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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 30-Aug-13 22:18:34
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
So uno refer it to TT, and TT tell uno exactly what I m telling you.

Openreach have charged TT and it gets passed on. Openreach are at fault, but no ISP, not even BT, Sky or TT have ever been reported here as getting the charge withdrawn.

You continue to state the world as it should be. I continue to state the world as it is. You aren't going to be able to change it, and neither is the OP by taking your advice.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 51.8/16.8Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User partial
(member) Fri 30-Aug-13 22:25:17
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
This is no concern of the OP.

The OP has been charged a rogue charge to restore service. That is a dispute between the OP and the provider.

My advice to the OP, don't bother with CAB, some bewildered Indian at a third party phone provider or people posting 'tripe' hearsay on internet forums. Go to ADR and get a refund or migrate to a better provider.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(committed) Fri 30-Aug-13 23:25:19
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: Deft] [link to this post]
 
Openreach might do anything. Last year when I complained to BT Retail that my line was not working the BT technician admitted that it had been disconnected.

Michael Chare


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 30-Aug-13 23:28:10
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
You can't go to ADR without a deadlock letter or equivalent.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 51.8/16.8Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User uno
(knowledge is power) Fri 30-Aug-13 23:41:06
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately, what the OP seems to have omitted is that we did investigate this fully, and even Fast Tracked him back on to service because initially we did not know what the situation was and we fully appreciate that even one day without service would be inconvenient. *at cost to US*

If the cease has been generated by the voice provider, which for this customer is the case. The broadband will automatically be removed. This is no different to a PSTN line being ceased on purpose, i.e a house move, or "accidentally" witch something like a name change, which for BT Retail at least, appears to still trigger broadband ceases.

Effectively, the voice provider placed an order. This triggered a PSTN cease. We are charged for said cease and likewise, the customer has to pay us.

Why should the provider have to pay a cease fee for a) an order that was not originated by them and b) because the voice provider placed an order their end? The provider shouldn't. The company that placed the cease should.

Openreach have already confirmed that the order originated from BT Wholesale on a request from the line provider. The customers service with us has no connection to BT Wholesale and likewise, Openreach have charged for the cease correctly.

Yes, the customer should not have to pay any charge because he didn't request it but likewise, we should not have to absorb any more costs for something not of our doing but that of the line provider whom he pays his line rental too. Now, if they are failing to address the matter, that is something for him to take up with them following the correct complaint process of that organisation.

Matt

uno Broadband
t: 0808 221 8642
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Sheffield Speedtest.net Host
Standard User uno
(knowledge is power) Fri 30-Aug-13 23:54:51
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I guess these guys have had the problem too... Noting the cease section.

Matt

uno Broadband
t: 0808 221 8642
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Sheffield Speedtest.net Host
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 31-Aug-13 00:28:38
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
Like I said earlier, this is happening a lot, and the same argument ensues.

However I disagree with your "Openreach have charged for the cease correctly". They have charged according to their system, but as I posted in a recent thread on the same matter, that system is wrong.

If a cease occurs because of a CP order for line changes, then Openreach should charge that CP. That is so blatantly obvious that I'm amazed OfCom allow the ISP to be charged for something that is nothing to do with them.

That wouldn't help with the reconnection issue, but again logic says the company causing the cease should be responsible for the costs of an expedited reinstatement.

Not only that, but whereas it is normal and reasonable for ISP <> Customer contracts to exclude consequential loss, I see no reason why this sort of case should not be open to claims against the culprit for consequential loss.

It's lunacy as it is.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 51.8/16.8Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User uno
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Aug-13 00:49:44
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The problem even when the CP does admit the fault is the amount of time then taken to compensate the customer. I recall one other incident where the user changed their number, would not normally cause a cease but because the CP did a cease and re-provide, it did. Took weeks for the CP to admit and then credit the user.

The underlying problem is the same. End user didn't request a cease, one was triggered. We're charged. Customer billed and if in error, should seek that fee from the CP in question.

Lunacy is probably being too kind wink

Matt

uno Broadband
t: 0808 221 8642
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Sheffield Speedtest.net Host
Standard User Deft
(committed) Sat 31-Aug-13 09:48:50
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
Well I did mention that you had waived all reconnection fees so I don't think I have been particularly misleading or economical with the truth to make Uno look bad here. Also remember that I authorised the rush reconnection assuming that ultimately I was liable for deferred costs - so it wasn't a huge charitable gesture from Uno to begin with.
Ultimately I am still stuck. We have different opinions on this thread about who is responsible for rectifying the costs involved with the incorrect cease (and reconnection) so at least we can all agree to disagree.
I ask BT retail and they say "nothing to do with us, speak to your broadband provider", my broadband provider says "you must pay costs and then seek redress from the voice provider", BT Wholesale and Openreach won't deal with me because I am not a customer of theirs.
Simplistically, why should the customer ever have knowledge of or care about all the 3rd parties involved in provision of voice or broadband. I suspect the general population would assume a problem with the broadband would be down to the broadband provider irrespective of the spiders web in between. I really suspect this is the case legally too - though whether I want to spend the effort testing this legally is another matter! As someone who is moderately technically minded I sort of get the different steps involved and hence why I have attempted on two lengthy occasions to get sense out of BT retail. I can also see their point that in a simple world, the loss of broadband is a broadband provider problem. Frankly I have already gone way over and above what an average customer would (or should) need to do to help get to the bottom of this.
What I still don't understand is that there is no obvious path for Uno to go to Openreach and go; "You know what, we dispute this charge because we believe this cease was incorrectly actioned because of a mix-up / duff info". Otherwise Openreach are untouchable and can always say "just following orders". If that is truly the case then I would have to argue that these kind of situations become an unavoidable cost of business for broadband providers that they have to absorb. You might think that is unfair but how is the consumer meant to lobby for systems change at that kind of level?
I'm certainly not in a position to make that argument to Openreach, and why should I?

Some more background. I live by an exchange that only has one ADSL2+ provider (TalkTalk), so I'm not overwhelmed with options for a >8Mbit service. The reason I went with Uno (as a smaller reseller) rather than directly with TalkTalk is because I assumed for the premium I would get a nimble, responsive and technically capable support. So far that has been the case - I've got more sense out of Matt than you would ever get from typical call centres. But, we are still left with a ridiculous situation where we are both sharing costs.
Now I'm in a fortunate position that in the short term a cease fee is not going to push me into some kind of financial hardship - but there must be situations where a bonus £38.40 charge is really going to cause problems (plus potential reconnection fees).
As a customer is just feels like everyone is shrugging their shoulders and blaming someone else. All I know is it definitely isn't my fault!
Standard User grahammm
(member) Sat 31-Aug-13 10:55:52
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Re: How to best solve the mystery of my ceased broadband


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by uno:
If the cease has been generated by the voice provider, which for this customer is the case. The broadband will automatically be removed. This is no different to a PSTN line being ceased on purpose, i.e a house move, or "accidentally" witch something like a name change, which for BT Retail at least, appears to still trigger broadband cease


Maybe the rules/procedures need to be changed. The ISP is the customer for the broadband connection. So it should be changed so that only the ISP should be able to order a cease of the broadband provision; or at least has to be informed of, and agree to, any action taken by a third party (eg voice provider or end user) which would affect the broadband provision. It is not fair that an ISP (and consequently the end-user) is forced to pay a 'disconnect fee' which has been triggered by a third party and which is not desired by the ISP's customer.

Also maybe they should reduced the number of actions on the voice line which result in a broadband cease.
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