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Standard User parish
(experienced) Mon 30-Sep-13 14:13:14
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No more development of ADSL technology?


[link to this post]
 
Am I correct in thinking that BT is no longer investing in new/improved/updated ADSL technologies now that it's pushing Infinity so hard?

In other words, are those with no prospect of getting fibre anytime soon not going to see any further improvements to speeds of their ADSL connections?

Edited by parish (Mon 30-Sep-13 14:13:27)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 30-Sep-13 14:23:08
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: parish] [link to this post]
 
ADSL has hit its tech Zenith with ADSL2+, the faster variants are VDSL2 which is being deployed via the cabinets.

If you are actually asking will BT Wholesale roll-out ADSL2+ to more exchanges? Probably, but not all 5,600, as the FTTC/P roll-out does not require every exchange to support the backhaul as you can have one larger town serving a dozen smaller exchanges.

TalkTalk has ADSL2+ rolled out already to 96% of UK households, so is a lot larger than the BT Wholesale ADSL2+ market already. In short only 4% are not able to benefit from ADSL2+

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 30-Sep-13 14:26:01
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: parish] [link to this post]
 
BT's investment is into the wholesale GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP platform operated by BT Openreach. BT Infinity is merely the brand of the BT Retail product operated over this system - it sits on top of wholesale products available to (and used by) other ISPs from AAISP to Zen.


In most cases, line length (and, to a lesser extent, condition) sets a ceiling on achievable ADSL2+ performance - the technology is capable of more but the line limits the available speed.

In a minority of cases, VDSL2 (the same technology used for FTTC) could be used at the exchange to provide faster speeds. However, VDSL2 at the exchange is essentially prohibited by the Analogue Network Frequency Plan, because it would cause compatibility issues with ADSL from the exchange.


Research and development is primarily focused on faster speeds from short lines - improved FTTC and pushing fibre even closer to the end user (Fibre To The Distribution Point and FTTP).

If faster ADSL became commercially available, I think it would be hard for BT Wholesale and the LLU ISPs to justify investing it it, considering that ADSL is typically a narrow margin product that many consumers wish to leave behind for faster fibre-based speeds when available. However, I appreciate this commercial and technological reality is not good news for those falling outside the footprint of fibre-based services.

The best hope of faster speeds from ADSL is bonding multiple lines. This is available now if you are prepared to pay for it - I'm fairly sure it's a standard product from AAISP.


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Standard User parish
(experienced) Mon 30-Sep-13 21:27:52
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Thanks chaps. Confirms what I suspected. At ~5km line length (~50dB line attenuation downstream) I'm not ever likely to see any better than my current ~4Mbps on plain old ADSL until/unless FTTP is rolled out around here.
Standard User TDD
(newbie) Fri 21-Feb-14 10:42:51
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: parish] [link to this post]
 
That's rather depressing! We are similarly ~6km from the exchange and not scheduled for fibre upgrade. However SuperFastEssex have assured me that BT is investing in technology and so those (like us) whose Better Broadband is to be upgraded at the end of the project in mid-2016 will benefit from these advances - to quote:
"BT are currently developing new alternative technologies, and the ‘uplift’ premises are positioned towards the end of the project to ensure the best technologies possible are brought to you – and this technology is developing and improving all the time."
I must admit I'm skeptical about this assurance, but can anyone enlighten me as to what technological advances BT is talking about, as ADSL is not being enhanced?
Standard User j3214
(learned) Fri 21-Feb-14 11:57:43
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: TDD] [link to this post]
 
I believe BT has part of the 4G spectrum, which they plan to use for broadband. This could be what they are moving towards in some cases. Other than that "alternative" technology, there can only be FTTC or FTTP (as far as I am concerned).

Also, 2016 is still some time away. Many things could change by then.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 21-Feb-14 12:28:16
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: j3214] [link to this post]
 
4G or white space or smaller VDSL2 hardware e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQwJ73TinOA Yes a marketing type video, but you get a good idea of the size.

Cornwall looked at a 48 line (ECI I think it was) unit that could be pole mounted.

The technical solutions are all there it is just getting the price down to a sensible level.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User j3214
(learned) Fri 21-Feb-14 12:37:29
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
It may be a "marketing type" video, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Are they currently putting this technology to use, or is it in the pipeline? Because I have never actually seen any of these before.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 21-Feb-14 12:52:36
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: j3214] [link to this post]
 
There might be one in Cornwall, but they exist as kit that can be bought and installed.

The reality is that to get value for money from the projects that the easier to solve with current en-masse products are being deployed. Towards the end of the projects the more custom solutions will start to appear,

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User adslmax
(knowledge is power) Fri 21-Feb-14 16:46:55
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
This video above (youtubes) by the girl make me laugh over that firework kits (dangerous to kid life)

plusnetFTTC72 Meg
Standard User parish
(experienced) Sun 23-Feb-14 10:18:05
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: TDD] [link to this post]
 
Interestingly, about 2 months ago my connection went up to almost 6Mbps and the SNR Margin dropped to 1-2dB smile

I thought at first it was a fluke, but it stayed at that until yesterday when it plummeted to 2.8Mpbs and the SNR Margin went to 16-18dB frown

Fingers crossed the latter is a fluke and I'll be back to 5+Mbps soon!
Standard User TDD
(newbie) Wed 14-May-14 20:42:30
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
As you say, interesting and entertaining link. However, reading around on BDUK project sites (eg South Gloucestershire) I see they are describing alternative technologies for the more distant premises as satellite and Broadband Enabling Technology (BET). Do you think that's a likely solution across the country for > 6km non-FTTC premises to get the 2MB USC?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 14-May-14 22:02:39
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: TDD] [link to this post]
 
Bet dead end tech
Sat a good stop gap but limited takeup possible

All depends on goal and willingness to spend e.g satellite is available now if you need a connection anywhere

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User flippery
(committed) Wed 14-May-14 22:37:18
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: TDD] [link to this post]
 
Are we likely to see extra satellite capacity to cope with an influx of satellite users. Also the cost is prohibitive to some.
The Welsh Government change of funding for broadband has not changed the attitude of some Wimax suppliers, such as Exwavia, still wanting the £1000 to connect in existing enclaves.
Whilst 96$ may have access to decent broadband. The other 4% wills always struggle.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 18-May-14 09:20:13
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Bet dead end tech

From the moment it started frown

Standard User godsell4
(newbie) Mon 19-May-14 10:05:15
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Bonded ADSL to the Cabinet, even if a cabinet has to be built to support EO lines, and then VDSL from the Cabinet to the Home at least gets the VDSL connection in place so that when the means to get Fibre or something else to the Cabinet is viable the user can benefit too. Is this ideal no, but neither is BET.

PlusNet BBYW1
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 19-May-14 15:51:08
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: godsell4] [link to this post]
 
The VDSL connection is made and the upstream separated in the FTTC cabinet. Not in the PCP. It needs a DSLAM and line/modem cards.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 58.7/14.6Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 19-May-14 17:16:42
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Aside from the simple fact of how many copper pairs would need to be bonded to get a decent VDSL2 type speed

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User SLAMDUNC
(newbie) Mon 20-Oct-14 12:51:12
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Judging from the Essex Phase2 documentation
http://www.essexinsight.org.uk/Resource.aspx?Resourc...
compared to http://www.superfastessex.org/maps.aspx
it looks as if a lot of areas that were marked as Alternative Technologies are now back to "Basic White" - ie there are now no plans to deploy those technologies after all.
They'll just be left to take their chances with Phase2 funding instead.

The Phase2 maps also show just how much projected commercial coverage from the Initial Modelling Map has been abandoned, as well.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Oct-14 14:21:40
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: SLAMDUNC] [link to this post]
 
Precisely why the EU was slow with State Aid approval, i.e. market led roll-outs were not complete so you could not be 100% sure where they would go.

Now that roll-out is pretty much complete should be easier to figure out the various areas.

The over lapping of all the commercial and gap funded schemes is part of the response to the pressure from campaigners to be seen to be doing something.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User SLAMDUNC
(newbie) Mon 20-Oct-14 15:25:39
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
The sceptic in me does wonder whether "Alternative Technologies" only ever meant "Wait for More Funding", and we got a bit excited for nothing! As projects progress, is there any evidence of alternative technology solutions going in?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Oct-14 15:30:44
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: SLAMDUNC] [link to this post]
 
yes, some projects have already started deploying FTTP in limited quantities.

Expecting fibre to the remote node in North Yorkshire in the next few months, and maybe even commercially in Shoreditch London.

These usually mean pushing fibre closer to properties pushing the cost up and at some point close to more maybe more than FTTP.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User mikejp
(regular) Mon 20-Oct-14 15:45:38
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: parish] [link to this post]
 
parish - not sure which router you are using, but I replaced my 'cheapo' ADSL router with a Billion 8800 (not that pricey on Amazon) and my speeds (ADSL) went up 25% both up and down. Added advantage is it will also work on VDSL.
Standard User SLAMDUNC
(newbie) Mon 20-Oct-14 15:58:26
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
That's good news. In fact I've just this moment received an email from Essex indicating that their Phase2 map is not correct, and the Basic White should not be so - ie that they do expect BT to roll out alternative technologies to fulfil USC as part of Phase1 after all.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Oct-14 16:47:00
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: SLAMDUNC] [link to this post]
 
There was also the news we covered of ADSL2+ from the street cabinets, allowing longer lines to get a benefit in cases where VDSL2 has already run out of steam.

Given ADSL2+ can offer 2 Mbps at around 6km, this should reduce the need for 2 Mbps alternates massively very very few premises are more than 6km from their cabinet. Alas not a launched product but that might change in the next few months.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User SLAMDUNC
(newbie) Mon 20-Oct-14 18:59:19
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yes I saw that - very promising BUT I assume that requires (1) that the exchange is fibre-enabled (ours is not scheduled til start of 2016) and (2) cabinet is fibre-enabled - again, as the cabinet is a good 4km from the exchange that's not a given either.

Seeing as the project is meant to finish by late 2016 Openreach is going to be pretty busy.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Oct-14 20:42:22
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: SLAMDUNC] [link to this post]
 
And projects are extending now into 2017 with higher coverage targets

Many exchanges will never be fibre enabled but cabinets will offer FTTC by linking to a bigger exchange

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User IamQ
(experienced) Tue 21-Oct-14 18:56:08
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
There was also the news we covered of ADSL2+ from the street cabinets, allowing longer lines to get a benefit in cases where VDSL2 has already run out of steam.


Are you aware of any ISP's who can/will order this product yet? I tried with Zen today and they wern't interested to be honest. I will be contacting A&A to see what they can offer.

And do you know what the 'small print' says - as in can we order ADSL2+ ports from the cab as a standard thing or is it only for specific cases where the VDSL won't/don't work due to line length? Do we also know if cab ports are ordered with the same terms and conditions/access as exchange ports?
Standard User Ribble
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 21-Oct-14 19:02:55
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: IamQ] [link to this post]
 
You can't, it's it's in development. No guarantee it will actually become a live product
Standard User IamQ
(experienced) Tue 21-Oct-14 21:33:55
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: Ribble] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ribble:
You can't, it's it's in development. No guarantee it will actually become a live product


I can't? - Are you telling me that as the man in the street or do you have some valid credentials I can validate against? Don't mean to appear rude but I've already spoken to ISP's who believe this is already a product but they don't currently offer it for sale.

Please see SIN 498 (Issue 6) Sept 2014 – Page 34 – http://www.sinet.bt.com/sinet/SINs/pdf/498v6p0.pdf
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 21-Oct-14 21:39:01
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: IamQ] [link to this post]
 
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6654-asdl2-from-s...

I don't believe a lot of what I hear from providers, prefer to read the SINET and STIN paperwork and look for a product appearing in the Openreach price list - which IT MUST to be a live service.

http://www.sinet.bt.com/sinet/SINs/pdf/498v6p0b.pdf

Otherwise nothing concrete price or time scale wise.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User IamQ
(experienced) Tue 21-Oct-14 21:42:58
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks MrSaffron - I'd not even bothered looking in the OR product list yet. I'll keep my eyes open though and see if anything comes along.

It was the SIN which caught my eye when I got the v6 update
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 21-Oct-14 22:03:57
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Andrew, are you aware that ADSL2+ from the cabinet will at this point in time only be available from Huawei cabs? SIN498 Appendix B2. Might be worth an update to the News Article.

EDIT - Was an incorrect reference. Now correct - B2.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.4/14.5Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 21-Oct-14 22:08:34)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 21-Oct-14 22:09:54
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Will wait until more firm commitments to roll-out and pricing are announced before going into the nitty gritty.

For all we know it may be deemed not needed if VDSL2 from remote nodes gets funding either commercially or via gap funding to resolve USC issue areas

News was less of an order now, but here is another option that may be on the USC table.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User SLAMDUNC
(newbie) Tue 18-Nov-14 08:44:53
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Re: No more development of ADSL technology?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Well, Mr Saffron you may be right wrt FTTrN after all!
Our Essex "Alternative Technologies" status on the SuperfastEssex postcode checker has moved to "fibre starting in 2016".
However postcodes between us and our cabinet are not being offered fibre - so perhaps (here's hoping!) we're getting fibre directly, not via the cabinet.
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