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Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Thu 17-Mar-11 16:57:18
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Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[link to this post]
 
When did BT engineers call out fees change? Iíve never had to pay anything because on both occasions they visited (2005 and 2006) they located a line or exchange issue. An engineer is coming to me on Monday. The upfront charge is £230 + VAT. If a fault is detected Iíll be refunded a mere £95 + VAT.

______________________________________
IDNet

Sync: Was 8128 / 896 + kbps; now interleaved at 8096/896 kbps
IP Profile was 7150 kbps; now 7000 kbps
SNR Margin: 15-12.5 dB
Line Attenuation: 20.0 dB
SpeedTouch 585

I am approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)
Standard User andygegg
(newbie) Thu 17-Mar-11 18:01:19
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
I had an engineer out a few weeks ago (about a month) because the BB connection kept dying. No charge was made.
Standard User Rockh
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 17-Mar-11 18:52:24
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
Provided the fault is on the BT network you won't pay anything, it's only if a fault is found on your setup that you'll incur charges. They don't charge upfront, it's retrospective, you just have to be told that there will be a charge etc.

Dave


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Standard User Banger
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 17-Mar-11 20:49:35
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
Hope this isn't the new norm. I had a voice fault a few months back, no charge.

Tim
ZeN & freenetname
recapped ST546v6 on 8 Meg Active
Check my bad boy speeds out on ZeN
Standard User Rockh
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 17-Mar-11 21:21:50
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: Banger] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately BTOR has to earn money from somewhere.
Had a fault on the pole which feeds my house after the snow, one of the neighbours reported their line and quite a few of us soon after. Everyone of us has commented on one of the first lines from the BTOR eng, you may be charged etc etc. You'd think BT would be able to tell when the bulk of the consumers fed from one pole complain and consolidate the faults rather than multiple ones with different staff.

I have to admit that in the 20 odd years I've dealt with BTOR through work they cause more headaches now than they ever have.

Dave
Standard User GeeTee
(member) Thu 17-Mar-11 22:56:01
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
That's really a question to pose to your service provider.

Openreach's charges are publically available here:
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricin...

No substantial changes since 2009.

In a repair scenario Openreach (OR) levy charges onto the service provider (SP) if the fault is proved not to be on their network i.e. not on the copper line and associated exchange jumpering. So a fault caused by something in the end user premises or by the SP's equipment in the exchange would be chargeable. If the SP elects to arrange an OR engineer visit to their end user's premises then it can get expensive if the fault is not an OR responsibility fault.

Choosing to send an OR engineer is the SP's choice.

SP's pass on these charges to customers as they see fit.

As stated elsewhere in this thread, if OR find a fault on their infrastructure then no charge is levied on the SP, unless the SP has requested an engineer visit outside the constraints of the agreed service contract (e.g. expedited out of hours visit for a standard care circuit).

The charging structure is quite complicated depending on what product and service level the SP is paying OR for. I'm not aware of any scenario where OR requires an upfront payment.

Care to elaborate on who your supplier is, what product (voice / dsl / something else) you have the fault with and the nature of the fault?
Standard User GeeTee
(member) Thu 17-Mar-11 23:07:10
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: Rockh] [link to this post]
 
BTOR doesn't cause the headaches. The way they operate is symptomatic of the position they have been forced into by the other carriers / providers and associated OFCOM regulatory meddling to open up competition. The marketing driven race for the lowest price point that dominates the residential consumer telecoms market is what has caused the headache. Or more correctly - the publics' appetite for buying products using solely price as a decision factor is what has caused the headache.

BTOR engineers have to rattle that possibly chargeable line out because it's not within Openreach's control what fees the service providers charge their customers.

What were you dealing with Openreach (part of the BT Group) for 20 years ago?
Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Thu 17-Mar-11 23:33:42
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: GeeTee] [link to this post]
 
I canít post the full IDNet email here but it appears that even if a fault is found by BT, I will only be refunded £95 + VAT. This leaves me will a bill of £160 (inc VAT). (This figure would go some way towards setting up a cable network.) I might try to cancel the call-out. I just donít think I can afford to retain IDNet/BT at this sort of price.

The fault is sync drops usually but not 100% of the time when phones are in use. Iíve spend 2 weeks trouble shooting the issue described here:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/idnet/3978055-what-...

Things Iíve tried:

· Use of the test socket behind the master to rule out internal wiring
· New micro-filters
· Change of router
· New router (bringing the total used to 3)
· New telephones
· Additional surge protectors

I've spent over £100 already.

Itís agreed thereís nothing further I can do but tests so far reveal nothing amiss.

______________________________________
IDNet

Sync: Was 8128 / 896 + kbps; now interleaved at 8096/896 kbps
IP Profile was 7150 kbps; now 7000 kbps
SNR Margin: 15-12.5 dB
Line Attenuation: 20.0 dB
SpeedTouch 585

I am approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)
Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Thu 17-Mar-11 23:45:48
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: Rockh] [link to this post]
 
My story seems quite unusual, then:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/btsupplier/t/398200...

______________________________________
IDNet

Sync: Was 8128 / 896 + kbps; now interleaved at 8096/896 kbps
IP Profile was 7150 kbps; now 7000 kbps
SNR Margin: 15-12.5 dB
Line Attenuation: 20.0 dB
SpeedTouch 585

I am approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)
Standard User GeeTee
(member) Fri 18-Mar-11 00:21:53
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
I can't comment on IDNET's charging policy, it's up to them what they charge their customers.

Sync drop on phone usage can be attributed to 1 of 3 things in 99%+ cases:
1. Problematic end user internal cabling or high frequency interference on said cabling by other devices
2. Faulty micro-filters
3. High Resistance Disconnect fault on the copper line (a.k.a. HR Dis)

Testing from the test socket of the master socket behind the face plate rules out 1. and 2. provided:
a. an alternate / known good microfilter, rj11 and router are also tested
b. No previous occupant has wired up something to the connections in the main body of the master socket (alarm system and SKY installers of days gone by are common culprits).


The HR Dis condition is notoriously hard to diagnose without an engineer visit as it requires a double ended line test - i.e. test equipment in place in the exchange and the engineer able to plug more test equipment in to your master socket.

The single ended line test that is carried out by any exchange based test system - be that provide by BT or any other LLU operator will never achieve the same level of accuracy in this particular scenario.


What causes an HR Dis you ask? Typically a single joint on the copper between you and the exchange that is corroding due to moisture ingress. They generally get worse over time, ultimately ending in a complete loss of voice service when the corroding copper finally breaks - this can take many years. In early days they cause DSL related problems when voice calls occur due to the increased voltage on the line and the altered properties of the corroding copper modulating the voice signal up into the DSL frequency, swamping it for the duration of the call.

A good OR engineer will sort this easily with some legwork between cabinets to track it down. A not so good one will walk in, do a pair quality test, declare all is fine and leave as your dsl synchs on his test.

Wish you luck!
Standard User GeeTee
(member) Fri 18-Mar-11 01:22:42
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
Openreach does not charge end users directly, they charge service providers i.e. the company you pay for your voice service or DSL service - or the company your provider buys services from (reseller).

Your SP charges you - the criteria used to pass on (or not) charges differs between SPs.

It's a complex market - some providers of services have a direct relationship with Openreach, others resell products of those direct providers, others resell products of those resellers and so on.

The resold channel is 4 or 5 tiers deep in places as the VARs (Value Add Resellers) get involved - these are the guys that bundle up your voice, data, VPN & IT hardware needs into one price point. This seems bad in that it removes you further from your actual underlying connectivity provider. Then the bean counters take a look at how the sums can be pushed into capex and the tax advantage of putting the whole deal on finance and offseting the interest against taxable profit.

I digressed....
Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Fri 18-Mar-11 06:28:02
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: GeeTee] [link to this post]
 
Thanks smile Both your responses have been most helpful.

______________________________________
IDNet

I am approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)
Standard User Rockh
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 20-Mar-11 18:31:02
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: GeeTee] [link to this post]
 
DEL's, PW's, Megastreams, you name it we use it, alot less these days as we are expanding our own comm's network massively to mitigate BT's 21CN's issues, not exactly time critical stuff friendly.

Dave
Standard User ste__
(experienced) Wed 23-Mar-11 21:41:28
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
Not sure if you've got sorted but, after changing modems, filters cables and god knows what else... I discovered my Broadband would stay on when the lights in my house were OFF.. I later whittled it down to a duff transformer for these new stupid low power lights you have to have these days crazy Might be worth checking stuff like that out too if you haven't done so already!?

Just as well I didnt report a line fault given these call-out charges..! :/

--
schadenfreude n. the malicious enjoyment of another's misfortunes

A happy PlusNetter crazy

Edited by ste__ (Wed 23-Mar-11 21:41:45)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 24-Mar-11 18:36:50
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: Rockh] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rockh:
Provided the fault is on the BT network you won't pay anything, it's only if a fault is found on your setup that you'll incur charges. They don't charge upfront, it's retrospective, you just have to be told that there will be a charge etc.


The impression I get is they will initially look for a fault on customer equipment, if one is found then any investigation stops there and a charge is raised. If it were me if I am going to pay for a callout I would insist on full checks been made before I handover a penny. I would also want a paper receipt of such work.
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Fri 25-Mar-11 09:17:43
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
On my last line fault BT's first test was to start 'my side' of the NTE5 - he got a "strange" reading on his machine - "the problem is in the house".

I told him to just stick it in the TEST SOCKET and see what that says - "oh yeah there's a line problem" and replaced damaged cable in the road!

frown

Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Mon 28-Mar-11 19:41:24
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by b4dger:
On my last line fault BT's first test was to start 'my side' of the NTE5 - he got a "strange" reading on his machine - "the problem is in the house".

I told him to just stick it in the TEST SOCKET and see what that says - "oh yeah there's a line problem" and replaced damaged cable in the road!


Strange - when I had an SFI visit last summer, the first thing he did was unscrew the face plate from the NTE5 and connect his box to the test socket - whilst explaining to me that if this test passed, the problem was in the premises. Took him a while but he found the problem on the BT line - perils of living in a block of flats, one fault was in the corner of a random cupboard in the communal area. General decay.

James - be* pro - on THFB - sync about 17.2mbps - BQM
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Tue 29-Mar-11 12:10:22
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Yep - that sounds the right way to do it to me!

I had the test socket already exposed so it was up to BT which side they decided to test first. It would be more professional to ensure 'their side of things' is without fault first but I guess it's all down to the individual engineer.

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Mar-11 18:57:07
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
the problem with that kind of test is its no good for finding intermment faults. Also if the fault doesnt stop connecting but just a reduction in sync speed they will deem it as fine.
Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Thu 31-Mar-11 12:43:28
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: ste__] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your interest. I donít know whether Iím sorted or not. Certainly, my issue had nothing to do with lights on/off switches of any household appliance.

My line is not what is was before this issue started on 3 March. My ISP ran a copper line test on 18th and reported that this check was failing. Another fault was logged with BT. A week later, BT replied that their network tests suggested nothing amiss. I am not prepared to meet fees of the kind quoted...or even risk it. That sort of money would finance a cable set up--- though thatís not really something I want.

Looking on the bright side, though, since 25th, Iíve only had one sync dropóand that had nothing to do with use of telephones that had been the dominant albeit not sole factor. Curiously, BT are currently hard at work in my exchange with PEWs from 28/3-4/4/11.

______________________________________
IDNet

I am approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)
Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Thu 31-Mar-11 12:48:19
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Intermittency. Thatís probably why BT network tests are not finding a problem despite my failing a copper line test run by my ISP. Thereís no pattern to the issue and, up till now, the disconnections have been a nuisance (leading to interleaving and slightly reduced speeds) rather than no service (as I experienced back in 2005 when my line card died.)

______________________________________
IDNet

I am approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)
Standard User GeeTee
(member) Thu 31-Mar-11 13:04:40
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
It is not down to the individual engineer. The SFI engineer visit is very clearly defined by Openreach in how it should proceed. The first thing the engineer should do is a pair quality test from the NTE5.
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Fri 01-Apr-11 11:16:16
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Re: Cost of BT Engineer call-outs


[re: GeeTee] [link to this post]
 
Well going by my experience I guess it's down to the individual engineer if they follow OR's procedures! tongue

Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Sun 03-Apr-11 12:08:38
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Re: Thought I was sorted butÖ


[re: ste__] [link to this post]
 
No sync drops for a full week despite regular incoming/outgoing phone calls. (The last disconnection before that had no phone association.) Then, this morning, I make a call. Nine-second disconnection. frown I make a couple more calls and the line holds. Weird.

______________________________________
IDNet
TP-Link 150M Wireless Lite N
Sync: 8128/ 928
SNR: 15-13 dB
Line Attenuation: 22 dB
Approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)

Edited by ARD (Sun 03-Apr-11 12:10:42)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 03-Apr-11 13:49:27
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Re: Thought I was sorted butÖ


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
Not the router then?



______________________________________________________________________________attack_the_post_not_the_poster__________________
Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Sun 03-Apr-11 14:02:31
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Re: Thought I was sorted butÖ


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Not the router...not unless I have 3 faulty routers.
Not the filters...not unless I have 2 packs of faulty filters.
Not my phones...not unless the 2 new ones are faulty along with the two discarded phones.
Not wiring either...not unless the test socket is wired badly (and that would be down to BT)

Made a few more calls....no further sync drop. My ISP ran a copper line test on 18th and reported that this check was failing. Another fault was logged with BT. A week later, BT replied that their network tests suggested nothing amiss. Baffled.

______________________________________
IDNet
TP-Link 150M Wireless Lite N
Sync: 8128/ 928
SNR: 15-13 dB
Line Attenuation: 22 dB
Approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)

Edited by ARD (Sun 03-Apr-11 14:14:43)

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 03-Apr-11 18:44:48
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Re: Thought I was sorted butÖ


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
Soz, not been following this thread, is this a 21cn (up to 20) circuit you are on ? If so,
seen some like this round here, everything swapped out all the kit, line swapped completely, end to end, and 2 lift and shifts done, and PSTN equipment switched also. All to no avail, still get intermittent drops of sync during phone calls. I *believe* it's the 21cn DSLAM causing the problems, it never happened before on the 20cn stuff.

Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Mon 04-Apr-11 10:23:05
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Re: Thought I was sorted butÖ


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Yes. My line was upgraded to 21CN a year ago. However, there were no obvious problems until 3 March when my neighbours had their BT line reconnected after 13 years. BT botched the job. Their broadband is fine but they were without incoming phone calls for 2 weeks before another engineer came out to fix it.

EDIT: I made 4 phone calls in the last 40 minutes. The first resulted in a 13-second disconnection. The other 3 had no ill-effect. It's unlikely that BT's remote test facility could locate the problem. Even an engineer might have difficulty.

______________________________________
IDNet
TP-Link 150M Wireless Lite N
Profile: 7000 kbps (Interleaved)
Sync: 8128/ 928
SNR: 15-13 dB
Line Attenuation: 22 dB
Approximately 930 metres from the exchange (straight line distance)

Edited by ARD (Mon 04-Apr-11 12:35:50)

Standard User BP1
(committed) Mon 04-Apr-11 11:29:50
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Re: Thought I was sorted butÖ


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
Soz, not been following this thread, is this a 21cn (up to 20) circuit you are on ? If so,
seen some like this round here, everything swapped out all the kit, line swapped completely, end to end, and 2 lift and shift done, and PSTN equipment switched also. All to no avail, still get intermittent drops of sync during phone calls. I *believe* it's the 21cn DSLAM causing the problems, it never happened before on the 20cn stuff.


This is exactly what happened to me before christmas. BT upgraded to 21CN and ADSL2+. Had constant disconnects from the switch over. Router showed very high errors on upstream only and the disconnects only happened on incomming calls. Had 5 engineer visits. lift and shifts, equipment change but the problem remained. Currently on BT infinity which seems to have resolved everything.
I think your right that there must be problems on some lines with the 21cn product and the BT equipment which they are finding very difficult to find and resolve

Regards

BP1

BTBroadband

"When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane"
Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Tue 05-Apr-11 18:58:12
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Re: And it gets worse *DELETED*


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by seb

Edited by ARD (Tue 05-Apr-11 19:00:44)

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Thu 07-Apr-11 20:53:40
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Re: And it gets worse


[re: ARD] [link to this post]
 
*If* I'm right, then you need to find an ISP who have their own kit in the exchange. Otherwise your fault will just get migrated to your new service, as it retains it's BTw equipment. I guess If LLU isn't an option on your exchange, then I'd suggest A&A, or Zen, who are 'aggressive' in chasing faults on their customers behalf. Both UK based call centres also.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Standard User ARD
(knowledge is power) Wed 08-Jun-11 08:28:00
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Re: The update you requested, Sir....


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I've just posted on the AAISP forum:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/aaisp/t/4009184-aai...

My thanks to you and many other TB users who took an interest in the case, posted detailed replies, and kept my spirits up smile
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