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Am aware that Openreach's WLR service (i.e. PSTN) is being switched off by the end of 2025.
I'm also aware that BT/EE are (in theory at least) eager to switch their retail customers over to Digital Voice well before this happens - well, that or alternatively just to ditch their voice 'landline' altogether.
This change is happening, even if the timetable might possibly slip a bit (we shall see how it plays out).
However, because of the convenience of their current set-up and FTTP not having reached them yet, I'm just wondering how feasible it might be for a BT customer (broadband + landline) to delay the switch to Digital Voice for as long as possible? (Perhaps even until the summer of 2025...?)
There is no telecare device on the line, but a small white lie could be told about that... however I guess it's feasible BT (or OR) could be analysing landline usage to detect if there is indeed an active telecare device using the line (presumably such devices 'phone home' at fairly regular intervals).
I think I recall reading something somewhere by someone explaining that they had successfully put off BT switching a service to DV on more than one occasion, but they just had to be on the ball and call up customer services each time BT got in touch (by letter I think) scheduling a switch, in order to pro-actively opt-out of the process (even after already having done so some months previously). However maybe this was in BT's initial period of (over-)eagerness to get people to switch over to DV.
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Curious to know the reason for your aversion to DV, I've had no problems with it since I switched over on my Sky line a few years ago. The main difference being much better audio quality.
Oliver.
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Am aware that Openreach's WLR service (i.e. PSTN) is being switched off by the end of 2025.
I'm also aware that BT/EE are (in theory at least) eager to switch their retail customers over to Digital Voice well before this happens - well, that or alternatively just to ditch their voice 'landline' altogether.
you can move your phone line over to voip and have internet from bt/ee/zen/sky etc - you don't have to have bt/ee digital voice.
This change is happening, even if the timetable might possibly slip a bit (we shall see how it plays out).
for the vast majority it won't
However, because of the convenience of their current set-up and FTTP not having reached them yet, I'm just wondering how feasible it might be for a BT customer (broadband + landline) to delay the switch to Digital Voice for as long as possible? (Perhaps even until the summer of 2025...?)
why do this. Have you got a problem with sip/voip/digital voice?
There is no telecare device on the line, but a small white lie could be told about that... however I guess it's feasible BT (or OR) could be analysing landline usage to detect if there is indeed an active telecare device using the line (presumably such devices 'phone home' at fairly regular intervals).
Whos line?
I think I recall reading something somewhere by someone explaining that they had successfully put off BT switching a service to DV on more than one occasion, but they just had to be on the ball and call up customer services each time BT got in touch (by letter I think) scheduling a switch, in order to pro-actively opt-out of the process (even after already having done so some months previously). However maybe this was in BT's initial period of (over-)eagerness to get people to switch over to DV.
Ahhh the "something somewhere where somebody said something that they did" - thats worse than "it worked for me"
For the vast majority who want to still have a phone line, digital voice is fine - its not perfect. For those who need flexibility and unbundle their phone from their internet connection its a perfect time to do so.
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There has been a debate in parliament on the problems encountered, the response for the minister in dec 2023 was this.
The Minister for Data and Digital Infrastructure John Whittingdale MP set out several steps he is now taking:
The Government is meeting with a particular provider concerned with the failure of telecare devices and asking for an urgent investigation.
Forced migration is to be paused.
Ofcom to conduct more in-depth monitoring of the digital telephone switchover.
Instigating a roundtable with all telecommunications providers, asking them to sign a commitments charter in relation to the switchover.
Further guidance from Ofcom on power resilience and a cross sector definition of vulnerability.
A review of Ofcom guidance on the efficacy of a 1 hour battery back up solution.
Data sharing between telecommunications firms and telecare providers to better identify vulnerable customers.
The minister confirmed he was unhappy with some of the assurances he had received from providers and was now working to remedy the situation moving forward.
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I understand some may have an issue switching to Digital Voice because of special equipment connected to their copper line that needs to be upgraded but those who are finding ways to delay the migration for no good reason are just being obstructive to the process. Its happening so everyone who can should find ways to make it as seamless as possible.
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I will be resisting moving to Digital Voice for as long as possible and have had the initial email announcing its approach. So I guess I will find out soon.
Things were better under Labour.
Edited by FibreBubble (Fri 22-Mar-24 12:41:33)
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I switched from copper to DV with Zen when I was still on VDSL. Shortly afterwards CF fibre became available (still Zen) and I've been on that since. No problems whatsoever and for a reasonably heavy user the £6/month for 1000 UK minutes is good value. As we use the landline phone very little but must keep our 40-year old number I'll be moving to a low-cost VoIP provider when my DV contract ends, and save a few pounds per month.
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I have no aversion to DV, but what is not good is losing all digital connectivity, including DV, when there is a local power failure. This is why we keep ADSL links rather than move them all to FTTC. Had a recent example at a site where there was a wide area power failure. Site has maintained power so our end was fine and the ADSL stayed up, even though the TE concerned lost mains power. Premises that were on FTTC were less fortunate. Of course, you need an ISP who pays for maintained power for their ADSL racks.......
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FTTC cabinets have UPS's built into them, to give a few hours resilience, though.
What applications are you using that are so mission-critical you're keeping them on ADSL simply to protect against power failures ?
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FTTC cabinets have batteries in them which are supposed to give several hours of backup, however I have seen posts where the battery backup only lasts for a much shorter time of say 30 minutes which is not much use. I guess that Openreach are letting the batteries degrade over a few years of use and not replacing them. 
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Battery theft is an ongoing issue
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FTTC cabinets have batteries in them which are supposed to give several hours of backup, however I have seen posts where the battery backup only lasts for a much shorter time of say 30 minutes which is not much use. I guess that Openreach are letting the batteries degrade over a few years of use and not replacing them.
From personal experience (back in 2016) the batteries in our FTTC cabinet carried on for about 5 hours.
My understanding is line cards (or whatever they are called) inside the FTTC cabinets shut down ports if they don't 'see' a router at the other end ? Therefore, the power draw of the cabinet is affected by the number of dead routers that it's serving ?
If a power cut affects all the homes the cabinet is serving, than the whole cabinet effectively goes into standby ?
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I get a lot of power cuts and can confirm the FTTC lasts around 5 hours. Whereas the telephone exchange usually has around 200 litres of diesel to burn. So the copper phone line is more reliable for me and I will resist the change.
Things were better under Labour.
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I get a lot of power cuts and can confirm the FTTC lasts around 5 hours. Whereas the telephone exchange usually has around 200 litres of diesel to burn. So the copper phone line is more reliable for me and I will resist the change.
The problem will go away when you have FTTP of course.
You can keep your existing DSL service, but come Dec 2025 you won't be able to change service provider or regrade the service (if SOGEA is available to you, SOTAP will not be).
So your best course of action would be to set yourself up now with a DSL provider who gives quality of service and out-of-contract pricing that you're happy with, and you're reasonably confident is not going to drop DSL as a product. That might be difficult.
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I get a lot of power cuts and can confirm the FTTC lasts around 5 hours. Whereas the telephone exchange usually has around 200 litres of diesel to burn. So the copper phone line is more reliable for me and I will resist the change.
The problem will go away when you have FTTP of course.
You can keep your existing DSL service, but come Dec 2025 you won't be able to change service provider or regrade the service (if SOGEA is available to you, SOTAP will not be).
So your best course of action would be to set yourself up now with a DSL provider who gives quality of service and out-of-contract pricing that you're happy with, and you're reasonably confident is not going to drop DSL as a product. That might be difficult.
That's 'Hobson's Choice' isn't it ? I think TalkTalk being an LLU provider are still doing 'analogue' landlines, but how long after Dec 2025 they will be able to continue that (without Openreach 'having a word') is open to question !
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I think TalkTalk being an LLU provider are still doing 'analogue' landlines, but how long after Dec 2025 they will be able to continue that (without Openreach 'having a word') is open to question !
What you mean is, how long before OFCOM allows Openreach to withdraw the LLU product entirely (and the exchange space/power rental service).
I would expect this comes as part of the exchange closure programme - which is going very slowly indeed. Only 3 trial exchanges so far.
However, TalkTalk could decide to remove their MSANs earlier than that, when they get their own digital voice service sorted out, and when the customer volumes for ADSL are too low to be worth bothering with.
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I have been on Full Fibre 900 and DV for 20 months with no problems whatsoever.
For some reason I was also provided with 3 digital home phones at no cost which work brilliantly together. Internal calls plus 3 external calls at once. I had 5 wired phones connected to my copper line and a simple £1.99 cable between the router and any copper line socket, means they all still work too.
A couple of days after that debate in Parliament, I had an unexpected phone call from BT - since I am 80 years old they consider me to be vunerable and needed 2 backup batteries for the system. A CyberPower Battery Back-up (BT1)for the smart hub and a C.P.B.P. (BT2) for the O.T.N. arrived by courier next day.
24 hours battery charging and 10 minutes installing and I have 3 hours backup for phone, internet and local WiFi for our iPhones and Ipads
What is not to like ?
________________________________________________________
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Exchange closures will be interesting as to what happens to people on xDSL, you might say FTTP but many areas have no Openreach FTTP plans.
In FTTP areas its logical, but we fast heading towards a two tier internet divide bigger than before with large parts of cities with no coverage, and many MDUs unable to order FTTP.
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Exchange closures will be interesting as to what happens to people on xDSL, you might say FTTP but many areas have no Openreach FTTP plans.
For those on a DSL service, the fibre that goes to the exchange now (that in my case is 75 metres from the cabinet) would be moved to an exchange/aggregation point further away...
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Exchange closures will be interesting as to what happens to people on xDSL, you might say FTTP but many areas have no Openreach FTTP plans.
In FTTP areas its logical, but we fast heading towards a two tier internet divide bigger than before with large parts of cities with no coverage, and many MDUs unable to order FTTP. Only ADSL versions of broadband are affected by the mass exchange closures as they typically come from local (non headend) exchanges whereas both VDSL and FTTP come from headend exchanges which are not the target for these closures.
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Exchange closures will be interesting as to what happens to people on xDSL, you might say FTTP but many areas have no Openreach FTTP plans.
Fibre to FTTC cabinets comes from headend exchanges, not local exchanges. Therefore, local exchange closure has no impact on them.
The small number of users on exchange-only lines on ADSL will of course need to be offered some alternative solution before the exchange is closed. That could be FTTP, or it might be 4G/5G (as permitted by the BT broadband USO).
As for "many areas have no Openreach FTTP plans": plans only run 1 or 2 years into the future. Three or four times a year, Openreach update their published plans and add new exchange areas. By Dec 2026, 85% of properties are expected to have FTTP available, with an aim of 30 million properties (about 93%) by 2030.
In FTTP areas its logical, but we fast heading towards a two tier internet divide bigger than before with large parts of cities with no coverage, and many MDUs unable to order FTTP.
There's no need for fearmongering. Nobody is going to be unplugged without a replacement service.
Exchange closures aren't going to start happening in any scale until well into 2030's, and the MDU issue will also be solved by then.
I would like to see Openreach given the right to perform a like-for-like swap of existing copper with fibre service - but the thing which would stop that is that Altnets complaining it gives Openreach an unfair advantage. I would expect that in the end, either parliament will allow leaseholders the right to get any FTTP installed without landlord permission, or it will reform/replace leasehold completely (as has already been mooted).
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I would like to see Openreach given the right to perform a like-for-like swap of existing copper with fibre service - but the thing which would stop that is that Altnets complaining it gives Openreach an unfair advantage.
Well said.
The last piece of your statement seems reminiscent of what came before Openreach’s formation … LLU unbundlers moaning about unfair advantage …
What goes around, comes around.
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Whilst I appreciate the reply, I am not fearmongering, just raising questions for what I considered to be valid concerns.
No plans means no public plans, this may or may not change by 2030, but as long as its no plans I think the question is valid. I have also seen plans 4 years ahead forecasted from Openreach.
Good news FTTC wont be impacted though.
Your comment on leaseholders should apply for the legal occupier. That would then cover both leaseholders and tenants.
Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 02-May-24 01:17:38)
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Exchange closures will be interesting as to what happens to people on xDSL, you might say FTTP but many areas have no Openreach FTTP plans.
In FTTP areas its logical, but we fast heading towards a two tier internet divide bigger than before with large parts of cities with no coverage, and many MDUs unable to order FTTP.
Many different plans’ conflated together I suspect, the PSTN switch off isn’t the same as FTTP rollout and exchange closure program , the PSTN switch off is the closest to completion , switching off the PSTN equipment in an exchange doesn’t close the exchange, if there are ADSL customers, they continue to be served from that exchange via SoTAP , any telephony only customers have a solution delivered from the exchange building….as stated no one is arbitrarily being told they can’t have service anymore, even for those not using FTTC or FTTP just because PSTN is retired
Edited by Iniltous (Thu 02-May-24 08:44:45)
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Whilst I appreciate the reply, I am not fearmongering, just raising questions for what I considered to be valid concerns. I think you are putting all your eggs in the FTTP basket but the local exchange closures are not wholly dependant on FTTP being available.
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I susppect things will change, the smaller compact cbt, could mean we have cbts within larger mdus, one entry point many connections.
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Do you think these exchange closures would be happening if there was no Openreach FTTP rollout?
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Do you think these exchange closures would be happening if there was no Openreach FTTP rollout? The Openreach exchange closures are to do with the PSTN being switched off which leaves vast empty buildings (I appreciate some other kit does exist in them) across the UK that they don't need to lease anymore which has nothing to do with FTTP, also the PSTN switch off means switching to Digital Voice services which is also not dependant on FTTP so to answer your question yes I believe the Openreach exchange closures would still be happening even without FTTP.
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Obviously if there were no FTTP there would be no way to reduce the number of exchange buildings to any extent , and would be somewhat pointless exercise , but the closure of PSTN is just one step ( of many steps) along the way to a vastly reduced number of ‘exchange’ buildings that FTTP makes possible , but it’s a long journey,
Exchange buildings that don’t house FTTP OLT equipment , still have a myriad of other live services, Ethernet connectivity, LLU equipment, ADSL DSLAM etc , so will be ‘live’ buildings possibly for decades after the PSTN switch off , but FTTP does enable a program to reduce these buildings to a fraction of the current estate.
Given enough time , and the rearranging/ retirement of other services , most buildings will be surplus to requirements, but that’s way off ( decades in some cases ) , certainly no one today should be concerned that the PSTN switch off and no FTTP access on the horizon signals them being denied services,
Edited by Iniltous (Thu 02-May-24 13:57:18)
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Obviously if there were no FTTP there would be no way to reduce the number of exchange buildings
That's not obvious at all.
The vast majority of people get broadband service from FTTC cabinets, which are served from fibre aggregation nodes not local exchanges, so are unaffected by closure of local exchanges.
Closing local exchange buildings requires:
1. switching off the analogue telephony (underway)
2. replacement service for users on ADSL with "exchange-only" lines.
3. removal of LLU providers
4. migration of any other services hosted in a local exchange (e.g. leased line nodes)
None of that depends on FTTP. Point (2) could be implemented using FTTP, but could also be done by rerouting lines to FTTC cabinets, or even 4G/5G.
Whether LLU providers will agree to remove equipment *before* an exchange becomes fibre priority / copper stop sell is unclear. But market forces mean that an ever decreasing number of people are taking ADSL service, and eventually it will become uneconomic for them to serve a small ADSL user base when the majority have moved to FTTC. They are likely to remove it without compulsion.
As I understand it, newly installed leased lines are being routed via fibre aggregation nodes already. There will certainly be a non-trivial amount of work to reroute existing leased lines, but the high charges will easily cover the costs.
To say this will take "decades" is probably not too far off the truth ("a decade" might be closer), but the point is that it could have been done independently of FTTP rollout.
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Obviously if there were no FTTP there would be no way to reduce the number of exchange buildings to any extent , and would be somewhat pointless exercise , but the closure of PSTN is just one step ( of many steps) along the way to a vastly reduced number of ‘exchange’ buildings that FTTP makes possible , but it’s a long journey,
Exchange buildings that don’t house FTTP OLT equipment , still have a myriad of other live services, Ethernet connectivity, LLU equipment, ADSL DSLAM etc , so will be ‘live’ buildings possibly for decades after the PSTN switch off , but FTTP does enable a program to reduce these buildings to a fraction of the current estate. I don't agree with you on this one mate, you have fallen into the trap of thinking exchange closures are dependant on FTTP which they are not.
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You explained it a lot better than me 
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In my attempt to simplify , a poor choice of words was used , if my statement was if there was no fibre infrastructure ( FTTC and FTTP , delivered from the same place hence the over simplistic terminology) then the exchange program wouldn’t be a thing , however I appreciate that in a forum like this , a poorly worded entry opened the door to pedantry, however the thrust of my argument remains , to the poster primarily concerned that no FTTP and PSTN switch off means no service , and that I’m sure we agree is nonsense
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Which leads to another question, do you think there would be a PSTN switch off if there was no Openreach FTTP Rollout.
Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 02-May-24 18:43:43)
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If you referring to me, I asked a question, and posted thoughts on potential victims of what I believed to be happening.
I of course welcome being informed of things I dont know, but there is no need for things like "you fearmongering", which seemed such a bizarre reply. I appreciated hunnymonster and PCJM40 gave me straight up answers.
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Which leads to another question, do you think there would be a PSTN switch off if there was no Openreach FTTP Rollout.
The PSTN equipment is around 40 years old and hasn’t been manufactured for years , in some respects the falling number of telephone customers is fortunate as exchange rationalisation means spares that would be impossible to source are available so a creaking network can be kept afloat , the Luddites that want to remain with what they have probably don’t appreciate that , so the current equipment is well past its useful life.
In an alternative reality where not just in his country but internationally fibre wasn’t plentiful and extremely cheap and the public demand for massive bandwidth didn’t exist , exchanges probably would just get a generational change , Strowger , TXE , TXD and then something ‘new’ but the reality is telephony now is the add on , not the main product , so no need to be tied to the existing structure
, I suppose in a way , if technology existed to push the equivalent bandwidth that fibre can handle down a copper pair , then the the chances are although the equipment would be different the locations of the buildings would remain, PSTN would still be obsolete though .
Edited by Iniltous (Thu 02-May-24 19:51:54)
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Thats a very good point, eventually they would be forced to end up making the same decision with it increasingly becoming harder to maintain.
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Which leads to another question, do you think there would be a PSTN switch off if there was no Openreach FTTP Rollout. Yes I do, its certainly easier because of the FTTP rollout but I don't believe its dependant on the FTTP rollout.
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Why are you so worried about digital voice.
If you go to a VOIP provider you can move your landline to your mobile and take your phone number with you.
DV has so many advantages over PTSN I dont understand why you are so afraid of it.
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Why are you so worried about digital voice.
If you go to a VOIP provider you can move your landline to your mobile and take your phone number with you.
DV has so many advantages over PTSN I dont understand why you are so afraid of it.
Why don't you read the thread, when you have a relative who thinks carrying a flat mobile with no credit will help him if his car breaks down, I'd love to know how transferring a VoIP service to it would help.
Myself I do have a VoIP number.
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Thank you for your answers.
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how does PTSN help him if he is carrying a flat mobile with no credit if his car breaks down ????
having a flat mobile battery with no credit is nothing to do with VOIP plus most people who actually have phones are intelligent enough to charge them
on the credit side with voip you can forward your call to your mobile or use wifi to connect to your DV line. with PTSN you cant cant cheaply forward calls to mobile or use wifi at all to access your landline.
my actual point was voip is much more versatile than the 100 year old PTSN network.
of the 40 million mobile phones out there I bet ones with constant flat batteries are minimal.
and I did read the full thing it went as usual away from the actual op post to loads of stuff about FTTP.
Edited by pyarwood (Sat 04-May-24 12:24:27)
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Post deleted by burble
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For me landline voice has been dead for a decade or so, Mobile just plain superseded it. Legacy fees like connection fees and line rental made land lines uncompetitive, and on top of that its just usable in your home, whilst a mobile its in your home and out and about.
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For me landline voice has been dead for a decade or so, Mobile just plain superseded it. Legacy fees like connection fees and line rental made land lines uncompetitive, and on top of that its just usable in your home, whilst a mobile its in your home and out and about.
Now we have finally got WiFi calling working on both our phones on two different networks, then the landline is becoming virtually redundant. When our current contract ends will drop the call plan so it's there just for the rellies who insist on calling it.
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Now we have finally got WiFi calling working on both our phones on two different networks, then the landline is becoming virtually redundant. When our current contract ends will drop the call plan so it's there just for the rellies who insist on calling it. Over recent years I've kept a free VOIP incoming service solely for one extremely elderly relative who didn't want to call a mobile but as she has recently passed away I will be ditching that now as everyone else calls the mobile.
Edited by PCJM40 (Sun 05-May-24 09:48:28)
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Now we have finally got WiFi calling working on both our phones on two different networks, then the landline is becoming virtually redundant. When our current contract ends will drop the call plan so it's there just for the rellies who insist on calling it. Over recent years I've kept a free VOIP incoming service solely for one extremely elderly relative who didn't want to call a mobile but as she has recently passed away I will be ditching that now as everyone else calls the mobile.
I set up VoIP with Sipgate with the intension of porting my landline number and using the basic package until such time as we got wifi calling working, then was going to use it for receiving calls only, was using it for a couple of weeks to ensure everything was fine when they dropped the basic package, so put that on hold, gf often calls me on it, but it's a superfluous number now.
Meanwhile gf and myself had problems with wifi calling, mine was solved ages ago with a new phone and using 1p mobile on EE network, but gf's only got solved this year after misleading info from Lebara.
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BTW, nearly forgot to mention, it's nearly 20 years since I first had a VoIP account!
It was after reading the Zoom X5 review that I brought one and used GlobalVillage with a handset plugged into the router, I would use it to phone my uncle in Australia but dropped as we moved to using Skype, back then calls could sometimes be like sitting in a echo chamber, and one reason I spent some time evaluating the call quality on Sipgate.
Edited by burble (Tue 07-May-24 10:30:37)
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