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Standard User Oldjim
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 05-Jul-12 10:21:21
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Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[link to this post]
 
There has been a lot of problems recently with the Plusnet mirror of the IP profile not updating and I wondered if the experts here can provide some clarification as to the actual need or otherwise of an IP profile (LLU don't seem to need it) and why no other ISP's (with the exception of A&A I believe) seem to use it in traffic control.
A succinct explanation of just how the IP profile works at an individual user level would be appreciated.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 05-Jul-12 10:32:03
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
http://www.robertos.me.uk/html/bt_ip_profiles.html

I've not updated it for FTTC/FTTP, but the principle is the same. On any BT Wholesale connection BTW apply it. Some ISPs, as listed in my write-up, and probably some others as well, hold a copy set at or a fraction below the BTW version, to buffer stuff themselves before it gets to your exchange. Thus preventing excessive packet loss which could result if it came direct from source and through them to the exchange, then hit the BTW limiter on your line.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User Oldjim
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 05-Jul-12 10:42:05
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Robert but can you explain why the LLU suppliers don't seem to have the excessive packet loss problem


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 05-Jul-12 12:09:28
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
No real idea. But don't forget we don't know what systems they have in place internally.

Neither do the BTW ISPs that don't hold copies seem to have a problem.

On FTTC the profile is 90-odd percent of the sync. That's the sort of thing I have to put on the page.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User rippedcotton
(experienced) Mon 09-Jul-12 19:56:39
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Oldjim] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oldjim:
Thanks Robert but can you explain why the LLU suppliers don't seem to have the excessive packet loss problem


It's probably to do with the ATM network that the IPStream stuff runs over, there is very little buffering in it, so any packets dropped at the LL means extra traffic over the ATM network for retries.

Once on LLU it's all more IP based which means that the TCP tuning should control the connection better, this means that in theory you don't have as much need to limit the speed.

However, have a look for the term "buffer bloat" and the nasty effects it can have in a network. Too much buffering insulates the ends of a connection from each other and defeats the TCP throughput mechanisms.

--

Brian

Zen Active 8000
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 09-Jul-12 20:34:34
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: rippedcotton] [link to this post]
 
The only ATM in BT Wholesale WBC/WBMC (21CN) ADSLx connections is from the exchange to the premises. ATM is also used between those two points on LLU.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Mon 09-Jul-12 22:43:51
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The only ATM in BT Wholesale WBC/WBMC (21CN) ADSLx connections is from the exchange to the premises. ATM is also used between those two points on LLU.


Are *ALL* exchanges now served by WBMC ? I know of northern scotland where 8mbps IPstream services is all you can still get. (I assume these are on the legacy ATM 'colossus' network).

James be* pro (16.8 / 1.2 sync) - BQM - FTTC cab installed 18-jun-2012 - not yet active - est 44.6 / 6.5
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 09-Jul-12 23:27:28
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I was trying to avoid that one tongue smile, as not very relevant to the particular statement I was querying.

It's difficult, as IPStream is I believe pretty well dead. The issue is confused by IPSC (IPStream Connect), which is used to replace it in non-WBC exchanges.

Basically IPStream requires ISPs to have the old BT Centrals. IPSC starts of at the user end like IPStream but can be delivered from the BRAS to the ISPs through their new MSILs on WBC.

Quite how much of the BT ATM cloud is avoided by this I don't know, but I can't imagine many, if any, ISPs are still running Centrals. I'm not even sure support for them hasn't been withdrawn, or is imminent.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 10-Jul-12 09:37:40
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Not seen the notice of withdrawal of IPStream Centrals yet

20% of UK has no WBC at the exchange yet.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Tue 10-Jul-12 20:08:34
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Quite how much of the BT ATM cloud is avoided by this I don't know, but I can't imagine many, if any, ISPs are still running Centrals. I'm not even sure support for them hasn't been withdrawn, or is imminent.


I assume that BTw has interface so that IPstream only areas and customers can be served by ISPs with only MSIL's as that seems the solution. Obviously ISPs only want to connect to BTw appropriately and not in duplication due to cost - so they will want a service that solves that problem.

BT's WBC rollout is slow and where is the 21CN for voice that was supposed to be complete by now? Anyone remember the "Switched ON" website of 2000/2001 ?

James be* pro (16.8 / 1.2 sync) - BQM - FTTC cab installed 18-jun-2012 - not yet active - est 44.6 / 6.5
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 10-Jul-12 22:42:50
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Paragraph 3 of the post you quote smile.

The link from the BRAS to the ISP can be MSIL or to a Central. As most ISPs will have MSILs by now, as you say, it makes sense.

Another issue though, which I have doubts will have changed. IPSC and WBC/WBMC apparently cannot be channelled through the same MSIL frown. Entanet have all 20 WBC nodes active, and all ten IPSC, but different MSILs at the common nodes. It's still cheaper to replace IPStream Centrals with IPSC MSILs.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User jchamier
(knowledge is power) Tue 10-Jul-12 22:44:01
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Another issue though, which I have doubts will have changed. IPSC and WBC/WBMC apparently cannot be channelled through the same MSIL frown. Entanet have all 20 WBC nodes active, and all ten IPSC, but different MSILs at the common nodes. It's still cheaper to replace IPStream Centrals with IPSC MSILs.


Yuck - wonder if that means in the "future" some ISPs could decide to stop serving people with 20CN only ? Hope not.

James be* pro (16.8 / 1.2 sync) - BQM - FTTC cab installed 18-jun-2012 - not yet active - est 44.6 / 6.5
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 11-Jul-12 00:52:03
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
http://noc.enta.net/21cn-interconnect-status/
http://noc.enta.net/ipsc-interconnect-status/

(Just a note for anyone not knowing what those indicators are about, they are the loadings for Entanet MSILs. Every ISP has their own MSILs, though very few have all twenty 21CN and all ten IPSC ones. The Entanet loadings are irrelevant to any other ISPs loadings).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 11-Jul-12 00:52:45)

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 11-Jul-12 09:42:16
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: rippedcotton] [link to this post]
 
The key difference between LLU and BT Wholesale is that the former mix all their traffic at the DSLAM / the exchange, which is usually visible as an IP address. So there's only one pipe required from the exchange and one bit of kit managing the flow to you which already knows your line's capacity. No need to signal capacity upstream.

BT Wholesale tunnel individual customers to their individual ISPs on virtual paths, originally on ATM where you have to dimension the circuit size so the IP profile exists at both ends as an ATM pipe size. ATM systems had little bufferring.

With 21CN they still use dedicated paths and I believe it's good practice to dimension these too - hence the profile - as otherwise you have a gigabit ethernet pipe visible to a connection capable of maybe 20M at the end user end which is a recipe for buffering and efficiency issues.

It's more efficient for Plusnet et al to only send 20M of data at you, if that's what you can receive, rather than bursting to 60M or something and having a whole load of control packets come back to regulate the flow retrospectively.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User adslmax
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 03-Sep-12 04:06:30
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
I just want to know which ISP do not have their ip profile capped at their end (I really hate it if they do this) I believe plusnet is the only isp that do capped ip profile while IDNet isp leave it uncapped (no ip profile at their end because it leave to BT end to set the customer's line speed is the best way forward) and plusnet should do the same to be uncapped.

Really fed up with plusnet ip profile do not updated itself every 12 hours, had to ask plusnet staff on the forum to set it manually to match bt end is rather annoying and stupid way to do this. They ought to leave it uncapped and let BT do the line capped itself! Because the 88.23% is instant profile rate for all 21CN and no need to wait for 72 hours for the profile to match. I guess it just plusnet to save their bandwidth like they updated profile every 12 hours but it never worked. The only working is profile to dropped more quickest than waiting for 72 hours to get BT matched profile to be rise then again another 12 hours for plusnet to updated with a total of 84 hours is a joke really! Might switch to IDNet to get profile instant at all times but their usage allowance is far too low and too expensive!

plusnetADSL2+16.4 Meg
My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by adslmax (Mon 03-Sep-12 04:14:58)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 03-Sep-12 22:58:29
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
Your BT IP Profile changes instantly Max.

Yes, it's a bit of a pain having to wait for the PN update, but it doesn't often fail. I think it is 3-4 times a day now? Not twice.

You pays your money and you makes your choice smile. At least the throttling is now nearly non-existent. Two hours a day at 2Mbps on P2P and external FTP.

I moved from IDNet fibre to PN fibre and pleased I did.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 03-Sep-12 23:01:52
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
Short memory Max? How many Entanet resellers did you use several times each in the past, at monthly change intervals tongue ? Enta operate a copy IP Profile as well. So do AAISP. I've a feeling Zen do as well, but I could be wrong.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User adslmax
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 04-Sep-12 02:31:03
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I am sure Zen doesn't have their own ip profile at their end as I use to be with enta, zen, adsl24, icuk, idnet and so on, I ran many isp's to find out who are the best. I lost my count how many isp's I have been with since 1999, probably over 100's isp! Overall, Idnet is the best but I moved to plusnet on the 26/01/2011 and never left them ever since.

plusnetADSL2+16.4 Meg
My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by adslmax (Tue 04-Sep-12 02:32:07)

ISP Representative SkyFire
(isp) Wed 26-Sep-12 16:45:11
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I've a feeling Zen do as well, but I could be wrong.


No - Zen don't use the BT IP profile.

ta,
Phil.

--
Phil Long
ZeN Performance and Process Improvement Manager

Please note, I will not respond to unsolicited private messages.
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User adslmax
(knowledge is power) Thu 11-Apr-13 03:02:56
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: SkyFire] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by SkyFire:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I've a feeling Zen do as well, but I could be wrong.


No - Zen don't use the BT IP profile.

ta,
Phil.


Are you saying that Zen do have uncapped ADSL2+ (no ip profile on your side) to match BT ip profile ? Uncapped ip profile seem very good to me, just leave it uncapped speed and let the BT exchange run at your line speed.

plusnetADSL2+15.7 Meg
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Thu 11-Apr-13 09:06:40
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
BT's BRAS imposes the IP profile, whether or not an ISP chooses to use it to regulate the traffic flow they send to the BRAS.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
ISP Representative SkyFire
(isp) Thu 11-Apr-13 10:34:30
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Correct - the BT limit still applies, but we don't copy it across to anything to apply it on our side too.

regards,
Phil.

--
Phil Long
ZeN Performance and Process Improvement Manager

Please note, I will not respond to unsolicited private messages.
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User adslmax
(knowledge is power) Thu 11-Apr-13 12:08:15
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: SkyFire] [link to this post]
 
Then I think Plusnet should removed their stupid ip profile to copy from bt ip profile because it pointless on unlimited package but plusnet say they need the two sides ip profile to match to stop cause any problem to the network. What a loads of rubbish.

BT IP Profile: 15.5Mb
Plusnet IP Profile: 14.4Mb

Throughput: 13.2Mb.

plusnetADSL2+15.7 Meg

Edited by adslmax (Thu 11-Apr-13 12:10:04)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 11-Apr-13 12:45:49
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by adslmax:
Then I think Plusnet should removed their stupid ip profile to copy from bt ip profile because it pointless on unlimited package but plusnet say they need the two sides ip profile to match to stop cause any problem to the network. What a loads of rubbish.


Surely if PN keep a copy of the IP Profile on their system in order to manage the network efficiently and are able to keep their unlimited BB prices low that can not be a bad thing. Can you be sure that it is a "pointless" and a "stupid" thing to do?

Only if and when the IP Profile is slow to update at their end is there an issue. If an end user finds that throughput continues to be slower than normal, perhaps after a period of instability and sync speed returns to the previous level, then they can check on the PN website for the IP Profile and compare it with IP Profile recorded in a BT speed test. If the profiles don't match then it is a simple matter to raise a ticket with, or contact, PN support.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 11-Apr-13 13:01:52
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by adslmax:
BT IP Profile: 15.5Mb
Plusnet IP Profile: 14.4Mb
I would expect the Plusnet copy, (Current line speed), to be 15.4Mbps, not 14.4Mbps. If it isn't a typo, a stop of the PPP session for a minute or so, without re-sync'ing, then a PPP restart may kick it up.

Otherwise, give them a ring.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sat 13-Apr-13 16:10:50
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: SkyFire] [link to this post]
 
If someone running a heavy download or P2P at the same time as trying to watch HD streaming, using VoIP or gaming how do ensure that the latter three take priority? If it is just left to the BT system surely the downloads and P2P will affect the other activities?

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 13-Apr-13 17:22:17
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
That's nothing to do with IP Profile copying.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sat 13-Apr-13 18:42:45
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
No?

If their system doesn't have a copy of the IP Profile how do they know what the capacity of the line is if they apply the quality of service I'm asking about?

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 13-Apr-13 20:20:00
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
Where are you asking about QOS?
Are you also asking about DPI?


__________________________________________________________________________The back pedalling starts here__________________
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 13-Apr-13 20:49:10
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
perhaps they apply it to a notional 8M or 22M (ADSL2+) or just leave it to BT's BRAS to do whatever the RFC calls for it to do.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 13-Apr-13 23:32:00
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
Exactly. "If".

As you well know, that's what Plusnet argue is the good point about their own traffic management, that other ISPs apparently don't emulate

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 13-Apr-13 23:36:23)

Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sun 14-Apr-13 00:30:39
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I'm intrigued to know how other ISPs manage to avoid the problems that the Plusnet system addresses, hence my query.

I believe AAISP do something similar to Plusnet (but they get it from the sync speed at connection time on 21CN I think).

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 14-Apr-13 00:39:06
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
You're suggesting AAISP do DPI


__________________________________________________________________________The back pedalling starts here__________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 14-Apr-13 00:58:26
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I think he is referring to AAISP "doing similar to Plusnet" in the sense of using a copy of the IP Profile. I'm sure they used to, but not sure they still do.

The declared reason for this is to allow buffering or dropping of packets at the ISP end, thus preventing the IP Profile causing packet dropping at the DSLAM/MSAN. This does have an advantage in that it stops retransmission of dropped packets between the user and the ISP, with associated resource usage and possible "hidden" allowance usage.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Sun 14-Apr-13 10:14:22
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
That's exactly what I'm referring to and I think I'm correct in saying that the BT specs. say it's something the ISP should do.

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 14-Apr-13 10:25:15
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
So he's saying that the ISP's using the BT BRAS are doing what BT say they must do? Seems rather obvious...

I thought he was saying AAISP enforce a traffic management system like Plusnet do using Ellacoyas deep-packet inspection to spy on their customers traffic.


__________________________________________________________________________The back pedalling starts here__________________
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sun 14-Apr-13 11:37:20
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
it's generally good practice where there's a constraint like an interconnection from wholesale to the ISP that can run full to allocate each user the proportion of that constraint that matches their line capacity. It isn't pretty when you tell an ISP router that a 2M fixed line is a 622M link and it tries to max it out.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 14-Apr-13 12:06:30
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
I thought he was saying AAISP enforce a traffic management system like Plusnet do using Ellacoyas deep-packet inspection to spy on their customers traffic.
I think you mean Zen, and I don't think he was saying that at all. He did ask how they do stop things screwing up with simultaneous multiple traffic types on a single line, but that's a question. Not a suggestion that Zen even do anything about it, never mine how.

Edit - don't forget this thread has been restarted recently after a huge gap.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 14-Apr-13 12:07:16)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 18-Apr-13 09:01:56
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
why would it try to max it out?

pretty much all high speed traffic is TCP unless something like a DOS attack.

TCP self regulates and it starts from 0 not from 622mbit/sec it ramps up using slowstart,

eg. if I start to download a iso image, it doesnt immediatly try to send it all at once at some insane high speed, it ramps the speed up from just 576bytes/sec to the sustainable speed, the name slowstart is a bit misleading in that it all happens very quickly but its a ramp up process not ramp down.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 18-Apr-13 09:02:45)

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Thu 18-Apr-13 23:30:26
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
http://blog.benstrong.com/2010/11/google-and-microso...

and multiple streams so it may start faster than you think.

it doesn't start at any bytes per second but is supposed to wait for acks before pushing more than the initial window. So the initial rate is primarily a function of latency.

My maxing out occurred on a 2M line wrongly assigned 622M as its throughput doing a bonded link with another 2M line, one was maxed out and the other was useless, as it was getting 2/622 or some similar fraction of the total throughput.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 19-Apr-13 01:26:49
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Interesting comment in benstrongs blog
s9 said...

Um, RFC 3390 is an update to RFC 2581, which was obsoleted by RFC 5681. The maximum initial window specified by RFC 5681 is four.
I guess benstrong didn't wiki it either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow-start


__________________________________________________________________________The back pedalling starts here__________________
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 19-Apr-13 16:28:45
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
I know they cheat but thats just a jump start on the ramp up rather than starting at full speed.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
Standard User legume
(experienced) Mon 24-Jun-13 00:18:50
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
My maxing out occurred on a 2M line wrongly assigned 622M as its throughput doing a bonded link with another 2M line, one was maxed out and the other was useless, as it was getting 2/622 or some similar fraction of the total throughput.


I would think misconfigured load balancing is a different issue from what is being discussed here.

From tcp's point of view I can think of no difference between hitting your bottleneck before or after it's gone from ISP to BT bras.

It will be a bit better for the ISP to create the bottleneck as it should save some small amount of packets being sent over their expensive BT connection that will be dropped anyway.

It will be a lot better for the ISP saving their BT link if you get DOSed - but then as has been said, maybe ISPs that don't follow IP profile still set some limit, or have other DOS workarounds.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 24-Jun-13 10:27:31
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: legume] [link to this post]
 
I would think misconfigured load balancing is a different issue from what is being discussed here.
It was an illustration - everyone's link is effectively load balanced due to the oversubscription, as we're all running in tunnels and not one big tcp/ip sea.

So the profile system allocates an appropriate amount of bandwidth to each tunnel which makes sense to me as there's no point in giving a 1M customer the same share of the total at peak times as you would give to a 10M customer if the result was the 1M case being maxed out.

The other reason for the profiles is that on 20CN ATM based systems with no buffering the TCP/IP performance under congestion is poor when cells are lost which contain fragments of TCP/IP packets. The steep fall off in performance is well documented. Profiles stop the ATM links being overloaded with data they can't usefully forward.

I assume the people who wrote the RFC for a BRAS had a grip on these things, more than anyone here at least.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User mixt
(experienced) Mon 24-Jun-13 12:35:38
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
FYI, AAISP do copy the IP profile speed, or some factor of it (configurable by the user).

http://aa.net.uk/kb-broadband-shaping.html

They explain in detail why do this (quite a good read, if you have the time). On my line, I have set the AAISP limiter to 99% of my BT profile rate because AAISP apply some basic traffic shaping to give priority to VOIP and other small packets. Limiting to just less than the BT limit means their equipment can intercept and shape inbound traffic before it hits my router, well before any "dumb limiting equipment" at BT limits it instead (which has no traffic shaping/prioritization at all).

Now on <aaisp.net> (21CN+IPv6+FTTC/40Mb)
Previous ISPs: Virgin Media (50Mb/Cable), Be* Un Limited, ZeN
Is Linux routing your internet connection?
Need to make BIND geo-aware?
Standard User legume
(experienced) Mon 24-Jun-13 12:43:58
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
I would think misconfigured load balancing is a different issue from what is being discussed here.
It was an illustration - everyone's link is effectively load balanced due to the oversubscription, as we're all running in tunnels and not one big tcp/ip sea.

So the profile system allocates an appropriate amount of bandwidth to each tunnel which makes sense to me as there's no point in giving a 1M customer the same share of the total at peak times as you would give to a 10M customer if the result was the 1M case being maxed out.

The other reason for the profiles is that on 20CN ATM based systems with no buffering the TCP/IP performance under congestion is poor when cells are lost which contain fragments of TCP/IP packets. The steep fall off in performance is well documented. Profiles stop the ATM links being overloaded with data they can't usefully forward.

I assume the people who wrote the RFC for a BRAS had a grip on these things, more than anyone here at least.


Yes, I agree with the above reasons for BT wholesale setting profiles.

The point I was trying to make was narrower than that, and specifically about whether or not and what effect the ISP shadowing the profile on their kit has.

I still don't see (apart from differences between the exact mechanism like buffer vs police) that tcp will notice where the bottleneck is.

As bras may limit/balance at peak times any ISP profile setting isn't even going to be hit then, though maybe these times are rarer now than in the past.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Tue 25-Jun-13 07:32:26
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: legume] [link to this post]
 
the bit I disagree with yarwell on is how tcp deals with profiling.

It simply doesnt, tcp doesnt care if its a dialup modem, a 10mbit ethernet connection or a OC192. It starts at a single packet payload and ramps up from there until it finds a sweet point. Some servers are configured to have a higher ramp up starting point but the principle remains the same.

Generally speaking the only realistic way I can see if a line is getting too much data shoved down it is either a denial of service attack which someone else also mentioned in this thread, excessive syn packets, or something thats broken.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Tue 25-Jun-13 10:51:00
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
So how does that work if you already have a download running that has found the sweet point and then start a second? Or worse try to make a VoIP call.

jelv

Plusnet user since November 2001 - not sure for how much longer
Standard User Kper
(regular) Tue 25-Jun-13 12:10:20
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
This is how PlusNet's Head of Products and Digital Care (KellyD on these forums?) explains the way their profiles are applied in conjunction with the BTw IP Profile:
There are 5 potential speed points on your line, applied in this order:

1 - Your theoretical speed. This is the quality of your line. You will never get higher than this without technology changes
2 - Your BT Speed Profile. This is a profile set on your line which the exchange equipment has determined as your stable speed. On a good, stable line this will set and shouldn't change too much. If you have an unstable line, it will theoretically decrease until your line becomes stable.
3 - Your Plusnet speed profile. This is set to a little below your BT speed profile. We do this so that we can control the maximum amount of data we send down your line. This allow us to use our QoS to protect your experience.
5 - Rate limits. We are able to apply a rate limit across our traffic. We do this on our Essential, Plus, Extra and legacy accounts at peak hours for protocols like P2P. Our current Unlimited product does not have any.
6 - QoS level buffering/packet drops. Because we've identified the types of traffic you are using, we can cause packets of those particular types to buffer, and eventually drop. We use this to ensure that, along with your Plusnet speed profile, if you are maxing your bandwidth, we'll make sure you get your high priority packets first. If our network is also under heavy load (i.e. we've cocked up our bandwidth forecasting) this will start to apply to ensure time sensitive traffic is protected at the expense of the less time sensitive traffic.

Unlimited has no 5, and 6 is applied on a per user level if you are maxing your line. 6 is always in affect, but our WBMC network is scaled so that no buffering is happening. (There has been a little bit on IPSC over the past few weeks which I'm working with Dave T to fix)

We can set 3 at any time by hand, but is usually automatically adjusted a couple of times a day based on messages from BT about what 2 is set as. (THere are some issues in the messages coming from BT on this.) This manual adjustment is what I did for Finguz

We can't influence 1 at all, beyond advising you to fix dodgy cables and sending engineers.
Standard User legume
(experienced) Tue 25-Jun-13 12:39:31
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jelv:
So how does that work if you already have a download running that has found the sweet point and then start a second? Or worse try to make a VoIP call.


If another TCP starts then the first will get more loss and back off. TCP isn't fair so what rates they get will depend somewhat on the latency between the endpoints.

Historically at least BT BRAS buffer quite a lot which can be seen as a bad thing - buffer bloat, and is not nice for voip.

As has been said, some ISPs will help here doing Qos for you by setting their rate a bit below BT profile.

IME an ISP that has a policer set at ipprofile rate still fills the bras buffer as they have to set a burst as policers tend to be a bit aggressive otherwise. Policers just drop - no buffer, but in practice they use a virtual buffer = burst.

ISPs using ip profile to do active QOS for you is a good thing - if yours doesn't you can do it your self but being the wrong and of the bottleneck makes it harder and involves sacrificing bandwidth. The slower your line the harder it is.

Of course no ISP using BT wholesale can guarentee QOS like this as at peak times the bras buffers may run below line speed - though this may be rare.

BT wholesale will sell QOS to ISPs to avoid this but it's expensive, I think BT vision uses it - but then I guess expensive doesn't matter so much if you can keep it in the family smile
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Tue 25-Jun-13 13:22:06
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
the first download will slow down as the second download speeds up, tcp has congestion control algorithms.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 25-Jun-13 17:49:52
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
But what about the VOIP issue je;v also raised in the same post? Or gaming latency? Remember the PN blog post explaining that's entirely what their traffic management is about - QOS.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 53.4/16.8Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Wed 26-Jun-13 07:27:06
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
well now we talking about different things, fair use QoS vs the IP profiling.

TCP isnt perfect, QoS does have a place. But TCP in general will do a reasonable job on its own.

Also some congestion control algorithms are better than others eg. CTCP and cubic are generally better than new reno.

As already mentioned TCP will give more bandwidth when latency is lower, also something that has multiple threads/connections will get favourable treatment as well (torrents), and that TCP has no idea if what its sending has importance of latency vs throughput. QoS works well for managing those sort of situations.

What plusnet are doing may help some people, but I think it has a bigger place on slower connections, as once connections get fast enough QoS isnt so much needed. Of course not all FTTC connections are that fast, some may sync 10mbit or so with low upload speeds, and then QoS can defenitly be useful for certian usage patterns.

I am not dishing what plusnet and BTw are doing but just I think the IP profiles are not really required to throttle back tcp traffic per connection.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 26-Jun-13 21:14:10
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
well now we talking about different things, fair use QoS vs the IP profiling.
jelv made a post with two questions to you. You replied to one but ignored the other.

Nobody has mentioned "fair use", so I don't know where that came from. The thread is surely about management of the particular connection, not overall traffic management of an ISP's resources.

So we are still ignorant of what you think happens to VOIP with your plausible explanation of how multiple P2P stream contend within an individual connection smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 53.4/16.8Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 28-Jun-13 11:38:17
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I am not dishing what plusnet and BTw are doing but just I think the IP profiles are not really required to throttle back tcp traffic per connection.


Take a single person running their internet connection downloading over TCP - the amount of data hitting the bottleneck, in this case the MSAN, be it VDSL or ADSL, and the way the data will constantly be filling buffers them emptying then filling buffers again them emptying.

Take the buffers on the MSAN, then add buffers on a LAC along with however many standard routers in the path.

Think about what that excess data will do to the amount of bandwidth they are using, remembering that this bandwidth is measured way upstream from the bottleneck.

At 40-ish quid a Megabit a month across a large user base this rather quickly gets expensive. Far better this gets choked at a BRAS much closer to the ISP.

The IP Profile is not there for the convenience or otherwise of individual users, it is there for the benefit of BT Wholesale, it makes capacity planning easier, avoids cascading buffering from MSAN right through to BRAS, and avoids ISPs paying for data while those buffers fill.

I entirely agree IP profiles aren't required to throttle TCP back per connection, as do BT Wholesale, which is why that isn't their purpose.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 28-Jun-13 14:13:01
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
yeah I said something similiar previously also that I think profiles are used to help isp's manage capacity.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 28-Jun-13 16:47:33
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Can you think of a better way?
Standard User adslmax
(knowledge is power) Fri 27-Dec-13 17:35:30
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet often a very strange ip profile on their side. Some day it never updated (even for 14 days waiting for ip profile to change) and some day it updated quickly instant. But, today my current line speed on plusnet set at 21Mb. That's why I getting fastest throughput speed than BT IP profile (around 10kbps faster)

Before: IP Profile -17.34Mb Throughput - 16:31Mb
Now: IP Profile -17.34Mb Throughput - 17.44Mb

http://s5.postimg.org/dq13fayp3/BT_Speed_v2.jpg

plusnetADSL2+16 Meg

Edited by adslmax (Fri 27-Dec-13 17:36:07)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 27-Dec-13 18:58:04
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Re: Effect of IP profile and how do individual ISP's use it


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
As I asked you in your thread about that max, is that result repeatable. Your explanation here is extremely unlikely to be correct, as the lower of the two limits will always take precedence.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 59.4/14.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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