favourite subject, not! I had an issue with R.E.I.N about 3 years ago which caused multiple drop outs to my service as well as my neighbours. It's a long story but involved 8 engineer visits,leaflet drops to my neighbours and walking around my local area with a Nova Pal 3 waveband Direction Finder.

If you have any specific questions I will be happy to answer but what I found is that BT Openreach have a specific set of 'checks' they have to perform before calling out a REIN Engineer, I wish I could say it was a quick process but it's long and drawn out, well it was in my case!

BT Infinity
200m to cabinet
72.15MB/s down / 16.03MB/s up

Edited by maniac886 (Thu 20-Mar-14 19:48:15)

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Thu 20-Mar-14 19:55:07
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
It is according to one of the engineers a real issue, overloaded, and they are getting a lot of underground issues reported for it. He hated it as he said everytime they fix one problem they risk creating another

This sounds more like crosstalk. The engineers are swapping out the pairs, but this just moves the problem nearer to someone else's line. But then you'd expect it to be an issue 24/7 .......

If it's REIN, you need to make sure the engineer knows it's just affecting FTTC services, as the frequencies usually checked may well be clear. The 444 meter also is not able to be retuned. Maybe the funky new JDSU 'paddles' can be, I don't know.

Standard User insider12
(newbie) Fri 21-Mar-14 08:41:08
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
All BT engineers are now REIN trained,

Complete and utter tosh confused

All SFI engineers are given an 'overview' of the subject, and some are given a hand held radio to use, but this is only of use to suggest that there may be REIN in the area.


Thats strange, I deal with around 20-30 SFI's a day and receive the service updates direct from BTW. Been over a year since had a SFI not able to fully investigate REIN with the co-op team. Any requests for REIN engineers are flatly refused pointing to the BT notice regarding this.

In regards to this problem, are you sure its REIN? What has lead you to believe this?
Are you connecting via direct connection or via wireless? It could be over-saturation at peak times.

CCNA, CCNP, MTA.
Virgin Media 60Mbps
ISP networking and WiFi Engineer.
Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Fri 21-Mar-14 10:17:33
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: insider12] [link to this post]
 
The suggestion from support based on this snippit from the connection logs:

Line 49 : 2014-03-18 06:41:32 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 39.8 minutes.
Line 111: 2014-03-18 06:54:30 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 12.3 minutes.
Line 173: 2014-03-18 07:22:38 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 27.6 minutes.
Line 234: 2014-03-18 08:17:05 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 54.0 minutes.
Line 295: 2014-03-18 17:06:50 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 528.5 minutes.
Line 356: 2014-03-18 17:40:53 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 33.6 minutes.
Line 416: 2014-03-18 17:57:53 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 16.5 minutes.
Line 476: 2014-03-18 18:02:19 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 3.7 minutes.
Line 536: 2014-03-18 18:18:56 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 15.7 minutes.
Line 597: 2014-03-18 18:23:45 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 4.2 minutes.
Line 658: 2014-03-18 18:32:09 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 7.6 minutes.
Line 720: 2014-03-18 18:42:30 [Informational] syslog: Connect time 9.7 minutes.


Regular as "clockwork" between 17:00 and 08:30 everyday with disconnects throughout that whole period. It is usual that I get through other times with one or two disconnects

Though I am investigating some other possibilitiies too....
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Fri 21-Mar-14 17:09:46
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: insider12] [link to this post]
 
Trust me, I know. wink

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 21-Mar-14 20:25:13
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Nah! Surely not tongue smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 59.4/14.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 21-Mar-14 20:30:17
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: insider12] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by insider12:
All BT engineers are now REIN trained, in the past it used to be a nightmare to get a REIN engineer but BT OR now used dedicated REIN co-op teams that any SFI can call into.
I think if you look deeper you will find that the vast majority of OR engineers are "informed" to the degree that Zarjaz says, rather than REIN "trained". Your statement in the first clause here would only be true if all OR engineers were SFI trained.

If they were, there would be no such thing as SFI.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 59.4/14.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User ismoore999
(learned) Mon 31-Mar-14 17:56:47
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
So I thought I would give a little update on this.
I have now had two further BT visits - one at 15:00 and one at 13:00! As the issue occurs after 17:00 , then guess what - they found no issue at the time.

The first call out was after another fix to a line fault, which improved things as the frequency of disconnects reduced. The second was arranged by BT after an unexpected Fibre and Phone outage - though BT claim no knowledge of this.

I have explained that this occurs (and is still occurring even with time change) after about 17:15, but everyone is gone by that time.

I have also gone back to the BT modem from the Asus N66U VDSL router I had.
The Asus gives more disconnects and this is being seen as User disconnects - but as I can see the stats, ir usually drops the line after a dramatic increase in CRC errors (several thousand per minute) and (sometimes) a sudden drop in SNR.

The BT modem has a more stable connection but I do notice a huge increase in ping times (several minutes where ping times between 50 and 300ms) for short periods before going back to normal. Could this be a result in the BT modem being more tolerant and not disconnecting? Being a black box I have no idea.
I am also finding periods of lag and buffering so it seems something is still amiss.

ISP has now noted that speed is being capped again so I am slightly forward in so much as using BT modem is reducing the disconnects but the underlying problem is still there.

One fine day I may have an engineer on site at the right time!!
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Wed 02-Apr-14 19:05:08
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Re: R.A.I.N


[re: ismoore999] [link to this post]
 
One fine day I may have an engineer on site at the right time!!

You are going to have to ask your ISP to get an out of hours appointment, for which they/you will have to pay, I'm afraid.

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