Switching to Fibre to solve a bad connection?

My Dad's has BT Basic + Broadband, and his connection is flaky to say the least - some days OK, some days no connection at all, most days a mixture of the two. But cutting out on average at least 10 times a day. This has been going on for more than six months.

No technical explanation is forthcoming. He lives in a suburban area relatively near the exchange, with generally quite decent broadband. Openreach have been out a number of times, replaced the wires between cabinet and exchange, replaced the master socket, replaced part of the wire from the house to the cabinet - nothing seems to work.

Last Openreach engineer was reduced to suggesting I switch to fibre to try and circumvent the problem. I'm willing to do this (I'm over there three days a week, and need internet to work) - but what I don't want is to sign an 18-month contract with a fibre provider and be left in a similar situation as just now, except committed to paying £400-odd quid for it.

My question is - if I take out a fibre contract, and have the same problems, intermittent dropouts throughout the day right from the outset, would I be allowed to cancel the contract after four weeks or whatever? What is my best approach?

First you need to check what is available at your Dad's. Use this to see what he can get. If he can get FTTP (not FTTPoD - ignore that if it comes up) then that should be stable connection. If it is FTTC then see what the speed range is and let us know.

When you sign up to a FTTC supplier they should give you a minimum speed guarantee. If the line is not performing to the minimum speed and they can't fix it then they would have to let you go. There are some ISPs that are better than others - AAISP being the obvious that is more likely to get the issues resolved but they are more towards the premium end of costs.

Thanks for that.

The link you gave me returns this for his address -
http://nulmedia.com/fibre.jpg
so it looks like he can get FTTP "on demand" - but under the table it says "FTTP is not available".

Not sure what that means in practice?

You can get FTTC and G.fast.

I'd be surprised if moving to an FTTC product came with a cost increase over a basic ADSL service, and the advantage is you get the copper from the exchange to the cabinet out of the picture.

How are you judging the ‘no connection at all’ ?
Is the router losing sync ?
Has the router been replaced ?
Are the connections to the router wired or wireless ?

Could it be something on the LAN side is swamping the upload, easily done with modern equipment backing up to the cloud for instance

My idea of no-connection is a practical one - i.e. when I'm plugged into the router via an ethernet cable I can't get sufficient data for my browser to retrieve any info from a web site.

The usual situation is a shifting one - not connected / connected but no IP address / connected and with an IP address, but I can't bring up even a basic web page like Google.

The router seems like the one thing that hasn't been replaced during this process, but I have dug out a previously-sent router ( another BT hub 4 ) so I'm going to give that a go before I resort to changing provider.

As Ian says, switching to a provider with a better customer service reputation will help get the problem resolved if it persists. Also, most of the better ISPs will only want a years contract. Work out what the extra cost is over the year vs. BT and see if that is worth it to help get the problem resolved.

In reply to a post by gordon_k:

so it looks like he can get FTTP "on demand" - but under the table it says "FTTP is not available".
Not sure what that means in practice?

FTTP isn't generally available in the area BUT if he (or you) wanted 'FTTP on demand' you can ask for a quote to install it. Generally it will cost an arm and a leg to get it to you and probably far more than you might be prepared to pay.

As others have said, if you get FTTC installed you might find your problems disappear, unless of course, the problem is in the cabling from the local cabinet to the house. Hopefully not.

And of course with FTTC there is always the fall back 'downstream handback' value. But looking at it you should be fine and if not, badger the ISP to death to get it fixed.

What is the mobile reception like? If it is an area where the mobile reception is good and the possible increased latency by connection through a mobile network is not likely to be an issue (e.g. no heavy use for gaming) then you could consider binning the landline connection (although you might wish to retain it purely for the voice service) and move your internet connection over to a mobile network solution. There are a number of people round these parts who have done that and find it just as effective as a landline based connection and no more expensive. If that would work you could even port the landline telephone number over to VOIP and cease the landline completely while retaining the ability for people to ring your existing landline number.

Edited by GonePostal (Wed 12-May-21 21:09:30)

Don't forget this is his dad's connection. The OP is there three days a week.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 12-May-21 23:00:21)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

What is the mobile reception like? If it is an area where the mobile reception is good and the possible increased latency by connection through a mobile network is not likely to be an issue (e.g. no heavy use for gaming) then you could consider binning the landline connection (although you might wish to retain it purely for the voice service) and move your internet connection over to a mobile network solution.

Thanks for bringing that up. It was somewhere at the back of my mind as an option, but I didn't realise just how cost-effective some of the SIM-only tethering deals are these days.

Looks like I can revert my dad to plain BT Basic at £5 a month ( his phone connection is fine, seems only to be the higher-frequency stuff that's breaking up ) and get myself 30GB of tethering for £10 a month, which should be plenty for about 12-14 days of use. Cheaper than a fibre connection, and it removes any complications with the line.

I think that's my plan. Give the current line a final go with another router, and if that doesn't work, go the tethering route.

Edited by deleted (Thu 13-May-21 00:50:52)

So, when it is having problems are you still able to log in to the router admin pages? If so then can you get to the stats for the line to see what it says about the connection speeds/SNR/etc?

It could be the router but BT should really have ruled this out. Checking the stats before, during and after an issue would give an idea as to where the problem may lie.

As a temporary solution it might be worth checking if any neighbours are emitting a strong enough Bt-wifi signal to log in to.

All BT broadband customers get free access to BT-wifi hot spots (including BT Basic+broadband customers).

However this is only likely to work if a neighbour is very close and with not too many walls or hedges etc. in between.

BT Basic+broadband will work with any ADSL router - you are not limited to the supplied BT Hub 4. So it might be worth trying any other old router you have to see if this makes a difference.

Hang on, have I missed something here? His Dad can get very fast speeds on both VDSL and G.fast, why would he need to go down the mobile broadband route?

1) I didn't open the uploaded pic - Doh!
2) Notwithstanding that, there may be some long-standing problem with the copper connection which a short term switch to mobile would alleviate on a temporary basis.

It would seem the broadband isn't needed by his dad. Only there for the OP when he visits in the week.

Switching to FTTC will most definitely solve your problem. While FTTP is pretty much guaranteed to solve reliability!

In my case when I was on EO Line 3dB was impossible to maintain stable sync on ADSL. The internet connection wouldn't even last for half a day before dropping out. With 6dB it will also drop out within 2-4 days regardless of what ISP or router quality I buy.

In my case only a manual ISP cap of 9dB on ADSL was my connection stable and even then 9dB would drop to 3dB almost every day in the mornings due to some interference that would occur for years. After 10 minutes to 2 hours it recovers back to 9dB. But because the SNR is high enough the drop didn't go to 0dB.

I personally have observed in my router stats over the years with a 6dB or 3dB default SNR under ADSL formerly EO Line the SNR would never be stable and would very frequently drop to 1dB even witnessed 0.8dB and that gave me clues why my connection was dropping out. Like it would disconnect 5-6 times a day with a 3dB profile.

No Openreach engineer or Sky engineer was able to fix my disconnection issues when I was on EO Line ADSL regardless of what ISP I chose.

FTTC finally came in October 2019 and that is when miracles happened. Now the same 3dB SNR no longer poses problems and from my observation last 15 months since having FTTC with TalkTalk. I took the risk to sign a 24 month contract. Fortunately noise margins are very stable and my connection is no longer dropping out. Extremely rarely have I observed even minor fluctuations and that's an indicator of a stable line thanks to shorter copper lengths I believe under FTTC.

I think the longer the copper line to the cabinet the higher the risk there is to picking up noise and that can reduce speeds. Now my cabinet is around 320 meters and I have measured it with google maps. But my line attenuation shows as 17.90-18dB. Some have said that, my cabinet must be longer than that. Even if it is quite a bit longer than that my connection has almost always synced at 80Mbps.

There was only one occasion a few months ago following TalkTalk router firmware update that DLM dropped my speed to 79.6Mbps for 1-2 months and then it went back up to 80Mbps.

If your cabinet location is relatively close, (say within 500 meters). I can pretty much reassure you that you won't suffer connection drop-outs anymore!

Edited by BLaZiNgSPEED (Thu 13-May-21 17:42:24)

Gotcha! Tbh, the most recent observed downstream rate is within the estimate, and the upload isn't affected, so I don't think there's anything majorly wrong with the line if at all.

Edited by Grimers (Thu 13-May-21 19:59:40)

Ah, I see.

It depends if whatever is causing the fault is in the section of copper between the EU and the cabinet. If it is, then switching to FTTC won't make any difference, it may even make it worse because of the higher frequencies it uses.

If the copper from the exchange to the cabinet is replaced with Fibre (and that's the faulty copper line) then it will likely resolve the issue.

Like in my case when I was on EO Line from BT Telephone Exchange to my home was around 1200 meters long. Switching to FTTC meant copper is now reduced to 320 meters or so from cabinet to property.

That's almost 900 meters worth of copper slashed! It automatically reduces the risk of interference's found on the line. Plus after that if there are still issues, the Openreach engineers can more easily diagnose and pin-point the fault since the length is reduced.

Ok, you've obviously not read/understood what I've said properly. I said if the section of cable between the premises and cabinet has a fault in it, then moving over to FTTC would not make any difference.

It may not make a difference, but it will be easier for Openreach to diagnose where the problem is and will more likely find where the fault lies.

But with ADSL if the entire wire is made out of copper there are more chances of noises and faults being found on the line everywhere. It may be harder or take a longer time for an engineer to find a fault.

If the OP has no hope of getting FTTP any time soon, it doesn't hurt to try switching to FTTC and see for themselves.

My 10+ years of intermittent disconnections on ADSL immediately came to an end when I switched to FTTC last year. I used to have obsession checking router stats every day in the past. Nowadays my internet connection has been so stable last 15 months, that I completely got rid of my obsession and worry about my connection.

Usually after switching, you'll immediately find out within the first 2-3 weeks whether your connection will be stable or not. Stable noise margins are an indicator that the connection will remain stable as long as a new fault doesn't arise.

I totally agree! I was just trying to say that switching from ADSL to FTTC doesn't always fix these kinds of problems. In some cases yes, but not always!

In the previous post you wrote..

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Switching to FTTC will most definitely solve your problem.

To which Grimers (correctly) replied...

In reply to a post by Grimers:

It depends if whatever is causing the fault is in the section of copper between the EU and the cabinet. If it is, then switching to FTTC won't make any difference, it may even make it worse because of the higher frequencies it uses.

Switching from ADSL to FTTC doesn't always solve issues.

Any faults, bad joints, sources of interference on the D-Side (between cabinet and home) will remain after switching to FTTC.
Many lines also have a great deal of Aluminium on the D-Side.

As pointed out above, the higher frequencies used by FTTC (both VDSL2 & G.Fast) can make problems worse, or cause new issues not seen before.

You like to take your own experience and extrapolate to everyone else with such certainty.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Switching to FTTC will most definitely solve your problem.

It might, it might not.
The removal of a large chunk of copper from the loop from an upgrade to FTTC does help a lot of the time, but you can't say it most definitely will solve a problem.

Thanks, John. I did wonder if I was barking up the wrong tree! I guess if the pair is switched in the migration it could help, but I don't think this is normally the case.

Got more Openreach guys over the other day, and by the end of the process we'd had the cables to the exchange switched over, the cable from the house to the cabinet replaced, the master socket replaced, and even tried another router.

None of which seemd to make a dent in the problem. And I know my computer's fine - works like a champ when I'm at my own place.

So I ordered a £10/30GB a month tethering SIM, and I'm gonna revert my dad to BT Basic. Seems the cleanest way to cut the Gordian knot.

Thanks to everyone for helping me get my head round this.

Ok, I would say that it's something causing major interference then. Or, maybe DLM wasn't reset?

In reply to a post by Grimers:

Ok, I would say that it's something causing major interference then. Or, maybe DLM wasn't reset?

Well the problem is there whether I'm connecting via ethernet or WiFi.

One thing I have noticed though - my backup plan of getting BT WiFi enabled hasn't been effective, because the BT WiFi connection seems to fail at roughly the same times as my router signal does. I wonder if that could indicate some sort of local interference?

Interference can still affect the DSL side of things, not just WiFi. It just depends on what it is and what type of frequencies it's interfering with.

Yeah, if the DSL signal is going down, then it's going to be something either in your home or near the path the copper line takes that's interfering.

By BT WiFi, it sound like you are talking about the publicly available service from your BT Hub? That isn't a separate DSL connection. It simply grabs a small (I think fixed) amount of your download capacity/throughput.

Bound to go down when yours does.