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Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Fri 15-Jul-11 22:46:19
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21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[link to this post]
 
We're with Eclipse Internet (Business Bronze) and for a few weeks now the status page on our account has been telling us we would change to the 21CN network on 15th July.
It's 10.30pm on that date as I type this and I don't see any change at all?
I have tried restarting the router, several times now, but there is no difference in the speedtests I'm doing. If anything, the speed has dropped a little.
We are on exchange MYTHN if that is important. Samknows tells me it is 21CN enabled and I can only imagine that Eclipse were given the date to be able to show that on our account.
I did an address check in Samknows, it reports "BT 21CN services available" and showed the exchange as being "2837m away".
Am I missing something in making the new service become available?
The BT phone line was disconnected for a short while over lunch, I know as I was on the phone went it went dead for a couple of minutes. That was 10 hours ago.
Maybe I should not just accept that today was the day, but I cannot find any place to check the details. How do I know what sort of connection I have?
Speed has dropped from 4.3Mbps to 3.7Mbps down and 373kbps down to 282kbps between 6pm and 10.20pm.
I'm heading for home, much too late to stick around the office. I only stayed in case anything had to be done with the equipment so as not to leave services off-line over the weekend or anything.
Any clarification and/or information welcome. Thanks
Standard User uno
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 15-Jul-11 23:43:57
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
It is possible and likely that Eclipse did a migration to 21CN but kept you on an ADSL1 profile. If so, you may not see any benefit until it is regraded to 2+.

Matt

-
uno Broadband
t: 0808 221 8642
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Manchester Speedtest.net Host
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 00:15:03
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
Disconnecting and reconnecting several times close together is likely to make the system think your line is unstable, and adjust your line to a lower default speed to stabilise it. I advise you not to do that again on Monday.

Also, connections made when it is dark are almost always slower than ones made during daylight. That in itself probably explains your gradual decline.

Given the 4.3Mbps speed you quoted, it is highly unlikely ADSL2+ will make any difference at all to your speed. In fact, you might even find, given a suitable router or wised-up support, the best for you would be ADSL2, not 2+.

If you can find and post the full line stats on Monday, taken immediately after connecting, or re-connecting, see here for help, we may be able to tell if you are on ADSL2+, and also advise further.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 16-Jul-11 00:19:23)


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Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Sat 16-Jul-11 01:00:00
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by uno:
It is possible and likely that Eclipse did a migration to 21CN but kept you on an ADSL1 profile. If so, you may not see any benefit until it is regraded to 2+.

Thanks - I've dropped a line to support to see what they say as well.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Disconnecting and reconnecting several times close together is likely to make the system think your line is unstable, and adjust your line to a lower default speed to stabilise it. I advise you not to do that again on Monday.

The resets were at least an hour apart, the BT speed test does not allow you to test more often than that. I'll not reset again until I have some positiver reason to do so.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Also, connections made when it is dark are almost always slower than ones made during daylight. That in itself probably explains your gradual decline.

I didn't know that, learning all the time.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Given the 4.3Mbps speed you quoted, it is highly unlikely ADSL2+ will make any difference at all to your speed. In fact, you might even find, given a suitable router or wised-up support, the best for you would be ADSL2, not 2+.

Ah, I'll see how it pans out. It was just with being told this was going to happen, then there was nothing noticable.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
If you can find and post the full line stats on Monday, taken immediately after connecting, or re-connecting, we may be able to tell if you are on ADSL2+, and also advise further.

This is an always on system. I've not closed down for the weekend as others will be working there. I'll not be in myself to do anything. I do have remote access so can look at stats that way if I need to
The router is a Tenda, the Kitz site says "Unfortunately there doesnt appear to be a way to get full stats from the web interface frown". I've only recently installed this after our old Philips box stopped letting us access anything.
Thanks for the help so far.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 09:19:47
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
The BT speed test reports the connection speeds and profiles now, as well as the throughput speeds. So those may give useful information, depending on whether or nor you are still on an ADSL Max "profile".

In my opinion it is almost certain that line drop was the switch-over. Even without the line stats you may find this graph interesting/discouraging. Look how close together ADSL and ADSL2+ are around 4.3Mbps, especially at the good line end.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Sat 16-Jul-11 09:23:49
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Here's what the BT speed tests say this morning. In particular I note the bits I have marked **
1. Best Effort Test
Download speedachieved during the test was - 4034 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5216 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 4500 Kbps

** 4000 Kbps
** Max Achievable Speed

2. Upstream Test:
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 334 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps


Previously, the max was showing something in the 7000's, it now seems to truncate.

So what you're saying is that despite the swap of technology, we will not see much difference?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 09:45:18
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
Those show, as Matt at uno suggested, that you are either still on ADSL(1), or on ADSL2+ with an ADSL(1) profile being applied to the line. Don't confuse this "profile" with IP Profiles. With some ISPs a change to ADSL2+ does require action by the ISP as well as the physical swap.

And yes, I'm saying it will make little difference anyway.

In fact at those line lengths ADSL2+ can be a pain, as it is inherently less stable. As I suggested before, ADSL2 may be the best for you - many of us have found this at speeds below 6Mbps. You get a small increase from ADSL1, effectively the same as you would from ADSL2+, but the stability is more like ADSL1.

The reason for this is that ADSL2+ uses double the number of downstream frequencies as ADSL1 and 2, with the bottom ones being common to all 3. The higher frequencies attenuate much faster with distance, hence the shape of that graph, and below about 5.5Mbps you probably hardly use them. They are also more susceptible to interference, even though not in use on long lines, so can cause instability. Which on BT Wholesale circuits is a pain because of the DLM.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 16-Jul-11 12:20:42
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In fact at those line lengths ADSL2+ can be a pain, as it is inherently less stable. As I suggested before, ADSL2 may be the best for you - many of us have found this at speeds below 6Mbps. You get a small increase from ADSL1, effectively the same as you would from ADSL2+, but the stability is more like ADSL1.


Agreed (although in my case the old ADSL1 was quite unstable - although I still put that down to the 1st generation Alcatel DSLAM to which I was connected).
In order of stability (for my line);
ADSL2 (forced via DGTeam firmware)
ADSL2+
ADSL1 (using the old connection as a gauge)

With a target margin of 3dB (even on such a long line), ADSL2 is WAY more stable than ADSL1 was with a 6dB margin (I think BE just use better DSLAMs than BT).

With ADSL2 forced, my current uptime is 21 days at a 3dB margin (almost unheard of from ADSL1, on my line, with a 6dB margin).

I also get a massive (not "small") speed increase over ADSL1.
With a 3dB target I'm currently connected at 4553kbps down; 1049kbps up (like I said; uptime is over 21 days).
With ADSL1, even during the middle of the day (when background noise was at its lowest) I could only ever get that type of speed with a target margin of less than 1dB (and the line would only hold sync for a few hours).

With ADSL1, the only way I could get a 21 day connection was to sync at around 3.5Mbps.
So; by switching to ADSL2, I have a 29% connection speed boost, translating to around 33% download speed boost (because BE don't use BT's stupid IP profiling system).

Ade

ADSL2+ with BE
DL Sync around 4.8Mbps
UL Sync 1088kbps

DG834GT with DGTeam firmware
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Sat 16-Jul-11 14:51:49
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
I'm not sure how we would define ADSL2 as a preference, or if we need to ask the ISP to set that up for us.
Looking at the checker results I am puzzled that it seems to be stunted at 4000kbps ("the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps") yet had recorded either "Download speedachieved during the test was - 4034 Kbps" or "Your DSL Connection Rate :5216 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM)". A few minutes ago thgose figures were 5116 and 5216.
I wonder how long before we can look at FTTC. The new street boxes are in place in our area, the nearest is about 90 metres away.
On Monday I will switch off and unplug the router then see what happened when I put it back on.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 22:46:21
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
The first thing you need is to get them to put you on ADSL2+ proper anyway, and see how that does. At the moment you aren't, even if the physical connection has been changed to ADSL2+-capable kit.

What make and model of router have you got? Some are not ADSL2+ capable anyway, and some that are can be easily altered to ADSL2 by the user.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Sun 17-Jul-11 01:24:03
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
As the 21CN change was only Friday I'll give Eclipse time to swap us over.

The router is a "TENDA W300D Wireless -N ADSL2+" according to the description on the order. I looked specifically for one marked ADSL2+. It wasn't too bad to set up and gives a good stable connection so far.

Not a major player, I know, but cost was an issue. I would have loved to get a box with more than 4 wired outlets to save having a hub attached.
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Tue 19-Jul-11 14:56:25
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
OK - ADSL2+ enabled, now showing a synch of 5280kbps down and 448kbps up.
We have to let it settle for a few days, I'm told.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/13110...
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Wed 20-Jul-11 13:51:42
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
I am a bit confused. Before the changeover I had results like:

1. Best Effort Test
Download speedachieved during the test was - 3572 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5408 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 4500 Kbps

7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

2. Upstream Test:
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 357 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps


now it shows:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 4097 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5280 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 4500 Kbps

4000 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 352 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps


The IP Profile rate stayed the same yet the max achievable has gone down, with a bang. The downstream DSL connection rate has dropped overall, but I really don't know what I'm looking for in these figures as the TBB speedtest results have hardly changed, I had 4.1kbps last week and 4.1kbps this week.

I'm just keeping an eye on it all, but was puzzled about that max achievable value.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 20-Jul-11 13:59:54
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
Just means the Database has updated with real data from your line, to show they expect you to vary between 1200 and 4000Kbps, so performing better than expected today.

Old figures were just the standard, we have no clue settings.

The things that have changed do nothing to alter your actual speed. Sometimes too many numbers causes to much angst.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Wed 20-Jul-11 15:15:41
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I'm starting to get the picture, take note of actual connection speed and ignore some of the other values as they don't mean a lot to the end user ?

I was an analyst/programmer in a previous role, we used a 64 character hex string in the INI file to control user access to certain programs, of which only 6 of those characters actually did anything !
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 20-Jul-11 20:14:54
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
The upload is still capped at 448kbps. That suggests still an ADSL1 profile but probably on a WBC (21CN/ADSL2+) line.

Or maybe Eclipse just don't give over 448 upload. Upload speeds either aren't on their website or are very well hidden.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 20-Jul-11 20:16:50)

Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Thu 21-Jul-11 17:25:26
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The upload is still capped at 448kbps.
I noticed that - I was wondering if the OP has actually moved to 21CN !
Or whether the problem is with the routers 20CN modulation or with the ISP as you say...

If I was the OP I would be asking my provider some questions smile

EDIT: http://www.eclipsenetworks.co.uk/broadband.php says "Up to 1.3mbps upload speed" so there shouldn't be an artificial cap.

From my experience Eclipse have pretty good customer services - sorry if I've missed any earlier comments in this thread as i've only speed read things wink

Edited by b4dger (Thu 21-Jul-11 17:30:25)

Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Fri 22-Jul-11 01:13:21
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by b4dger:
EDIT: http://www.eclipsenetworks.co.uk/broadband.php says ...

That's Eclipse Networks - we're with Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.net.uk/) as business bronze customers on this one.
I have a support call open so can go back to them to ask if what I am seeing isn't right.
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Jul-11 17:33:24
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
Too many Eclipse's ! blush

Remember to let us know what your provider says...

Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Fri 22-Jul-11 18:02:48
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TMCR:
The router is a Tenda, the Kitz site says "Unfortunately there doesnt appear to be a way to get full stats from the web interface frown".
Heve you tried experimenting with the CLI interface it suggested?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 15.6 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 16.8 Meg Untweaked WBC
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Fri 22-Jul-11 20:57:39
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by TMCR:
The router is a Tenda, the Kitz site says "Unfortunately there doesnt appear to be a way to get full stats from the web interface frown".
Heve you tried experimenting with the CLI interface it suggested?

It's a different Tenda router to the one on the Kitz site and yes, I did try the CLI suggestion - it would not do anything for me. I tried the open command, nothing.I have no idea what I'm doing there so didn't go any further.
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Fri 22-Jul-11 21:08:17
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by b4dger:
Too many Eclipse's ! blush

Remember to let us know what your provider says...

They advise leaving things as they are for now, they are seeing excessive 'errored seconds' and that could be causing a problem. They want to let the new connection settle before going further.

Latest report is
=========
Download speedachieved during the test was - 4139 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5280 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 4500 Kbps
=======
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 351 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps
==========
Standard User CJT
(committed) Fri 29-Jul-11 23:29:42
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
This appears to be the Instruction Manual,

http://www.tenda.cn/pdtData/update_en/User_guide/wir...

Not sure if anyone can decypher it

CJT.

tongue

ON BT Total Broadband .

My Broadband Speed Test

[IMG]http://www.speedtest.net/result/986285088.png[/IMG]
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Sat 30-Jul-11 00:47:56
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: CJT] [link to this post]
 
Looks like no Attenuations or NMs then; only speeds!

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 15.6 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 16.8 Meg Untweaked WBC
Standard User TMCR
(regular) Tue 09-Aug-11 22:57:27
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
I've left this alone for a while, giving an update on figures on a test just now, showing a slight improvement - I think ?

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Download speedachieved during the test was - 3899 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5504 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 4500 Kbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.
>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 335 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps


If acceptable speeds are between 1200-4000, how come the connection rate is 5504 and the IP profile is 4500 ? confused.me

TBB test shows
My Broadband Speed Test

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Virgin Cable (L) at home
eclipse internet Business Bronze at work

Edited by TMCR (Tue 09-Aug-11 22:58:47)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 09-Aug-11 23:17:57
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
As MrSaffron said, the acceptable range of speeds is a figure that can adapt over time to what you are getting in real life. In your case consistently under 4Mbps.

Remember that is the actual throughput speed it is talking about.

The throughput speed has to be below the IP Profile, as that is a sort of cap put on the line by the system. Don't worry about that, as there are 13%-18% losses due to overheads on an adslx connection, and most of that loss is hidden in the difference between the connection speed and the IP Profile.

As for the IP Profile itself, I don't know how much you know about that. If zilch, have a read of this page.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User TMCR
(regular) Sat 27-Aug-11 00:37:44
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
It's been a while since the line was changed to 21CN so I called Eclipse support and they've now had a good look at stats from their end with the conclusion that we will see no real increase following the change, what we see is what we'll get in other words.

Prior to the change we would see 4.1 and 0.37 on average, it's about the same on recent speed tests. Tonight it's down to 3.8 and 0.37 but I expect a drop during the night.

Samknows tells me that we're 2.72km from the exchange (MYTHN), but that's not the cable distance of course. We're just in the amber (Locality) range it seems.

I may try an experiment with turning ADSL2+ off and check the speed over a couple of days, just to see.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Virgin Cable (L) at home
eclipse internet Business Bronze at work
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