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Standard User tallseabird
(committed) Thu 26-Nov-20 14:38:48
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FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[link to this post]
 
I am considering getting BT FTTP. I live in a detached house, currently the phone line comes up in the middle of the house under the stairs, I have had low level cupboards with a bench top installed there and the NTE5 is in behind one of the cupboards, the cupboard has no back on it and there is a power socket there. Can BT put the ONT there or must it be on an external wall?

There is tarmac all around the front of my house, will they dig it up to install the fibre-optic cable?

I know this is going to be subjective but will they take reasonable care when installing this or is it simply a matter of the easiest option for them?

Thanks
Standard User busterboy
(committed) Thu 26-Nov-20 15:21:53
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
Just had mine installed yesterday so can add a little info.

My Fibre came from a pole overhead and was cabled round my house exactly where I wanted it.

The engineer then added a Customer Service Point on the outside of my house.

The cable was then brought through a small hole into the house and placed very near (my choice) where the hole was.

The ONT (Optical Network Terminal) is then fixed to the wall as near as possible to a mains socket and all made very tidy and looks very neat.

If yours is fed underground (I don't know that) then you will be looking at further work to which I have no knowledge.

Hope I helped a little. smile

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 26-Nov-20 15:32:28
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
It doesn't need to be on an external wall.

The fibre feed usually follows the same path as the copper feed.
So fibre will likely appear from the same underground duct as the copper does now (if there is ducting).
If your current copper feed is buried directly in the ground they may need to dig in the garden.

They can often run the fibre round the external of your property.
They can run it along skirting boards internally.
If you install ducting inside your house with a draw string they usually let you use that to get the feed wherever is appropriate for you.

Basically they are quite flexible (within reason).

With the current deployment method involving splicing it's easier if you keep any requests to ground level.

From your description if the current feed appears under the stairs through a duct and it is unblocked then this would be the easiest way to get the fibre in to your property.

The preferred deployment method is to get fibre to an external wall and fit a slice point on the wall, then run fibre from the splice point to the ONT.
I'm not sure what approach they take where the copper feed appears inside a property.
They may take the fibre the same route as the current feed and not install a splice point or they may use an internal splice point.


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Standard User PS123
(regular) Tue 01-Dec-20 07:28:44
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: tallseabird] [link to this post]
 
When the OpenReach engineer installed my FTTP connection, he kept the old copper in place, stripped-off the copper from the fibre cable and then drilled a new hole to push the fibre cable through the property. I wasn’t bothered by this approach as I know that my exchange will switch off the copper connection in 2025 so old copper can be removed without disturbing the fibre cable.

The most important factor to the install is the engineer who carries out the work. OpenReach’s own engineers are brilliant. They will listen to where you want the cable fitted etc and will carry out the work. It is the third-party contracted fitters and I am looking at you, Kelly Communications, who are literally a bunch of cowboys. Only interested in what is easiest for them to install the FTTP connection.

If you have a third-party contractor turn up, do not immediately accept their response if they mention that they can’t run the cable around the house the way you want it run (within reason). I would immediately push-back and ask to speak to their line manager and failing that make a complaint to OpenReach, who will then send out one of their own engineers.

Good luck.
Standard User gary333
(experienced) Tue 01-Dec-20 10:49:00
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: PS123] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by PS123:
If you have a third-party contractor turn up, do not immediately accept their response if they mention that they can’t run the cable around the house the way you want it run (within reason). I would immediately push-back and ask to speak to their line manager and failing that make a complaint to OpenReach, who will then send out one of their own engineers.

Good luck.


For typical brick and mortar construction they might be willing to clip the cables around as doesn't take too long. However, they will not want to entertain pebble dash, rendered or tile finishes as there is a big risk of making a right mess.
Standard User flilot
(member) Tue 01-Dec-20 16:15:01
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
However, they will not want to entertain pebble dash, rendered or tile finishes as there is a big risk of making a right mess.


The Kelly Communications engineer that installed my CityFibre FTTP was very polite and accommodating, and the rendering on the outside of the property did not phase him. The fibre was spanned from a different pole than my copper landline, and it was neatly fixed in place and clipped to the rendering with no bother.

Carl
____________________________
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Standard User MarkC64
(newbie) Thu 07-Jan-21 14:44:02
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
Kelly Comm's engineer turned up today to install my BT 300 full fibre in my bungalow, was late anyway and his attitude was appalling, refused point blank to install the ONS in my integral porch where I have had a double socket fitted and shelf for modem as per BT instructions, it is high up on the wall above door height but was informed this was ok as long as there is a suitable shelf for the modem to sit and the space for ONS and an outside wall to the front. Insisted he wanted to put it in my front room (bedroom) I said no way. Obvious at that point he didn't want to do the job. I asked for him explain why it cant go in the porch, he wasn't interested and called his manager, who asked to speak to me, I asked him why the install could not put in the porch and he got all shirty told me not tell his engineers how do their job and to stop being aggressive, he then told his man to leave and get on with his other jobs. I stood there asking what's happening and the guy just walked away got in his van and drove off, I was just aghast. Called BT to complain and they were appalled and logged complaint with BT Openreach and Kelly Comms.
Upshot is that I will now have to wait until March as they have stopped all Fibre installs due to lockdown.
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 07-Jan-21 15:07:36
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: MarkC64] [link to this post]
 
Sorry to hear that, surprised he wasn't able to explain why your preferred location was a no-no. Maybe he didn't have a reason other than laziness.
Standard User MarkC64
(newbie) Thu 07-Jan-21 15:25:24
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Apparently BT have cancelled all Fibre installs but Kelly Comms still continue to turned up to jobs assigned to them, probably don't get paid if they don't. I know Kelly have a bad rep for paying rubbish wages to their engineers and they get paid by jobs done (or not). Anyway nothing I can do about it now, asked BT not to send any Kelly Comms in future, will wait for my new appointment in March.
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 07-Jan-21 15:30:40
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: MarkC64] [link to this post]
 
Sadly a different engineer on the day and the outcome may have been very different. Fingers crossed you have more luck in March

Out of interest, does the DSL Checker show your property as a 1 or 2 Stage install process?

Edited by dect (Thu 07-Jan-21 16:03:25)

Standard User MarkC64
(newbie) Thu 07-Jan-21 15:57:31
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install *DELETED*


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
1 stage installf from pole right outside, that's what makes it even more infuriating.

Edited by MarkC64 (Thu 07-Jan-21 16:01:02)

Standard User MarkC64
(newbie) Fri 08-Jan-21 11:14:09
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Do you think the height of the socket is an issue? Do you know if the ONS has to at a certain height? Or a limit as to how high it can be installed? No info on BT website it just says access to double socket and near to outside wall.
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 08-Jan-21 11:36:43
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: MarkC64] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MarkC64:
Do you think the height of the socket is an issue? Do you know if the ONS has to at a certain height? Or a limit as to how high it can be installed? No info on BT website it just says access to double socket and near to outside wall.
I personally don't know and don't want to speculate, there are members on here who would know for sure so hopefully one of them will respond.
Standard User TheInstaller
(learned) Fri 08-Jan-21 18:24:45
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: MarkC64] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MarkC64:
Do you think the height of the socket is an issue? Do you know if the ONS has to at a certain height? Or a limit as to how high it can be installed? No info on BT website it just says access to double socket and near to outside wall.


A photo would be helpful of the front of the property, without that it is pretty much impossible to see if there are any reasons as to why they wouldn't fit the ONT in your porch. If the location you wanted the ONT fitted was not on an outside wall, then that might well be your issue. As a general rule right now, Openreach will not run any internal cable. They will want to drill through the external wall, fit the ONT there and walk out of the property, and so doing minimum work within the property, keeping yourself and the engineer safe from possible COVID etc. I know people might say, but it is only a meter or so, chances are they may well just refuse right now.

My advice will be to anyone who wants to have the ONT fitted in a certain location, lofts, upstairs rooms, cupboards etc, right now expect that not to happen, and expect to have to wait for things to calm down later on in the year with the virus before you get what you want. If you get lucky when someone turns up, then good for you, but be prepared for refusal at the present time.
Standard User MarkC64
(newbie) Fri 08-Jan-21 21:22:36
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: TheInstaller] [link to this post]
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i0k9h7zyav2gdk1/IMG_0437.j...See attached photo link,
Red line would be the run of the incoming line running under the roof line and coming in through top of wall at door height and into the porch. The ONS would sit on the wall inside at just above door height next to the newly installed double socket, with the Hub on a shelf on side wall. No need to come inside the house as the inner porch door would be closed. No internal cable, simple as you can get but the Kelly engineer wanted to go into the front bay which is our bedroom. He just point blank refused to do anything else, the rest is history as they say. Hopefully the next engineer will be a bit more understanding but will have to wait until 11 March now.

Edited by MarkC64 (Fri 08-Jan-21 21:27:40)

Standard User unknown101
(member) Fri 08-Jan-21 22:08:13
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: MarkC64] [link to this post]
 
That route isn’t practical, the line would need to go to ground level first externally so the CSP (customer splice point) to be fitted and external drop cable spliced to the internal feed to go into the house. It is a grey wall mounted box with one cable going in and one cable going out.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 08-Jan-21 22:10:23
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: MarkC64] [link to this post]
 
Did you make sure he didn't think by porch you meant that overhang? Did you show him there is an inner porch. Which I think I'd call a vestibule if small or a hall if large.

To me that looks like a front door, and porches are external to that.

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Standard User TheInstaller
(learned) Sat 09-Jan-21 00:02:18
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: MarkC64] [link to this post]
 
I can't really see that general route as being much of an issue, as long as there are no pipes or mains cables anywhere near the light you have by the front door.

As pointed out though, the cable would need to go into a CSP at ground level first, and then into the porch as you indicated. It won't run into the house without one of these. They are square grey boxes about 5 or 6 inches and about one inch deep.

So you'd be ok with it coming down the front of the house, but when you get to the corner you can come down vertically there to the CSP and back up again at the same point to continue your suggested route, or you could have the CSP by your front door, and drop down to it there. There is also nothing stopping you from over painting the cables afterwards if you wish to make them less noticeable, as they will be black and are roughly about the same size as existing copper phone cables.

You will need to discuss the actual route with the engineer when he comes, but expect something along the lines i've suggested there. The CSP (grey box) needs to be at ground level as the fibres are spiced in it, this can't practically be done at height.

Hope that helps.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 09-Jan-21 11:28:44
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: unknown101] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by unknown101:
That route isn’t practical, the line would need to go to ground level first externally so the CSP (customer splice point) to be fitted and external drop cable spliced to the internal feed to go into the house. It is a grey wall mounted box with one cable going in and one cable going out.


They aren't fitting CSP's everywhere.
That looks perfectly fine for a single drop connectorised cable.

It's the installers job to work out the route.
Mark only insisted on the ONT position.
There's nothing stopping a CSP at ground level and then the fibre entering the porch.

The installer was just lazy and insisted on the line entering the property where the drop cable is anchored, which is apparently a bedroom.

That's got Kellys written all over it.
Standard User MarkC64
(newbie) Sat 09-Jan-21 13:41:32
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the replies, the engineer came into the porch/vestibule and hall so was aware of the layout of the property, he just wanted to do it his way, quickly and be gone, he was already late, he admitted he had three more to do that day. Once I said that it was no go in the front bedroom, he wasn't interested, wouldn't give any explanation as to why, got arsey took some photos and called his manager.etc.

There are no power cables that would affect drilling of a hole at the top left corner above the outside light and the vestibule is wider by about 15cm inside than the outside wall so plenty of room.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zevzf5ycpsf1ytv/dsc_0157.j...

My neighbour two doors down had his FFTP installed in his office at the back of his house just before in Nov, no issues just routed it down the side of the house and in on the side. So I presumed my location would be no problem. Seems it is typical of Kellys engineers get paid rubbish basic money and then per job, so quick and easy is better.
Standard User unknown101
(member) Sat 09-Jan-21 22:42:47
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Brownfield = CSP required.

If this isn’t being done, then the install isn’t being done properly.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 09-Jan-21 23:03:02
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: unknown101] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by unknown101:
Brownfield = CSP required.

If this isn’t being done, then the install isn’t being done properly.


Training is area specific.

No inside out training on this patch at all. Engineer hasn't even heard of it.
No CSP's.
Connectorised cables still being used in my street last week.

Many other examples of the same in other areas.
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 10-Jan-21 10:23:34
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
Training is area specific.

No inside out training on this patch at all. Engineer hasn't even heard of it.
No CSP's.
Connectorised cables still being used in my street last week.

Many other examples of the same in other areas.
We have heard on this forum for probably a year now that CSP's is the correct way for engineers to install fttp and several good reasons have been given (PITA outer cable stripping, high number of field kit SC APC failing) although its not clear if engineers in some areas who are spliced trained are still not using them. I personally would like to see both options continue to be available in all areas, for my specific install a CSP really wouldn't make sense.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 10-Jan-21 11:53:55
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dect:
We have heard on this forum for probably a year now that CSP's is the correct way for engineers to install fttp


We heard about a year ago that OpenReach had started using CSP's again with the inside out method, yes that is correct.
It actually started in June 2019.

OpenReach stagger their training across their many training centres in the UK.
We had a pandemic nearly a year ago that put a halt to many planned changes.

Comments like this are just wrong...

That route isn’t practical, the line would need to go to ground level first externally so the CSP...


And another wrote

As pointed out though, the cable would need to go into a CSP at ground level first,


On their patch that might be the case.
It isn't the case everywhere.

Inside out was trialled in a concept trial (very early) on a couple patches in June 2019.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefi...

The trial didn't even officially launch until February 2020, a month before the pandemic.
It was extended to some other areas.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefi...

My install in August on a brownfield site used no CSP.
I've seen about a dozen installs done in my street the exact same way as recent as 2 weeks ago.
The engineers here haven't heard of it. That's both the new hires and a couple long term guys.

AFAIK it's still a trial deployment.
There has been no OpenReach briefings to say the trial is complete.

I see no problem advising people they may or may not need a CSP depending on the area they are in and if OpenReach are using the inside out method on their patch.

Insisting on every post that a CSP is needed is foolish, particularly with the number of posts we still see that have no CSP installed at all, including brownfield sites.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 10-Jan-21 11:58:07)

Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 10-Jan-21 12:23:58
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your post smile
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
Comments like this are just wrong...

That route isn’t practical, the line would need to go to ground level first externally so the CSP...


And another wrote

As pointed out though, the cable would need to go into a CSP at ground level first,
Lots of posters (including myself) are guilty of repeating what they have read on this forum and/or other forums, I think reading members posts/opinions and reading facts are very different and we need to remember that in the same way as street gossip seems to become fact if repeated too many times frown
Standard User MarkC64
(newbie) Mon 11-Jan-21 13:45:22
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: TheInstaller] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TheInstaller:
I can't really see that general route as being much of an issue, as long as there are no pipes or mains cables anywhere near the light you have by the front door.

As pointed out though, the cable would need to go into a CSP at ground level first, and then into the porch as you indicated. It won't run into the house without one of these. They are square grey boxes about 5 or 6 inches and about one inch deep.

So you'd be ok with it coming down the front of the house, but when you get to the corner you can come down vertically there to the CSP and back up again at the same point to continue your suggested route, or you could have the CSP by your front door, and drop down to it there. There is also nothing stopping you from over painting the cables afterwards if you wish to make them less noticeable, as they will be black and are roughly about the same size as existing copper phone cables.

You will need to discuss the actual route with the engineer when he comes, but expect something along the lines i've suggested there. The CSP (grey box) needs to be at ground level as the fibres are spiced in it, this can't practically be done at height.

Hope that helps.


The engineer came in to the porch/vestibule and hall and looked into the front bedroom he saw the layout, he simply didn't want the extra work of routing it to my porch/ vestibule, lazy and ignorant wanted a quick job and go. Once he knew it couldn’t go into the bedroom he wasn't interested in any other solution.

OPENREACH don't seem to be fitting CSP’s here, neighbour has a connectorised cable straight from pole routed to his house and in through wall to internal ONS. I am no expert but maybe there is limiting length of the connectorised cable and beyond this there will be a requirement for a CSP. I have asked for a survey before they come back in March so there is a plan before the engineer turns up.
Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Mon 11-Jan-21 14:43:49
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Re: FTTP Install - Practical details of install


[re: unknown101] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by unknown101:
Brownfield = CSP required.

If this isn’t being done, then the install isn’t being done properly.


When I was installed by Kelly (after they'd terrorised the neighbourhood leaving ladders unattended in the wind) they installed my FTTP with an internal CSP at 3rd level (essentially loft) taking OH line straight through the wall into small 'white' CSP and then out of the side into the ONT.

Bit more of a can do attitude with my guys though it seems.
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