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Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Sat 10-Jan-15 09:26:00
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Upload issues


[link to this post]
 
My story: Remote N Wales property about 2km from Llithfaen exchange. FTTC just implemented. I moved from ADSL+ (6.2 down /.38 up) to BT Infinity 1 on Nov 21st, and was connected by an unhappy newbie from "Kelly's Heroes”. Synced at a 22.00 up and 1.00 down.

For cloud / server use I was specifically hoping for higher UPLOAD. I was naively hoping / assuming that the Up would be about 25% of the Down as in “up to 40/10”. Before and after Infinity, this line has always been stable.

I reported the slow upload, usual call-centre nonsense and wise guys online till Mod intervened on BTCare forum. He was clear my profile was “up to 10Mbps Up” and he checked things with BT Wholesale etc. Since had 2 top notch OR engineers. The first got the speed up to 25.00 / 1.6, and the second (who replaced 3 poles-worth of cable), on Dec 30th, up to 29.5 / 3.00. The Down is now well above original estimate, and the Up has now crept into the lower end.

As the Mods & Engineers have been so helpful, I feel I haven't many grounds to continue complaining - unless I know there is a simple implementable solution! Thus this post! I am confident this line is now as clean as a whistle, and no-one can give me a clear reason why the Up/Down ration is 10:1 instead of the 4:1 implied by all the promos.

I feel sure that this line could easily manage 7Mbps, and I’m on less than half. It seems to me that some routine software somewhere is limiting the Upload for no other reason than that very few people are bothered about it! Especially with a stable, higher than expectation down. Any thoughts? How exactly is the Down/Up ratio determined? Why does mine still cap at (an eerily precise) 3Mbps even after the 2 recent resets? Might another ISP be different - I see Plusnet often show a 2:1 ratio of Down /Up?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 10-Jan-15 09:36:45
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
Ignore the ratios they are not set in stone at all.

What is important is your distance to the street cabinet, at 25 Mbps the guess is about 1200m. 3 Mbps upload is in the ball park for that speed.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Sat 10-Jan-15 11:39:44
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Re: Upload issues


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Andrew. This is what I was told at the outset, but because I persisted, my upload has been TREBLED thanks to the 2 engineer visits.

My download is well above expectation, the upload is right at the bottom. Same wire. Why??!


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 10-Jan-15 11:46:25
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
Because of the way the signal is split across the frequency bins and impact of different power masks.
With vdsl2 the upstream is arranged differently than with adsl2+ so you can see stepped changes

The key to knowing whether to keep trying for more is distance to the cabinet

Connection stats from the home hub would be useful too

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Sat 10-Jan-15 20:34:32
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Re: Upload issues


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
If there is a "dummy's guide" to "frequency bins" & "power masks" et al - do please post a link!

Meantime, in my blissful ignorance, I still feel this is much simpler - and the chat I had with one of the BTCare Mods this eve tends to confirm this. He explained to me (again) about DLM, and that it seeks out the highest most stable level, and that therefore my 3Mbps Up is simply that.

But, I argued, my line has never been tested with the 6/7Mbps Up that the engineers think it should be well capable of. After the installation it sat consistently at precisely 1.00, after the first reset at 1.6, and after the third reset at 3.00. It was perfectly stable, so did not need to "settle" to a lower rate. Just stayed rock solid at the start rate, hour in hour out. As far as I can see, the DLM system never tried anything higher. Because, I tend to think, nobody is bothered much about Up, so it just fixes at a safe level. If somebody (like me) persists, and the computer is kicked (to use a technical phrase) then DLM bumps up another safe notch. But, I feel, never truly tests for the highest possible Up as it seems to do for the Down. No doubt algorithms are responsible as they are for most modern life!

So I just want the DLM computer to be politely asked to just try offering a 7Mbps Up and see what happens! From all the evidence of the last weeks, I would bet a kilo of copper that it would be very happy and stable - and then so would I!

Anyway, I understand my naive theory is going to be addressed by Openreach next week, so I will keep you in touch with any developments!

My most recent hub stats are here and am happy to post anything else that might help, even PM you my number etc.

Thanks again.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 10-Jan-15 22:51:45
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
Why do you think your line is capable of 7 Mbps up, when the DSL checker estimates 4.5 Mbps max?


____________________________________________________________________________All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front__________________
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 10-Jan-15 23:19:39
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
Crude but simple is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-high-bit-rate_digi...

NOTE: The DLM system will have tried the maximum sync speed within the first two days of the lines active life and if seeing errors the DLM tends to lower sync to the point where errors don't impact on throughput.

If the line improves the DLM does relent and give back speed, have tried this theory and seen it work on two lines I have.

As for forcing it to try 7 Mbps, if there is not enough usable frequencies left then the modem would sync not sync if tried to force 7 Mbps on the upstream.

To see if there is a chance of you getting more, then a bin plot and some head scratching to look over the figures would be needed, i.e. well above the pay grade of BT support or any of the engineers who visit. They are trained to use their test kit, not understand the nuances of the VDSL2 works.

The key to your puzzle is your line length, as from that we can see if you are out performing expectations or under performing, If you have no idea where your cabinet is then PM the address to me and will try to figure it out for you.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Sun 11-Jan-15 00:34:48
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Re: Upload issues


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Two reasons:

1) The DSL checker says max clean 24 Down and 4.5 Up. I have had stable 30 Down for a couple of weeks so if this same “higher than expected performance” is applied to the Up, then it seems to my simple brain that 5.5+ is a fair expectation.

2) I talk about 7+ because I am paying for an “up to 40/10” connection, and I therefore expect the ratio of Down/Up to be 4:1. So in my case: 30 / 7.5.

I completely accept my ignorance in these matters, and that Mr Saffron is no doubt correct to say the ratios are meaningless - I joined this forum to learn. But I contracted to BT on the basis of being sold this ratio and will fight for it until I have been completely convinced it is not possible! Bear in mind that I was assured in late November from near and far that my 1Mbps was quite acceptable, and through persistence this has now been TREBLED!

I hope to report back in a week or two that it has been further doubled!
Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Sun 11-Jan-15 00:36:21
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Re: Upload issues


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I’m sure you’re right about the DLM systems trying maximum sync etc., but I saw no evidence of this in my many speedtest results through the whole period since installation. Installation engineer calls on 21/11/14; syncs at 22:1. Stays the same all day / every day. Engineer comes 19/12/14, syncs at 25:1.6. Stays the same all day / every day. Second engineer comes on 30/12/14. Syncs at 30:3. Stays (more or less) the same all day / every day. So I see no DLM activity at all - but no doubt like the Wizard of Oz it’s all happening behind the curtain!

I am almost exactly 1 mile (1.6km) from the cabinet, so by most conventions my Down is over-performing rather well! I also know that I was only the 4th connection to the cabinet and this was still true a week or so ago. I gather this is good news re “crosstalk”…

Your reference to a “bin plot” will surely have alerted the NSA to our posts smile) Hopefully tomorrow I will have an inkling of what it is when I try to digest the link you kindly posted.

Thanks again.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 11-Jan-15 00:50:00
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
Can you post the latest estimate from the DSL checker and your latest line stats please? The stats you pointed to are last week's.


____________________________________________________________________________All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front__________________
Standard User MCM
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 11-Jan-15 00:50:32
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
But I contracted to BT on the basis of being sold this ratio
FALSE. Nowhere has BT sold you a ratio. It has sold you two "up to" speeds. It is yourself that is falsely attempting to extend 40/10 to being the ratio between the two speeds you might observe with any connection.
Mr Saffron is no doubt correct to say the ratios are meaningless
Spot on. Now you're learning.
I hope to report back in a week or two that it has been further doubled!
And likewise I'd like to report back that I've won the lottery, although that would mean that I first had to buy a ticket which I won't be doing any time soon or ever.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 11-Jan-15 01:20:02
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
It isn't a ratio. If it were, it would be written 40:10, not 40/10.

Anyway, you weren't sold a 40/10 product. BT doesn't offer one. Nor can I find any mention of upload speeds in their product descriptions.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sun 11-Jan-15 01:33:58
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mayavirupa333:
Two reasons:

1) The DSL checker says max clean 24 Down and 4.5 Up. I have had stable 30 Down for a couple of weeks so if this same “higher than expected performance” is applied to the Up, then it seems to my simple brain that 5.5+ is a fair expectation.


FALSE.

Look at where the upstream and downstream blocks are in te spectrum. As attenuation increase it will affect the higher part of the spectrum, gradually moving towards the low end. So, as you loose Up2 completely, you will start to loose Dn2 with very little effect on Up1 initially. Then as D2 is eaten away looses to Up1 will start to occur.

Conversely, if you are getting full use of Up1 and Dn is partly available, improving the line will/may make additional Dn1 frequencies available but not Up2 unless the changes are significantly great.


And you are being sold an "up to 40/up to 10" connection with no direct link between the two values. If for example there were 4 tones used for down, then one for up, followed by 4 down, 1 up &c &c then you might expect something close to 4:1 however it is not. Do a few searches and start reading about Profiles and Band Plans - Profile 17a and BandPlan998.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Sun 11-Jan-15 01:48:27
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Re: Upload issues


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It isn't a ratio. If it were, it would be written 40:10, not 40/10.

Anyway, you weren't sold a 40/10 product. BT doesn't offer one. Nor can I find any mention of upload speeds in their product descriptions.
I have a 40/10 product with Sky, I believe it's the original 40/2 product and BT increased the uploads to 40/10. Could be wrong here though.
Standard User jcym
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 11-Jan-15 02:54:24
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Re: Upload issues


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It isn't a ratio. If it were, it would be written 40:10, not 40/10.

Anyway, you weren't sold a 40/10 product. BT doesn't offer one. Nor can I find any mention of upload speeds in their product descriptions.
I have a 40/10 product with Sky, I believe it's the original 40/2 product and BT increased the uploads to 40/10. Could be wrong here though.


Actually Robert is right. For if you check BT's order page they offer three Infinity products (ignoring variations to the telephone side of any packages). One 38 Mbps package with a 20GB/month usage limit and an unlimited 38 Mbps and 76 Mbps package but nowhere on their main offer or more details or FAQ pages do they mention upload speeds and you have to go digging for it. Good luck finding it though smile. In other words, it is not a significant pert of the offer as far as BT is concerned and any estimates when you feed in your telephone number, are just that, estimates.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 11-Jan-15 09:34:50
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
That would be because with the wiring in the stat it was 22/1 was the maximum possible at the time

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 11-Jan-15 13:30:07
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Re: Upload issues


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Openreach still has three products.
Up to 40Mbit/s downstream and up to 2Mbit/s upstream (including Simultaneous Provide) 01/07/2009 82.80
Up to 40Mbit/s downstream and up to 10Mbit/s upstream (including Simultaneous Provide) 01/09/2011 88.80
Up to 80Mbit/s downstream and up to 20Mbit/s upstream (including Simultaneous Provide) 10/04/2012 119.40
The first two both existed from the start. The dates are the operative ones for the prices.

Edit - Sky offer 38Mbps and 76Mbps, just like BT. Only the 76Mbps one appears to mention the upstream speed, at least on this page.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 11-Jan-15 13:36:53)

Standard User vimto_girl
(committed) Sun 11-Jan-15 14:06:55
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Re: Upload issues


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It isn't a ratio. If it were, it would be written 40:10, not 40/10.

Anyway, you weren't sold a 40/10 product. BT doesn't offer one. Nor can I find any mention of upload speeds in their product descriptions.
Huh? BT Infinity 1 at the time of writing is a "40/10" product. Sales agents will tell you this, broadband comparison and info sites are supplied this info by BT, and the online account portal for a customer confirms these download and upload 'up to' speeds in big writing. A BT mod also confirmed to the poster he was on this package speed.

What exactly do you think BT offer and what do you think the poster was sold? What's your source if you couldn't find the info on the BT website?
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 11-Jan-15 14:23:30
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Re: Upload issues


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/bt/t/4382143-upload...

Please show me where on the BT website any mention of "up to 40Mbps" is made, and where any mention of the upstream speed is made.

I do not dispute the Openreach product in use, but BT do not advertise an "up to 40Mbps" product. Very few ISPs do, and the ones that do are flouting Ofcom regulations.

Don't forget we start with the OP's claim that he bought a 40/10 product from BT. I cannot find it. If you can, on the BT website, that would be helpful.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User vimto_girl
(committed) Sun 11-Jan-15 14:40:53
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Re: Upload issues


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
That's OK, if you don't dispute that the BT package has a maximum sync of 40/10, that's the end of the matter for me.

That's obviously what the poster meant, and the poster's point clearly revolved around sync speeds and his misunderstanding of a fixed ratio between upload and download.

I don't have to play silly esoteric games about the difference between a 40:10 ratio and a 38:9.5 ratio. It's just pathetic really.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 11-Jan-15 14:44:48
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Re: Upload issues


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
It's not a ratio as has already been explained.


____________________________________________________________________________All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front__________________
Standard User vimto_girl
(committed) Sun 11-Jan-15 14:55:23
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Re: Upload issues


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Um, I know. Read my post again.

The question is, what was Roberto's point at all, if not to claim the *misunderstood* "ratios" were different?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 11-Jan-15 14:59:11
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Re: Upload issues


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by vimto_girl:
Um, I know. Read my post again.
I think you should
In reply to a post by vimto_girl:
a 40:10 ratio and a 38:9.5 ratio.



____________________________________________________________________________All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front__________________
Standard User vimto_girl
(committed) Sun 11-Jan-15 15:04:30
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Re: Upload issues


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Because you read someone referring to a ratio, you ignore all else they said, and decide they *therefore themselves believe* it is a ratio?

If you're still confused, maybe ask an adult, they may be able to explain it to you smile
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 11-Jan-15 15:08:01
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Re: Upload issues


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
I'm surprised you haven't realised this is a forum, I'm not really just telling you but the OP as well, as your post may confuse them even more than they currently are.


____________________________________________________________________________All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front__________________
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 11-Jan-15 18:51:05
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Re: Upload issues


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It isn't a ratio.
As many beforehand had said and the OP seems unable to comprehend.

Nor, whatever the underlying Openreach product, was he ever offered or sold a 40/10 connection as he claims. That was my point. Where, as you claimed, is the upstream 10, or even 9.5, mentioned on the BT Retail website please?

Take Plusnet, who offer a 38/19 product. Do you consider people should get an upstream of 50% of the downstream? It happens to be the Openreach 80/20 with Plusnet themselves capping the downstream, but few punters would know that.

You just seem to be taking another of your occasional unwarranted pops at me. Please desist unless you have anything useful to contribute.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 11-Jan-15 18:52:09)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 11-Jan-15 18:54:59
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Re: Upload issues


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
LOL
I hadn't really picked up on that part of her post. I don't remember saying it's a 38:9.5 ratio. Nobody else either. Entirely something she dreamt up smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sun 11-Jan-15 19:29:39
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Re: Upload issues


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Nor, whatever the underlying Openreach product, was he ever offered or sold a 40/10 connection as he claims. That was my point. Where, as you claimed, is the upstream 10, or even 9.5, mentioned on the BT Retail website please?



It is there!

Go to the packages page at: http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/products/broad...

Choose one of the Fibre 38 or 76 Mb packages and click on Full Details at the bottom left and an additional block appears with a yellow background.

Find the text which says Superfast speeds Up to 9 x faster than the UK’s average standard broadband speed and hover over the word SPEED and a blue bubble will appear which quotes either 9.5 or 19 Mb upload speed.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 11-Jan-15 20:06:26
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Re: Upload issues


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, though I wish you'd let the flea find it smile.

jcym did suggest it was somewhere around - with digging, but that is rather abstruse.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sun 11-Jan-15 20:09:05
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Re: Upload issues


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I knew exactly where it was ... was going through an order with someone earlier although they finally went down the Business route and on the business side it is on the front page!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 11-Jan-15 20:17:00
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Re: Upload issues


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
smile
You mean here. Where potential customers expect detailed information they get it, instead of glossy pictures and having to hunt for it in a fairly expert way.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sun 11-Jan-15 20:28:21
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Re: Upload issues


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
That's the one!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Sun 11-Jan-15 23:38:11
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Re: Upload issues


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks to Mr Saffron & everyone else who has tried to help me through this technical maze - even those who think it’s ok to shout “FALSE!” at any passing Newbie!

Thanks especially to vimto_girl who I felt had actually read my posts rather than just reacted to them.

I will keep this thread updated if / when there are any significant developments. Meantime I continue swotting for my Advanced Broadband exams.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 12-Jan-15 00:03:57
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
vimto_girl is quite the authority on broadband


____________________________________________________________________________All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front__________________
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 12-Jan-15 09:09:18
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
Just to show it can go the other way I am on Infinity 2 and get 50/16. So around a 3:1 ratio - but I can't use that to ask BT to increase my downstream to match a ratio to the upstream as the VDSL is using whatever frequencies are available within the specs and just happens to be hitting this speed.

In my case the downstream is within BT's estimates but the upstream is a bit quicker than their highest estimate. The actual ratio for a specific line is down to physics and not mathematics.
Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Mon 12-Jan-15 12:14:30
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Re: Upload issues


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Thanks ian72, a very interesting example. Yes, I certainly now accept it's physics not maths. However! While, as you say, you can't use these numbers to persuade BT to up your Down (so to speak!) - I still believe that if an engineer / DLM techie was prepared to go the extra mile and personally "tweak your frequencies"... that a higher Down could probably be achieved. Such individual intervention and tweaking is presumably not commercially viable, so I accept it ain't gonna happen. So: yes it's physics, but also, as always, money.

Despite all the education I have received here and elsewhere, I remain convinced that - for reasons I have speculated about previously - the DLM system has simply not tried anything higher than 3Mbps on my line, and that if it did, the line would cope, and about 6Mbps that could be achieved.

But I accept it ain't gonna happen, and I can already hear the cries of "FALSE" echoing across these mountains!

I guess my subtext here is about how much our lives are now ruled and regulated by poorly executed programs and imperfect algorithms. "I'm sorry sir, but the system won't let me do that..." "I'm sorry that's the maximum limit the computer's allowing me..." etc etc

All the progress in my case has been through conscientious individuals... Latest score: Humans: 4, Computers: 0!
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 12-Jan-15 12:41:15
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
The bins that are allowed to be used for up and down are set in the standards - this is to ensure that crosstalk is limited as it means that the same frequencies are working in the same directions for all lines.

The only way we would know for sure if there is capacity for the DLM to increase your upload would be to get the full stats of attenuation, SNR sync rate, and power for the connection. This would show if there was any potential for increases via a kick to the DLM. However, others more knowledgeable on here around stats (like MrS) suggest that your sync speed is in line with what would be expected for the length of the line.
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 12-Jan-15 17:28:27
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mayavirupa333:
I still believe that if an engineer / DLM techie was prepared to go the extra mile and personally "tweak your frequencies"... that a higher Down could probably be achieved. Such individual intervention and tweaking is presumably not commercially viable, so I accept it ain't gonna happen. So: yes it's physics, but also, as always, money.


As ian72 says, this sort of individual tweaking can't be done, and the reason is physics not money.

The VDSL2 bandplans have each frequency bin allocated for downstream or upstream use. No bins are available for "either way on demand", as that would cause the performance of all lines in the bundle to degrade owing to higher crosstalk. For acceptable crosstalk performance, you need the strong signal from the generating device to be either at the user end or the DSLAM end of the pair. If the strong signal in a bin could be at either end of the line, the strong signals would seriously degrade the weaker signals in the bin running in the opposite direction.

The bandplans and power masks have been carefully chosen and fixed by regulators and standards in order to ensure the best possible performance overall.


As ian72 says, if you post the line statistics (including per bin plots if you have them), people will be able to comment on the performance of your connection, though it seems that your connection is likely performing as fast as expected.

Unfortunately for you, it seems your line's performance is limited in first large block of upstream bins and has likely petered out before reaching the second large block of upstream bins, hence the relatively slow upstream connection. A substantial improvement will require bonding multiple connections together or a future enhancement to the network that is not likely in the near term (such as deployment of FTTrN).

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 12-Jan-15 21:34:22
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mayavirupa333:
I remain convinced that - for reasons I have speculated about previously - the DLM system has simply not tried anything higher than 3Mbps on my line, and that if it did, the line would cope, and about 6Mbps that could be achieved.
I tend to agree that more is probably available. It was just your insistence on a 4:1 ratio despite several people saying it didn't work like that which brought me in on the same lines. Whereupon unnecessary and unhelpful to you mayhem erupted. Water under the bridge I hope.

A few people have mentioned the bin plots and so on.

If you obtain an HG612 Openreach modem, there are usually several around on eBay, then you can unlock and use that and many diagnostic stats statistics can be produced. There are two different sets of programs well known on these forums that can automate collection, and produce useful graphs.

The BT Home Hub can be fed from that via the WAN port. If you decide to try it, do not pay well over the odds for one that is already unlocked, as it's a simple process. (Not so the ECI modem). You would need a 3B version.

At a simple level, as I don't use either at the moment though I did use one a while ago, just using telnet the bins in use can be identified, though not how much is used in each:-

# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 14810 Kbps, Downstream rate = 55932 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 14832 Kbps, Downstream rate = 57095 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2780)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 14810 kbps 55932 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 7.4 dBm 13.5 dBm
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2
U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 5.2 29.1 44.0 N/A N/A 14.3 35.8 55.0
Signal Attenuation(dB): 5.2 28.1 42.9 N/A N/A 18.8 35.5 55.1
SNR Margin(dB): 6.1 6.1 6.1 N/A N/A 5.8 5.9 5.8
TX Power(dBm): 0.4 -13.6 6.4 N/A N/A 11.0 8.1 5.5
#

The discovery phase is finding the available bins. The medley phase is after which ones are viable has been decided. As you can see, mine are nearly identical. Yours might have significant differences.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User mayavirupa333
(newbie) Tue 13-Jan-15 10:39:15
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Re: Upload issues


[re: mayavirupa333] [link to this post]
 
Very helpful input from ian72, David_W & RobertoS. These are definitely the kind of answers I was hoping to find here. Planning to get an HG612 shortly so I can boggle everyone with stats & charts! Meantime I've got some intensive plumbing, so back in a week or so.
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