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Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Wed 06-Mar-13 03:06:19
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Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[link to this post]
 
On the 25th of this month we are having BT Broadband activated on our line, the btw database estimates a sync of 16-19Mbps.

However, we are currently with Tesco up to 8Mbps seeing a sync of 6848Mbps, this is with an SNRM of 9db and an attenuation reported by the router as 6db. Obviously this shows our line is underperforming.

My question is this: in your opinions will I see an increase in speed with a switch to BT using ADSL2+ over Tesco using ADSL? As far as I and open reach know we have no voice faults on the local loop line.

In other words, is this under performance more likely related to the local loop or something upstream at the exchange?

Thanks

Edited by matthewcl375 (Wed 06-Mar-13 03:08:33)

Standard User aquiss
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 06-Mar-13 09:49:34
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
My question is this: in your opinions will I see an increase in speed with a switch to BT using ADSL2+ over Tesco using ADSL? As far as I and open reach know we have no voice faults on the local loop line.


It's also highly likely to be your answer to. ADSL2+ will sync up higher on shorter lines, than ADSL, hence the difference.

Martin Pitt
Aquiss Limited
http://www.aquiss.net

Unlimited Family Broadband Packages : http://www.aquiss.net/broadband-unlimited.php
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 06-Mar-13 09:59:57
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Based on the lengthy threads it is hard to say for certain, but a reasonable chance that things will be better.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


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Standard User townman
(newbie) Wed 06-Mar-13 10:32:50
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The description you have provided is not so much will switching ISPs give you a better sync, rather one of will chaning BB products (ADSL2 vs. ADSL1) give you a better synch? Given the estimates from BTw the answer appears to be yes.

The question you should be asking is will BT as an ISP provide you with better customer service than your existing ISP? No matter who is the ISP, unless you are with Virgin or another cable supplier, the last leg of your circuit is always going to be a variable quality BT copper / aluminium pair.

Given all of the problems with changing email addresses etc, you might have been better off asking Tesco to switch you to ADSL2.
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Wed 06-Mar-13 11:05:56
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: townman] [link to this post]
 
Basically, is my existing underperformance likely to carry over to a BT ADSL2+ connection?

My guess would be that the DSLAM our line is connected to will be changed, so if the underperformance is being caused at the exchange or further upstream, then this should sort it
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Mar-13 14:49:22
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: townman] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by townman:
you might have been better off asking Tesco to switch you to ADSL2.
Tesco is supplied by C&W, but C&W are not LLU'd at OP's exchange, so no ADSL2+ available there.

In case you are thinking WBC, C&W non-LLU is like O2 Access or Sky Connect. They only re-buy ADSL Max, not WBC.

@OP: No need for me to repeat my thoughts on the subject; only suck-it-&-see will answer your Q.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 06-Mar-13 15:25:00
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
It might, depends on the cause of the under performance which without more investigation and trying different hardware which you have failed to do, then no-one is able to say.

No one give you certainty on this things, ADSL2+ and ADSL are very much try it and see services.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 06-Mar-13 16:22:16
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Basically, is my existing underperformance likely to carry over to a BT ADSL2+ connection?

My guess would be that the DSLAM our line is connected to will be changed, so if the underperformance is being caused at the exchange or further upstream, then this should sort it


If you had decided on a Plusnet no contract deal then you could have given 21CN WBC a try. If after a while things are still not satisfactory then you could switch to partial LLU.

I had problems with the BT exchange kit (IP Stream) in the past which I could never seem to get fixed and it was only a change to partial LLU that cured the BB problem. Hopefully you will not have similar issues with 21CN WBC on your line that I had with 20CN but having the option of partial LLU when not in a contract with a ISP using 21CN can have advantages...
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Wed 06-Mar-13 17:52:18
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thank you all for your replies, it does seem to be a case of wait and see, thou I'm pretty sure our local loop is fine, and if I read kitz correctly switching to 21CN WBC will mean I get switched from a DSLAM to an MSAN, assuming my current connection is over 20CN network I'm hoping this will fix any issues related to the DLM as the switch will put the line on the so called 3 day training and re profile it, which to be honest should have been done after the new line was installed at the end of January crazy

According to Kitz will the migration be ipstream <> ipstream or ipstream<> datastream?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Wed 06-Mar-13 18:09:13)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Mar-13 18:15:35
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
According to Kitz will the migration be ipstream <> ipstream or ipstream<> datastream?
Neither nor any other of Kitz's routes. You're getting too involved again.

You are probably on MSAN already (I don't know nor care about flavours of exchange kit as it doesn't affect end-users) as you are already on WBC but delivering an ADSL Max type profile.

EDIT: In all probability, no physical change need to be done to your exchange wiring; it will be done by programming the DLM to switch you from an IP Stream ADSL Max like profile to a WBC ADSL2+ one.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Wed 06-Mar-13 19:06:10)

Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Wed 06-Mar-13 19:29:41
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
That's strange because the Tesco retention team definitely said about things being switched round in the exchange, that's why I'm having to wait until the 25th, because OR has a busy schedule...
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 06-Mar-13 20:02:10
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
That's strange because the Tesco retention team definitely said about things being switched round in the exchange, that's why I'm having to wait until the 25th, because OR has a busy schedule...


I wouldn't take much notice of that: your new ISP will be sorting things out during the migration, if necessary, with the other parties. As far as you are concerned all Tesco can do is give you a MAC key.
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Wed 06-Mar-13 20:34:31
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Ahh, going by what was said on previous threads, my under performance is either due to some kind of banding which has been applied on the line, or a high level of noise, or an issue with my current router (so far I have not been able to find another router to test with).

I suspect it to be the former or the latter, since I can find no extra sources of noise apart from the ones I've already isolated, unless its coming from a neighbour's house (we live in a terraced house).

In this case, banding SHOULD be removed as the new BB runs through its first 3 days of building a fresh line profile. If it is the router, obviously a BT HH 3 should sort that out too.

I guess I am just worried it could be something out of our control, such as maybe the underground cabling running from the exchange to the street pole...
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Mar-13 22:29:19
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Tesco retention team definitely said about things being switched round in the exchange
I'd be surprised! Neither Tesco nor C&W have any kit at exchange; it's all BT's.

A fat lot Tesco support know about exchange things as they don't even supply BB themselves. Never believe anything that BB phone support say; likely to be wrong 90% of time grin

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Mar-13 22:33:55
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
If banding were the issue, it's only present cuz it found line unstable.

By not finding a replacement, you have failed to eliminate the most likely cause, the router.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Wed 06-Mar-13 22:58:28
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
You're right about Tesco, like you say they're not even an ISP per se

Regarding a spare router, we'll be getting one from BT soon regardless. Also, I am going to see if the college I go to would be able to 'loan' or sell me any old router at a discount, I will also check with the place I will be working next week to see if they could lend me an old router too, but I doubt it.

I found the following on the BT Wholesale ADSL Checker for my line:

WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 17.5 Up to 1.5 16 to 19.5 Available
ADSL Max Up to 7.5 -- 6.5 to 8 Available


Do you know if these BTW predictions are based on a 'standard' target noise margin? Because I am pretty close to getting that lowest sync figure of 6.5Mbps ...

Oh, and the other question I had was (a bit technical but not entirely unrelated), if there is no equipment to be moved round in exchange, how does DLM know to re train the line again?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Wed 06-Mar-13 23:25:35)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Mar-13 23:26:03
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 17.5 Up to 1.5 16 to 19.5 Available
Wrong line! You want the one w/out Annex M. But it'll be the same Down speed.

There just pure estimates; you can assume a standard NM if you like, but they are only a guide.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Mar-13 23:28:37
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I already told you. A little guy sits at his console and programs it. It takes millisecs.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 07-Mar-13 01:09:38
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Ah it sounds a lot easier than I pictured it. Forgive my sometimes over-inquisitive mind tongue

Well, my plan of attack now is to try and get a second hand router to do a double check of line stats with, and errm wait it out for the BT BB to get activated I guess...

I'm quite positive about it right now, thinking if I can get near maximum speeds on ADSL Max with a 9db Target Margin, in theory I should be able to get near maximum speeds on ADSL2+, with the same Target Margin smile Also BT have said to contact them if I don't get within close range of their Estimated speeds, I will also have a very helpful community to turn to if any problems arise wink

Edited by matthewcl375 (Thu 07-Mar-13 01:09:57)

Standard User sthen
(member) Thu 07-Mar-13 08:32:35
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? - EDITED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Changing router, *even if your current one is not faulty*, can make a huge difference. Even just changing cables/microfilter can help more than you might think.
Standard User epyon
(experienced) Thu 07-Mar-13 15:17:44
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Yes you will see an improvement unless things go horribly wrong enjoysmile

Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 07-Mar-13 19:14:37
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: epyon] [link to this post]
 
Alright laugh

UPDATE: College has very kindly loaned me a BT Home Hub, it's either a 1.0 or a 1.5, I will be plugging it in tomorrow to see if there is a change in the stats, will keep you all posted
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 07-Mar-13 20:25:35
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? *DELETED*


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by matthewcl375
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Thu 07-Mar-13 21:01:07
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I don't see how using a different router will change things? what you need is an up to 20 Dslam port, rather than the current up to 8 one.

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 07-Mar-13 21:02:51
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
At this point it is just a case of verifying the line stats

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 07-Mar-13 21:41:17
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Does the Home Hub v1 accept connections to ISPs other than BT? Would it just be a case of entering my Tesco username and password as has been entered on my current gateway?
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 07-Mar-13 22:31:31
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
On second thoughts, I probably won't have to establish a PPPOA session to get my line stats would i?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 07-Mar-13 22:44:17
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Correct!

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 07-Mar-13 22:54:41
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Shame in a way, it would be nice to be able to use it as a router for a while, if it gives a greater sync...
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 07-Mar-13 23:11:16
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
It would also be nice to drive a Rolls Royce for a day or two

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 08-Mar-13 08:50:21
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
On second thoughts, I probably won't have to establish a PPPOA session to get my line stats would i?


correct, though you can use a BT test login if it's a Wholesale provided service.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Fri 08-Mar-13 14:46:22
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Ok I just did the test, which involved plugging in the Home Hub using the supplied power cable and then connecting it to the filter via a new ADSL cable which we got from Tesco (not the same one used on the TG582n). Stats are below (entered manually by me from a screenshot):

Bandwidth: 448Kbps up, 5,664Kbps down
Output Power: 11.5db up, 9.5db down
Line Attenuation: 5.0db up, 7.0db down
SN Margin: 22.0db up, 9.5db down


(When I did this test it was raining outside, however now I have reconnected my normal router, I am getting 6,880Kbps down, so I don't think weather could have caused the low sync)

Most likely the low sync was caused by this Home Hub being an old router, you think?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 08-Mar-13 14:46:56)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 08-Mar-13 14:54:34
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Please now post TG582n's corresponding stats so we can compare.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Fri 08-Mar-13 15:22:43
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Stats from TG582n

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 6.880
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 6,75 / 60,82
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 13,8
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 9,1

My IP Profile has just dropped to 4.5Mbps even though I had the Home Hub on for less than 75 minutes frown

Where does this leave things?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 08-Mar-13 17:22:04)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 08-Mar-13 18:19:15
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Well, that exonerates the router; we can now trust its readings.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Fri 08-Mar-13 18:43:10
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Now back to the seemingly age old question of what on earth is causing the underperformance crazy

I had a wild idea today: I could plug our old extension back in, then move the router upstairs and plug it in up there, this would help to eliminate any noise issues as it would be in a different room altogether, with nothing else plugged in to the mains in that room.

@XRaySpeX Earlier in the thread you said I am already on WBC, how did you work that out?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 08-Mar-13 18:48:21)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 08-Mar-13 18:53:41
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Your exchange is WBC enabled, isn't it?

So they will have 21CN kit in there, not 20CN.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Fri 08-Mar-13 23:25:55
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Ah, I was under the impression that 20CN kit was still used to provide 20CN services, also someone on Kitz said that I am on a DSLAM

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 08-Mar-13 23:29:47)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 08-Mar-13 23:37:20
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
A MSAN is just a DSLAM that is DSL and voice services.

You may be on 20CN hardware, or you may be on 21CN hardware but using an IPStream Max ADSL like profile

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 09-Mar-13 00:11:38
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Why bother wasting money and space keeping 2 varieties of kit when you can cover both with just the modern kit and just throwing a few software switches?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sat 09-Mar-13 02:03:03
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
That would make sense, yet our exchange doesn't yet have 21CN enabled for PSTN, which is what made me think it would be a DSLAM...
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 09-Mar-13 04:03:14
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
No exchange is. 21CN voice plans shelved years ago.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sat 09-Mar-13 04:07:37
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
@XRaySpeX Ahh, I see you're a night owl too tongue

I've made a list of any possible noise sources that can be eliminated, so far I have fridge/freezer, neighbour's radio, television aerial(s) and the fact the router is plugged into an electrical extension cable which could be faulty...

If none of these prove to be the case, chances are it's a REIN issue which most likely can't be easily fixed, so I will have to wait and see if the upgrade to BT produces any higher sync speeds (tbh i'd settle with 12-15Mbps right now). If not, I will be on the phone to BT Support as they have told me to do should I not get the speed I was estimated

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sat 09-Mar-13 04:20:00)

Standard User sthen
(member) Sat 09-Mar-13 08:26:40
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
When my exchange was moved to 21cn they initially just used it for new/migrated connections and only moved existing lines across after ~10 months or so.
Standard User sthen
(committed) Sat 09-Mar-13 09:11:30
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
If there's a noise problem (and there usually has to be some kind of problem to end up with ~9dB target) it's more likely to affect the line rather than directly affecting the router. Extension cabling can often pick up noise (acting as an aerial) and feed it back even if it's *after* the router. (disconnecting the bell wire can reduce this, though for a test it can be simpler to just disconnect it completely - if you have an nte5 where the extensions should be wired from the front half, so using the test socket disconnects this). Certainly worth disconnecting any that you don't need.

If you have a router which reports CRC errors (BT ones often do though I'm not certain about the homehub) this is a good indication of noise so if you normally see the error count increasing and it stops in the test socket this gives a good indication of something to look into (walking around with an not-tuned-in AM battery radio looking for noise sources is good for this; LCDs, fluorescent lights and switched-mode power supplies are common possibilities). Be aware of anything which might not always be powered on of course. And there is the possibility that problems don't show up wigh the speed you're currently connected at, but would if you connected at a higher speed (i.e. DLM working as expected) so sometimes all you can do is clean up cabling as much as possible and leave it for a couple of weeks to see if sync rates creep up.
Standard User sthen
(committed) Sat 09-Mar-13 09:12:31
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The 448k upstream sync suggests you are *not* on 21cn gear.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 09-Mar-13 12:41:27
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: sthen] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sthen:
The 448k upstream sync suggests you are *not* on 21cn gear.


careful, there are silly 20CN style profiles on 21CN too.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 09-Mar-13 12:45:04
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Why bother wasting money and space keeping 2 varieties of kit when you can cover both with just the modern kit and just throwing a few software switches?
That is what happens. There's no requirement for CPs to move users to 21CN when it arrives, and several do not.

Saves rewiring a load of lines to a new MSAN when they can be left on existing DSLAMs until such time as the latter are unneeded (as users have migrated) or retired.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sun 10-Mar-13 02:50:26
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Bit annoying as I was put on a 4.5Mbps profile due to that Home Hub :/ Am I right in thinking it will rise given time, according to my current sync of 6880?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sun 10-Mar-13 02:56:40)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 10-Mar-13 12:38:31
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Bit annoying as I was put on a 4.5Mbps profile due to that Home Hub :/ Am I right in thinking it will rise given time, according to my current sync of 6880?
From all the help, information and explanations you have been given over several weeks, if not months, what would you answer if someone asked you the same question about their connection?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 541/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sun 10-Mar-13 14:57:02
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Well so far it has been a case of my sync rising and then the IPP rising, I haven't had a case of where I have got a much lower sync before which is why I was asking.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sun 10-Mar-13 18:06:15
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Bit annoying as I was put on a 4.5Mbps profile due to that Home Hub :/ Am I right in thinking it will rise given time, according to my current sync of 6880?


yep. If it was 21CN it should rise with a restart of the PPP session / reboot of the router, if its 20CN it'll be along in a day or two.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 10-Mar-13 18:50:50
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
But you keep asking and asking and asking and asking and asking!

Your threads are huge and you personally can't seem to do a thing as you are not the bill payer.
You've stated previously that you want to learn but sometimes it seems that answers you receive are ignored.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sun 10-Mar-13 19:39:04
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
Well, there are some very knowledgeable and helpful people on here. I often find in IT/Technology in general people are very quick to judge those who aren't as technically inclined, in fact sometimes I do it

Most of the people on here know more about broadband than me, hence why you don't see this many pages in other threads. Also, no offence to others, but a lot of technical websites can be hard to understand for someone new to the subject, hence why I prefer the approach of asking questions

@Yarwell thanks, that's reassuring to know, although I will say you can do surprisingly a lot with 4.5Mbps tongue

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sun 10-Mar-13 19:39:59)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 10-Mar-13 19:50:22
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Have you got the MAC key from Tesco yet?

BTW. the boss may have to return Tesco's supplied router after migration...
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sun 10-Mar-13 23:11:45
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
@4M2, Yes smile Just half an hour after I requested the MAC from tesco last Tuesday my dad got a text with it, that evening he entered it into the BT order form and we now have the Home Hub being delivered on the 25th and the Broadband being activated on the same day laugh
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 10-Mar-13 23:48:55
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
That's great smile

Please keep us informed about the new BB connection - probably best to start a new thread when that happens smile
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 00:04:31
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Haha don't worry I have another thread planned for when the Home Hub arrives laugh

Kitz has a little theory about my underperforming line which I now hold as the definite explanation of its underperformance:

Basically, my output power has been reduced. This has lowered my SN Margin (in the way which you would normally have 'spare' SNR living so close to the exchange). This has in turn reduced my sync speed by a small fraction.

This looks right to me as everywhere else I look, people with short lines (attenuation below 10db) seem to have output power of 15+db, whereas mines only 13.8db and has been since the line fault.

What do you guys think about this? Under what circumstances would DLM reduce the output power to a line?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 11-Mar-13 00:05:01)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 00:20:48
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Kitz has a little theory about my underperforming line which I now hold as the definite explanation of its underperformance:

Basically, my output power has been reduced. This has lowered my SN Margin (in the way which you would normally have 'spare' SNR living so close to the exchange). This has in turn reduced my sync speed by a small fraction.

This looks right to me as everywhere else I look, people with short lines (attenuation below 10db) seem to have output power of 15+db, whereas mines only 13.8db and has been since the line fault.

What do you guys think about this? Under what circumstances would DLM reduce the output power to a line?

As I think we discussed before from Kitz:

"Its important to note that on very good lines which would be able to sync in excess of 8Mb and which are currently syncing at 8128 or 7616 will show the SNR Margin as being higher due to the line not having reached its full potential. Such lines may well have the output power reduced in order to minimise crosstalk for other connections, therefore the SNRM figure is not an indication of the true target in these particular cases"

Please also note this, which I don't think we discussed, also from Kitz:

"~ Output power - The amount of power transmitted from the exchange and your modem. Output power will likely increase depending on the length of your line (loop loss)."
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 00:33:17
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Where do you see that in Kitz? Is it the Power Cut Back bit that includes:
Note also how it can easily sync at the full 8128 kbps
Well, yours isn't!

Or is it the bit we discussed before that:
on very good lines which would be able to sync in excess of 8Mb and which are currently syncing at 8128 or 7616 ... may well have the output power reduced in order to minimise crosstalk for other connections
Well again. yours isn't!

You are forever clutching at straws and repeating yourself frown

Just let it go and wait for the new connection and its stats.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 11-Mar-13 00:35:35)

Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 00:55:45
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
@XRaySpeX I don't mean on the Kitz website, I mean I spoke to Kitz in person and she said that. She has had the same problem, where the output power was reduced after a power surge, bringing down her sync. I'll link you to the thread

Here

P.s. if you don't like what I'm posting you don't have to reply to my questions, I know they are many but a little patience can go a long way

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 11-Mar-13 01:08:58)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 01:22:12
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
That's a very interesting issue mentioned by Kitz regarding very short lines - I didn't know that.

Thanks for the link to that thread smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 01:37:33
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Interesting, but I don't think that Kitz's power outage incident reflects your new cable from pole event. She was back to normal after the event within 24 hours w/out any intervention and that was back in 2008. It was just a temporary glitch and not ongoing like yours; it was not the normal behaviour of power levels.

I note that no one considered the real possibility that you are on an ADSL Max like profile on WBC and all assumed that you were still connected to 20CN kit. More likely now than in 2008.

You are to be congratulated on the clarity of your explanation in that thread smile

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 11-Mar-13 01:39:59)

Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 01:51:27
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yeah, whilst my problem is different to hers, it still doesn't change the fact my output power is weirdly low... No wonder I can't get a full sync!

@XRayspeX doesn't the way my IPP takes 3 days to update suggest that I'm on 20CN kit?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 02:05:10
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Yes. 'tis possible! On WBC it would normally be an immediate 88.2% of Sync.

But I don't think we know enough about how a WBC ADSL Max like profile operates, except that they exist. The IPP recovery time might be linked to the desire to conform to the old stepwise IPPs. So nowt is certain!

We'll only know till after you get switched and see if you continue having weird stats or not. So let's just wait?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 02:07:33
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
...everywhere else I look, people with short lines (attenuation below 10db) seem to have output power of 15+db, whereas mines only 13.8db...


If you have seen output power of 15dB and higher on lines with an attenuation of 10dB and lower, then 13.8dB on your attenuation of 6dB perhaps looks about right? Obviously I don't want to contradict Kitz's experience since I have no first hand knowledge of short lines but maybe your observations do suggest that your output power is not excessively low...
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 02:14:44
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Further on that point:
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
everywhere else I look, people with short lines (attenuation below 10db) seem to have output power of 15+db, whereas mines only 13.8db
Did you happen to notice whether that were running max syncs of 8128K or 7616K?

You do realise that when you get on ADSL2+ you attenuation will increase to ~9dB?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 02:49:58
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Consider why does BTw bother offering quasi ADSL Max on WBC kit.

Cuz the nationwide price list to ISPs of ADSL Max is less than for WBC ADSL2 and some ISPs particularly LLU ones want to pay less outside their area so as to provide nationwide coverage.

So you pay less you get less incl. the laggy stepwise IPP which is probably part of the spec of ADSL Max.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 03:07:59
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yes, what I mean is that was the output power for people who were getting their full 8128, as in kitz's case, and her line is even shorter than mine so if she needed 18db or so to achieve max sync, I would think I would need about the same.. Or quite possibly more. That's the theory anyway tongue

And yes I've been told my attenuation will increase by a small amount after the switch

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 11-Mar-13 03:10:05)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 11-Mar-13 08:45:59
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
On a line that is wbc but max profile not seen indications of old style ip progile behaviour

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 11:21:41
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
...her line is even shorter than mine...


Actually her line is possibly the same length or a little longer than yours in terms of attenuation: her downstream attenuation is 7dB and you have seen both 7dB and 6dB reported by your routers.

You obviously want to know why your line is underperforming since the repairs were done on it. As things stand it does seem that because of the previous line fault you were put on some sort of banded ADSL1 profile and the only means of rectifying that is to have the line re-set or to shift to ADSL2+ - which you are very wisely doing smile
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 11-Mar-13 11:54:52
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I was loking at a capped line with 33 dB SNR margin on Friday, so not convinced.

If you look at the bin plots and find half the frequencies aren't in use that would explain the low power. If they're all in use but low downstream power then power cutback is likely.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 12:07:47
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
I was loking at a capped line with 33 dB SNR margin on Friday, so not convinced.

If you look at the bin plots and find half the frequencies aren't in use that would explain the low power. If they're all in use but low downstream power then power cutback is likely.


Does that correlate to reduced power on a very good short line to eliminate crosstalk and where, additionally, downstream SNRM is increased - which we have perhaps established is not applicable to the OP's problem?
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 11-Mar-13 16:58:32
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Does that correlate to reduced power on a very good short line to eliminate crosstalk
perhaps, if that happens in practice. Without knowing the frequencies in use it's hard to judge the downstream power.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 17:29:09
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
So if the OP is still concerned about output power, reduced sync, etc. he could run DMT and look for tone gaps?
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 18:06:45
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
My router isn't compatible with DMT frown Also still waiting for my Ip profile to catch up
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 18:28:28
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
My router isn't compatible with DMT frown


A tg585 v7 is, if you can find one of those kicking about somewhere...
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 19:59:35
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I doubt it...

Something strange is going on now, broadbandspeedchecker.co.uk, iplayer speed test and the BTW speed check are all showing below 1Mbps download speeds, yet speedtest.net is showing 4.27, which it should be

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 11-Mar-13 20:02:36)

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 11-Mar-13 20:00:38
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
So if the OP is still concerned about output power, reduced sync, etc. he could run DMT and look for tone gaps?


yep, grab a router that shows it or one compatible with a software tool that extracts it.

Helpful to understand the low sync if there's a block of frequencies that can't be used.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 20:10:46
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Something strange is going on now, broadbandspeedchecker.co.uk, iplayer speed test and the BTW speed check are all showing below 1Mbps download speeds, yet speedtest.net is showing 4.27, which it should be


A peaktime Tesco/C&W throughput thing - don't worry about it smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 20:14:43
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's OP's hobby!

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 20:16:24
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
LOL! You kidding? Look how long it took OP to find another router.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 20:23:33
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I'm not in the mood. Please go and post on another thread if you've nothing helpful to add to this one. All he was doing was replying to my question...

Seriously though, you have been helpful in earlier posts but now it seems every post you write is taking a shot at me for being curious. This is a broadband forum, I would understand if I was on a football forum asking these kind of questions but it's not.

I'm sorry this post is so negative but XRaySpeX, you've been taking jabs at me for a while now for 'asking too much'. I'm pretty sure if others had a problem with it they would say, and I repeat no one's forcing you to read my every word.

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 11-Mar-13 20:24:27)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Mar-13 20:26:34
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
LOL! You kidding? Look how long it took OP to find another router.


I've got three tg585 v7's, one ex Tiscali and two ex Plusnet, all now updated with generic firmware - I would send him one but taking into account my p&p charge he could alternatively get one for virtually now't off ebay smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 21:04:48
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
I'm pretty sure if others had a problem with it they would say
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/btsupplier/t/421939...

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 21:20:01
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Taking a long time to find a second router is not ignoring your advice though is it, it was simply the fact I had no idea where to get one free
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 22:53:21
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Hmmm BTW reporting 1.86Mbps outside of peak times crazy
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Mar-13 23:03:45
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
What do you mean? BT Speedtester? You're not on BT yet?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 11-Mar-13 23:08:57
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
sorry was a bit ambiguous, I meant the BTW Speed Test is showing low throughput, whereas browsing feels as fast as normal and speedtest.net is showing the right throughput according to my IPP
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 11-Mar-13 23:13:08
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The BT Wholesale speedtest is not renowned for being a good place to do speedtests, really just a place to go to get IP profile info when you have a lazy ISP that does not pass the information to its customers

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Wed 13-Mar-13 20:58:26
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
How does it work sometimes that speed tests show decent download speeds but websites and videos are still loading slowly?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 13-Mar-13 21:00:29
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Various reasons

1. Routing between sites varies
2. Some speedtests report a burst speed only
3. Speedtests often use multiple threads to give the best possible speeds
4. Website itself may be busy
5. Websites are lots of very small elements, so latency plays a critical part
6. DNS lookups may be slow

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 13-Mar-13 22:52:37
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
However good speedtests allow you to check whether you are getting from your ISP more or less what you should be. While all those aspects that Mr Saffron mentions are beyond an ISP's control.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 14-Mar-13 23:07:34
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Right, apart from DNS (some ISPs maintain their own caching DNS servers to speed things up for the EU)

P.S. I find it misleading that ISPs always quote the 'best connection' figure, say you signed up for a 12Mbps service, that 12Mbps is achievable only during the day and late night/early morning.

IMO they should be quoting the average speed you can get in the evenings, as this is when most working people use their broadband, but thats another debate entirely tongue

Edited by matthewcl375 (Thu 14-Mar-13 23:07:54)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 14-Mar-13 23:13:17
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Providers are meant to give a personalised speed estimate at signup if signed up to the Ofcom code of practice and in advertising should show the speed that 10% of users can achieve

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Thu 14-Mar-13 23:28:08
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yes, BT gave me an estimate based on their database which hasn't failed me so far, it predicts 6.5-9Mbps sync atm which is spot on (6.88Mbps) and is predicting 16-19.5 for ADSL2+, but I've heard many say these figures are often an underestimate
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 15-Mar-13 01:22:55
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Right, apart from DNS
Yes, I thought that as I posted but they are easily overcome w/out troubling the ISP.
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
P.S. I find it misleading that ISPs always quote the 'best connection' figure, say you signed up for a 12Mbps service, that 12Mbps is achievable only during the day and late night/early morning.
No, generally your sync speed does not change day-in day-out. You are mixing it up with throughput. Haven't we been here before?

BUT all advertising and your personalised quote at sign-up is in terms of sync speed or "access line speed" as Ofcom calls it.

@MrSaffron:
the Code encourages the ISPs to provide consumers with information on their access line speed *

* access line speed - This refers to the maximum speed of the data connection between the broadband modem and the local exchange or cable head end.
Now it may be that it is this you find misleading but, for the reasons we've just discussed, reliable throughput figures are hard to predict by the very nature of the Net, and Ofcom & ASA have accepted this.
EDIT:
Ofcom is also working hard to find a means by which this information can be supplemented by additional information, including on the average throughput speeds obtained through different ISPs, since these speeds are likely to vary for a number of reasons. If appropriate, the Code will be revised as a result of such further work.


1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 15-Mar-13 01:40:10)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 15-Mar-13 01:27:48
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I believe those estimates you are quoting you obtained from the public BTw Checker.

But, as a matter of interest, were you given a personalised quote at sign-up to BT?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Fri 15-Mar-13 15:14:10
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I was, they gave my dad a quote by email and on their website of 17.5Mbps smile
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Fri 15-Mar-13 17:46:06
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Just got home to see this on the router log:

Mar 15 08:23:00 xDSL linestate up (ITU-T G.992.1; downstream: 7616 kbit/s, upstream: 448 kbit/s; output Power Down: 13.8 dBm, Up: 11.9 dBm; line Attenuation Down: 6.0 dB, Up: 6.0 dB; snr Margin Down: 6.3 dB, Up: 23.0 dB)

Looks like I've hit my max sync with interleaving enabled smile However I am now seeing more FEC 'errors'

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 15-Mar-13 19:23:46)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 15-Mar-13 22:35:07
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The higher your sync, the higher the error rate. Fact.

There's more going down the line every second, therefore more to go wrong. (Even when you are doing nothing there is a continual stream of bits in both directions at the related sync speed).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 15-Mar-13 22:56:05
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Nice! You are finally there and getting what your line deserves smile. It was rather protracted frown.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Fri 15-Mar-13 23:21:32
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yeah! Well right now anyway. Still it shouldn't take a 6db NM to get full sync on my line... But I think this was what I was getting before, unless I had interleaving off.

Hopefully the jump to ADSL2+ will give me a higher sync, even if the NM and output power stay the same, which I don't think they will considering the quality and stability of my line tongue

@Robert So far I've seen 45 FEC Errors since the DLM re synced this morning, compared to other people's stats (@MrSaffron showed me his) it seems like nothing to worry about, is there a level where it does become a problem?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 15-Mar-13 23:35:08)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 15-Mar-13 23:51:54
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
@Robert So far I've seen 45 FEC Errors since the DLM re synced this morning, compared to other people's stats (@MrSaffron showed me his) it seems like nothing to worry about, is there a level where it does become a problem?
A few thousand a minute is a bit unhealthy. A few thousand an hour is not really an issue.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sat 16-Mar-13 00:32:00
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Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Ah, and from what I've heard it doesn't affect bandwidth as much as CPU usage on the client machine
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Sun 17-Mar-13 01:36:07
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I have a question for you folks:

Looking at my stats right now, would you say I would be able to get away with having interleaving switched off, or does the presence of FEC Errors mean it needs to be on?

Uptime: 1 day, 17:13:03
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.1
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 7.616
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 1,99 / 1,99
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 13,9
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 6,1
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / ALCB
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / -
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / -
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / -
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 10 / -
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 104
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): - / 0 / 0

NOTE: the loss of framing, loss of signal and loss of power are from the DLM Re Sync on friday AM
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 17-Mar-13 07:36:40
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
FEC errors are only there because interleaving is on. These are corrected errors, corrected by interleaving.

If on fast path, then it would be uncorrected errors CRC's only.

Clearly you are on a very short line, and 104 FEC errors in over a days up time is very good.

Yes, your line would be fine on fast path, but the difference achieved on IP profile is hardly worth the hassle.

As mentioned earlier, sit tight, wait for your new connection to 21cn kit. My line got 1.8 meg with 26db attenuation, would expect yours to produce around 20/22 meg, maybe even 24 if DLM sees it as stable for long enough.

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 17-Mar-13 08:24:00
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Nah tongue.

I think you mean you got 18Mbps not 1.8Mbps, and I have a comment about the OP's line.

His noise margin at 6dB is highly suspicious as normally on ADSL Max type connections at 7616kbps it should be sky-high. This has been part of the discussion about his line since the start. The change of the exchange connection may fix it though.
Edit - removed garbage posted due to being half asleep.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 17-Mar-13 12:19:04)

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 17-Mar-13 08:36:38
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I think you mean you got 18Mbps not 1.8Mbps

Well look who's had their coffee already this morning ! smile
However his noise margin at 6dB is highly suspicious as normally on ADSL Max type connections at 7616kbps it should be sky-high

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 6,1


Surely a 2nd cup of hot smokin' Joe required ??tongue

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 17-Mar-13 10:27:48
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
I think you mean you got 18Mbps not 1.8Mbps

Well look who's had their coffee already this morning ! smile
However his noise margin at 6dB is highly suspicious as normally on ADSL Max type connections at 7616kbps it should be sky-high

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 6,1


Surely a 2nd cup of hot smokin' Joe required ??tongue
By you, yes smile. Read what it says on the tin that you painted red.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 17-Mar-13 10:59:54
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Remind me, as CBA to read the whole thread, what router is he using ? SNR values reversed ?

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Mar-13 11:42:30
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
would you say I would be able to get away with having interleaving switched off
You won't have the choice; DLM will decide based on stability of line.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 17-Mar-13 11:43:12
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Neither can I, but 6dB figure is the one thats has been steadily lowered by the DLM as expected. It's either Netgear or Speedtouch that report it that way round. Always very confusing frown.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Mar-13 11:46:00
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync? *DELETED*


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by XRaySpeX
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Mar-13 11:51:18
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
TG582n. Not as far as we know. There has been protracted discussion on the extremely low Down NM for such a short line.

EDIT: NMs and their directions have been confirmed by diff router a BBC Home Hub.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 17-Mar-13 11:55:16)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 17-Mar-13 12:16:57
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The attenuation may rise to around 23dB on ADSL2+,
How do you work that out? 9 dB shirley? You looking at wrong stat?
Ohhhhhhhh!

How about the upstream noise margin? Even then I meant 26dB!

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 17-Mar-13 12:42:57
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Isn't a higher sync speed than 7616Kbps possible with interleaving?

I'm sure I got 8064Kbps with interleaving applied (35dB attenuation, 9dB SNRM, 7000Kbps IP Profile) when I was on an ADSL MAX a couple of years ago.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 17-Mar-13 13:12:09
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Sometimes. It seems to be possible with some user-router & DSLAM combinations. TI AR7s seem to manage it quite often.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 17-Mar-13 13:29:04
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Sometimes. It seems to be possible with some user-router & DSLAM combinations. TI AR7s seem to manage it quite often.


Does interleaving depth come into the equation?

I don't much about that nor do I have a router that reports it frown
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sun 17-Mar-13 16:25:08
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Isn't a higher sync speed than 7616Kbps possible with interleaving?


yes, provided both ends support S=1/2 or something with a similar name smile

8128 sync interleaved here at >35 dB signal attenuation

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 17-Mar-13 16:41:00
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Isn't a higher sync speed than 7616Kbps possible with interleaving?


yes, provided both ends support S=1/2 or something with a similar name smile

8128 sync interleaved here at >35 dB signal attenuation


It was a TG585 v7:

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / P

TMMB = Thomson MultiMedia Broadband / P = ?
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 18-Mar-13 18:35:35
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
A bit worried about the old TG582n, it did a 'KERNEL cold restart ' yesterday and one today, is this caused by the line/DSLAM or just a case of a faulty router?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 18-Mar-13 18:49:58
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
A bit worried about the old TG582n, it did a 'KERNEL cold restart ' yesterday and one today, is this caused by the line/DSLAM or just a case of a faulty router?


Might be over-heating - do you have wireless enabled all the time?
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 18-Mar-13 20:45:50
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Yes we do have wifi enabled all the time since everyone here uses laptops/tablets/phones.



As long as it doesn't start restarting every few minutes, I can live with it for another week

I'm more worried tbh about the effect it could have on how long we have to wait for the IPP to go to 6.5Mbps since the change in sync on friday
Standard User matthewcl375
(member) Mon 25-Mar-13 17:13:09
Print Post

Re: Will switching ISP get me a better sync?


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Just for anyone who's still following this thread, my BT Broadband is installed and active, I have created a thread in the BT Broadband section of these forums, link below:

New thread HERE
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