BT in trouble, hiring more staff

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/may/19/bt-h...

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-May-14 12:55:46)

I would rather wait 2 or 3 weeks for a fully qualified and experienced OR engineer than have some new recruit or contractor mess with my line. Unfortunately one doesn�t really have a choice but certainly I would opt for a self install vdsl filtered faceplate and modem setup and just hope that the deployed engineer is doing a good job at the cabinets.

6 weeks I've had to wait for my standard ADSL install.

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-May-14 15:17:32)

Gotta wait 3 years before I can even order FTTC

Wonder how much lower the maintenance workload would be if they made a serious attempt to migrate people to FTTP, or at very least offered a viable data-only FTTC product rather than forcing people who don't actually want a POTS line back to the exchange to have one.

Good to see the extra jobs, silly that they are needed because Openreach continue to rinse long copper loops for all they're worth.

What would TalkTalk, Sky etc. do with all their LLU kit?

How do you know it's 3 years?

In reply to a post by somerset:

What would TalkTalk, Sky etc. do with all their LLU kit?

Most of it would still be used - FTTC is no different to FTTP in an exchange.

Please explain. They have DSLAMs in many exchanges, yes, all these would be redundant with FTTC or FTTP. But if they were forced to go FTTx they would not be used straight away.

In reply to a post by somerset:

Please explain. They have DSLAMs in many exchanges, yes, all these would be redundant with FTTC or FTTP. But if they were forced to go FTTx they would not be used straight away.

Most operators with multiple DSLAMs will have multiple gigE switches or 10gigE behind the DSLAMs, so relatively easy to connect to a GEA cablelink from openreach feeding FTTP/FTTC users.

Latest consultation documents between the local parish council and BT. The document lists the cabs that are in scope and the cabs that aren't, mine isn't in scope for this round, so proposed date is 2017 - assuming there's funding in 2017

Edited by fredfox (Mon 19-May-14 22:56:59)

Best of luck with the AM slot - will you be needing a CAT5 extension for the modem also?

Urm how have you got a connection voucher but no one willing to sell it to you?

To get the superconnected city vouchers you have to present a quote from a firm to supply a connection?

Or is this some other voucher scheme.

Could always pay for an expedited install if the strain of waiting is too much. Alas you have to order that up front, and cannot retrospectively add it.

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

I still can;'t find anyone who wants to sell me a FTTP line. ...

Probably because you're not in a FTTP area. Remember this thread which you started which explained the difference to you between native FTTP and FTTPoD which is what you have available to you as you are in a FTTC area.

I can't see why BT won't sell you FTTPoD if your pockets are deep enough as you appear to claim.

Edited by Rastus (Tue 20-May-14 12:37:30)

The website says

All you have to do is send us one quote from a registered supplier and complete a simple application form.

So you should have got a quote for FTTPoD before being granted a voucher.

But FTTPoD is still only available at a limited number of exchange and I don't know if pcoventry's is one of those. I know it is not available on my exchange yet.

It is

So as you say at least BT retail/business ought to be able to quote for FTTPoD at the very least.

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

I don't think so. I did choose the extension kit just incase but my phone line is around a foot from my PC and I have a table ready for the phone and modem to go on. Which will be right next to the HG612 or whatever it is.

That's good so if you do happen to get a contractor they wont be messing with your internal wiring. If they do fit an interstitial plate and NTE5 faceplate be sure to keep the old filtered faceplate if you had one...or keep the interstitial plate if they use an existing filtered faceplate plus the extension kit since it was part of your order.

You would have to find someone who wanted to provide you the service and had quoted you on it, having done the necessary checks on install charges. Receiving a quote from a supplier, of which there are many serving Newport, is a prerequisite.

Obviously these guys would have their own standards also, it costs them money to quote and credit checks, etc, would be required for a long contract as I'm sure you could imagine being a businessman.

FYI The limit on the scheme is £3000. Odds of getting 330/30 business grade for £200 a month are slim. At that price bracket it's generally using FTTPoD as a leased-line replacement at 30Mb/s symmetrical or similar. Demonstrating that 330Mb over 80Mb/20Mb is a legitimate business expense problematic too. I have 2 lines here but only one that gets expensed for obvious reasons.

Which city scheme and which exact providers have you contacted?

Virgin Media does not do Fibre on Demand, and one presumes you have confirmed that FoD (Fibre on Demand) is showing as an option for your individual telephone line?

Edited by deleted (Tue 20-May-14 14:44:39)

Edited by deleted (Tue 20-May-14 14:52:29)

Okay that is the generic site and which city is important as some providers offer different services in different cities,

Zen do not appear to list Fibre on Demand but others do including

http://www.just2connect.com/
http://www.silverlinings.eu/
http://www.unitel.co.uk/
http://www.tptele.com/broadband/connection-vouchers....
http://www.brigantia.com/
http://www.resourcetelecomgroup.com/
http://www.abcnet.co.uk/
http://www.fluidata.co.uk/
http://www.itcs.co.uk/

In fact it crops up over 100 times in the supplier list

Edited by deleted (Tue 20-May-14 15:00:56)

For those areas where fibre on demand is the FTTP option, then there is only one speed available 330/30, the other GEA-FTTP speed points are not available.

Are you talking to the business or consumer division in BT?

BECAUSE 160/20 IS NOT AN OPTION UNDER THE FIBRE ON DEMAND PROGRAMME.

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

I am literally sat with my back to the current socket - which is this.

http://prntscr.com/3kx6wf an NTE5? I have my phone plugged in ready but it's dead at the moment.

That's fine - they should hopefully just fit an interstitial plate (which goes between the original faceplate and the NTE5 itself) or a filtered faceplate for your FTTC connection

Caps was for emphasis as believe it has been explained before that Fibre on Demand behaves differently to native FTTP when browsing around providers websites and will also never be seen on the consumer focused pages due to the 36 month minimum contract term.

Ofcom has a 24 month maximum limit for consumers.

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

Will they also put the BT modem near this socket? The wall is just right for it so I am hoping so

Should be OK - guess there are a 3 pin 13 amp sockets nearby?

Edited by deleted (Tue 20-May-14 15:49:00)

Your situation falls outside the automated systems, you need to phone up and speak to your business manager at BT Business to discuss the provision of Fibre on Demand

Fibre on Demand is not the sort of product you order online since there are lots of questions to be asked and discussed about the actual service you want.

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

Yes there are 2 below on the skirting board. I don't use the phone so I only need 2.

Sounds like you are "good to go" for vdsl FTTC

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Sounds like you are "good to go" for vdsl FTTC

Sure hope so. I am not going to cancel this one I wish I had not cancelled BT or else I'd be on it now but only for the connection. I AM glad I did for the service I would have got which was mediocre at best.

5 working days and counting

Just noticed that BT are doing a self install option, probably not of interest to you since you are probably in the office during the day nor fond of BT?

1600 more staff, the TBB news story made it out to be related to the rollout (tbb shown mercy?), I didnt know about this thread until someone posted in the general broadband section.

I have always said if openreach were to actually fix all faults instead of pretending they dont exist and also do it in a timely manner they would be in trouble, as I imagine their costs would sky rocket, their profits seem to be related to their faults management.

Of course they can still pass of faults as a non fault, but it seems now they been told to stop hanging around on diagnosed faults and hence this recruitment drive, so basically they were undermanned by 1600 engineers and have got away with it for a number of years.

The question is now, where will this cost get passed onto? the shareholders wont eat it, are we to see higher callout fees, higher install charges?

Edited by Chrysalis (Tue 20-May-14 16:23:39)

Demands on the system are undoubtedly rising: I was just chatting to a Sky TV installer and he was saying that they no longer connect the Sky box to the phone line on most new/upgraded installations but via ethernet to the end user's router (not just those on Sky broadband but to any user's broadband provider.)

Plusnet don't issue HH5.

I thought you may have forgotten who you've ordered with

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Plusnet don't issue HH5.

Good thing we were on about BT then...

Think I prefer separate modems and routers - gives one the opportunity to have the modem at the NTE5 and the router linked over ethernet in another location within the property. Probably not relevant to your office setup though

The TP-Link should be better than Plusnet's Speedtouch effort.

Edited by deleted (Tue 20-May-14 18:58:21)

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

I totally agree. I have a tp-link waiting to be connected.

I've got a TP-Link 5 port gigabit switch and it's pretty good on the LAN - however I'm on ADSL2+ with a 100Mbps router so I only see the benefits when transferring files over the LAN.

Sounds like you're in the same boat as me then. Exchange with <800 properties and not in any rollout plans.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

The question is now, where will this cost get passed onto? the shareholders wont eat it, are we to see higher callout fees, higher install charges?

Very likely ... people are demanding cheaper and cheaper broadband access and cheaper phone lines. To get that BT has to cut costs, hence off-shoring support services, providing just basic routers, minimising staff numbers so that they are 110% employed. A few years back, BT would give a very rapid turn around for faults and they achieved that because teh technicians were only 85% utilised and could be mobilised rapidly keeping wait times down.

Rapid response costs money - so users will need to pay, whether that is directly to BT or through their ISPs and as OFCOM have demanded te changes, BTs cost base will increase and OFCOM will have to allow the costs t be passed on.

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

This is why things like Enchanced Care are a good idea.

Do you have it and if so, who is your telephone provider?

Edited by deleted (Wed 21-May-14 10:26:30)

I have one of the priority care packages on my Infinity service - cannot remember exactly which. Service is delivered across my residential phone line. The advantage is that if my phone line fails, it is likely to affect Infinity so I get "free" coverage of that too.

For FTTC - the DSLAMs or MSANs are the street side cabinets. These are owned, operated and maintained by Openreach.

The fibre from the cabinet (or for FTTP from someone's house) is connected to a OLT (optical line termination) card in the exchange. LLU ISPs then pay Openreach to connect their backhauls to the Openreach NGA networks via a layer 2 switch (in Openreach lingo it's known as the GEA Cablelink). BT Wholesale also pay Openreach to link up their 21CN network to the Openreach NGA at all exchanges via the same GEA Cablelink.

LLU ISPs don't use their DSLAMs for FTTx - they are essentially paying Openreach for access to its network.

For ADSL and unbundled voice, it's a different story.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I have one of the priority care packages on my Infinity service - cannot remember exactly which. Service is delivered across my residential phone line. The advantage is that if my phone line fails, it is likely to affect Infinity so I get "free" coverage of that too.

I don't think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here. Have a look at
http://business.bt.com/phone-services/bt-totalcare/ where we can see that it relates to voice services only. True if voice services are lost then it might impact on the broadband service but it has been reported many times on TBB that the broadband service has continued even though no voice service was available.

So turning this on its head, let us assume the broadband service has gone down but voice is still available. You may well have Total or Critical Care but as far as I can see this does not give you any kind of priority attention to restore your broadband service; even more so if your voice and broadband service is delivered by two different suppliers.

But sticking with the same supplier with a single line for both voice and broadband, I don't know of any ISP who will give a priority fix service, for an additional fee, if just your broadband service goes down when you still have a voice service. I stand corrected on that though.

So you fall back on your business interruption plan which may mean going to a different geographical location or invoking your business interruption insurance. If you are in the minority that has a duplicate broadband service, with physical different paths back to the exchange, then I suppose you are covered for some eventualities like fire, flood or worse like the area being sealed off due to a suspect package.

You make a risk assessment and have a plan according to your budget.

"some" people are demanding lower prices.

its an assumption by marketing everyone wants that.

in regards to what ofcom have to do.

Alternatively BT's shareholders can eat it and there is no problem, they are perhaps a bit greedy?

There is something very wrong within BT in how much much it needs to spend to rollout technology, how much it needs to charge for engineer visits, how much it needs to charge for backhaul, and yet it has had to be fold to get its act together on fault turnaround.

I agree ofcom's obsession with low cost broadband is excessive, but BT arent blameless.

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 21-May-14 20:16:05)

MHC has Business Broadband Infinity, which does have priority fixing.

As line faults and broadband problems often go hand in hand, what he is saying is that most line issues will get fixed in the course of fixing the broadband ones.

Your citing of broadband connections working when the phone doesn't is spurious. The broadband in such cases is severely downgraded. The cause of this scenario is one wire of the pair becoming disconnected somewhere. His cover level on the Business Infinity would come into play.

Correct ...

And when we needed it, BT pulled out all the stops they could and had a team on site at 5:00 AM on a Saturday morning.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

MHC has Business Broadband Infinity, which does have priority fixing.

As line faults and broadband problems often go hand in hand, what he is saying is that most line issues will get fixed in the course of fixing the broadband ones.

Your citing of broadband connections working when the phone doesn't is spurious. The broadband in such cases is severely downgraded. The cause of this scenario is one wire of the pair becoming disconnected somewhere. His cover level on the Business Infinity would come into play.

Also noted was MHC reply but it was not stated if the fault was with voice or broadband. Neither was the wait period for action stated but turning up in the early hours of Saturday morning is within BTs Prompt Care scheme promise.

I too have BT Infinity. A check with BT revealed that my cover is Critical Care on the exchange line and Prompt Care on the broadband service. My enquiry brought forward an offer of a 2 year fixed price contract for that telephone line of £14.20 per month. Interesting it was a fixed price contract, usually there are price rises even when in contract. I was reminded that the line rental will go up in August by a £1 [taking it to £19] - is this unwelcomed increase to pay for more engineering staff or for propping up BT Sport?

Line faults can indeed degrade the broadband service, so fixing the former has expectations of returning the broadband service back to its earlier operating status, but it doesn't always happens that way. Lots of moans about that have appeared on TBB. Also ,there have been instances quoted on TBB where the voice service has been lost [cut off?] and yet the broadband service continued to work perfectly for a considerable period of time. I therefore reject RobertoS claim that my observations were "spurious".

That aside, I am not sure that every ISP will offer an enhanced care service for either the exchange line and/or broadband service equivalent to BTs Critical and Prompt care schemes. As PlusNet are bedfellows with BT, they appear to offer some kind of similar cover to BT but exactly what that is I don't know. An enquiry to Zen revealed that only Standard Care was available. As broadband services for business becomes more "mission critical", then discovering that enhanced care of some sort is simply not available means greater care is needed in selecting an ISP.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

An enquiry to Zen revealed that only Standard Care was available. As broadband services for business becomes more "mission critical", then discovering that enhanced care of some sort is simply not available means greater care is needed in selecting an ISP.

[cough]
I really do think you are getting very mixed up between Residential and Business services. Zen Enhanced Care.

If you are using Residential broadband for a business that is highly internet dependent, then it's time you upgraded. Possibly also have a standby service.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

An enquiry to Zen revealed that only Standard Care was available. As broadband services for business becomes more "mission critical", then discovering that enhanced care of some sort is simply not available means greater care is needed in selecting an ISP.

[cough]
I really do think you are getting very mixed up between Residential and Business services. Zen Enhanced Care.

If you are using Residential broadband for a business that is highly internet dependent, then it's time you upgraded. Possibly also have a standby service.

Assumptions made in this response. My statements were always relating to business grade services. Because you have found references to Enhanced Care for business users offered by Zen is only indicative of the poor quality response given to me through a phone enquiry on upgrading an existing service with that company some time ago. It could be that this service is now offered, whereas at the time of my enquiry, it wasn't.

A standby service through a second landline service could just be an illusion since it is highly likely that the routing will be the through the same cable[s] providing the primary service. A wireless [4G, if at all possible] or radio connection alternative, would be more advantageous but whatever is used, it can often double your monthly connection costs whereas Critical Care on the primary service would be more cost effective and, IMHO, a better solution.

A business user needs to make a risk assessment of what is most appropriate for them related to what is affordable. For some it could be a lot cheaper to go to an alternative location while the fault persists. And for others, there is merit in using a residential grade service for business purposes and using wireless when ever the broadband service is down. Lots of other permutations to keep the "lights on" exist. Horses for course I would say and certainly one size, or solution, doesn't apply everywhere.

Since I have negatively spoken about Zen and their "Care" programs, I thought it only right to acknowledge their recent new product that has hit the market place:
http://www.zen.co.uk/blog/introducing-new-premium-fi...
Being a long URL, I provide this as an alternative:
http://tiny.cc/zencare

Price wise it appears to be quite a bit more than an equivalent service from BT except that Zen doesn't have a download limit. My comparison is for Line Rental + Broadband Service + Fixed IP + Critical Care + Call Package. The wild card is that Line Rental Saver is available from BT but doesn't seem to be an offering from Zen.

To remove any element of doubt we are talking about business packages. It seems if you want a bullet proof broadband service you need to shell out close on £100 per month. Makes domestic offerings look like an absolute steal.