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Standard User sthen
(committed) Thu 13-Aug-15 07:41:32
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
ISP congestion has been mentioned, but another thing that could cause this is if you're doing a lot of transfers over the line (could happen unknowingly in some cases) - does your ISP provide any graphs that would allow you to check this out?

It would be worth setting up BQM yourself (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping) to see if there are any times of day where you don't have problems; if it's ISP congestion then it's very unlikely to be consistent across 24 hours.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 14-Aug-15 10:06:26
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
RobertoS,

I took your suggestion about performing an early-morning pair of tests and, low and behold, the latencies dropped right down to the order of 20 - 40 msecs. I therefore put it to the ISP that this must surely be a contention (congestion) problem somewhere in the WB connection, most likely at either 109.109.190.129 or at edge.td.vispa.net.uk.

The explanation from them has changed somewhat. They're saying that this is not the case, as my connection uses neither the WBC nor IP Stream network. This is news to me, as I was always under the impression I was on a BT Wholesale WBC link of some kind. Other than my ADSL connection, I buy no other service from Vispa. But I guess that broadband users generally may never be fully aware of the precise arrangement that their ISP has set up with BT, for certain accounts?

Further, Vispa maintain this is neither congestion nor a hard-and-fast problem with their fibre link. Instead, they say, it's an issue with the interconnect between themselves and their LLU provider. They say it isn't hardware-related, isn't affecting everyone, and so they reckon it's a routing issue between two pipes. They maintain they've proven that the fault doesn't lie in the Vispa network and they're still pursuing it with their LLU providers.

It's been 11 days since I first reported the problem to them and, after getting similar reports from a few other Vispa users around the country, they got down to trying to pinpoint the problem 2 days later. You'd have thought that by now they'd have fixed it, but I guess that this is an especially tricky problem to deal with and I can only wait and see what eventually transpires.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 14-Aug-15 13:11:37
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
Looks like TalkTalk business LLU then.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57584/13846kbps @ 600m. - BQM


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Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 14-Aug-15 15:05:18
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I've absolutely no idea. I wish I knew. I personally would never go within a million miles of any TalkTalk product.

I became a Vispa customer by default, when a few years ago the ISP Skymarket (nothing to do with Sky) sold off various parts of their business and got out of consumer broadband entirely. Existing Skymarket BB users were automatically switched across to Vispa. Vispa's browser service on ADSL has been generally quite good since I've been with them, though their tech support I find a little bit wanting at times. It's only been of late that the ADSL service has been troublesome.

Keep watching this post, as they're claiming to have set a deadline of this weekend to finally fix this problem. And apparently they'll inform me just as soon as that happens.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 18-Aug-15 11:12:46
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
As promised, I thought I'd provide an update on this.

Over the weekend traceroutes from me were still showing a huge delay at 'manchester1.level3' [195.50.121.233], but at only there now. Vispa Support is off-air at weekends, so I therefore sent them an e-mail about it and waited for Monday to come around. So, yesterday morning (Monday) I found that that long delay at Manchester 1 had gone. All hops were now showing a delay of 29 - 31 msecs. Not brilliant, but certainly more acceptable. However, I had my suspicions and even remarked to Vispa Support whether this would last.

This morning (Tues), Vispa Support have declared to all their ADSL subscribers that the problem's been fixed. But I've just done a traceroute and, once again, the delay at that Manchester server/router is 200 - 300 msecs. Since they themselves are located at Manchester I can only summise that that router is either part of their own network or is a critical gateway of some sort. Unsurprisingly, doing a who-is gets no result. Either way, whoever they've assigned to deal with it is either just deliberately applying a temporary solution, or is incapable or unwilling to fix the problem for good.

As for the kind of service I'm on, last week their senior support man told me I was on neither WBMC nor IP Stream. (I'm actually supposed to be on ADSL Max, since my line cannot support anything faster; I could go FTTC but I hope to be moving quite soon to a completely different part of the country, so I've held back from upgrading to FTTC). However, when I consult the control panel of my account at Vispa, what I see under 'LNS' is 'wbc.vispa.net.uk'. Am I right in thinking, though, that WBC is part of a 21CN setup, embracing all of ADSL1, ADSL2, ADSL2+?

More than once now, I've asked them who their 'supplier' is but the silence is deafening. The wordings in their e-mail responses to me suggest that it's BT, ie. BT Wholesale.

I get the distinct feeling that Vispa's just stringing me along over this.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 18-Aug-15 13:30:54
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
If a single hop has bad pings and subsequent hops are ok suggests a switch/router may have high CPU load and is concentrating on routing rather than responding to ping requests. Posting the full trace route is usually best as its easy to miss something that someone else may see.

Level 3 nodes will be part of the provider transit/peering side and it is always possible for the broadband side to be fine and some peering links to run hot, i.e. a lot depends on how a provider sets up its peering and these routes can vary depending on where are heading to on the Internet.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 18-Aug-15 13:54:42
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
Level 3 is one of the main international routing companies in and out of the UK. 195.50.121.233 is listed as belonging to them, as per the tracert.

Probably hosted at this datacentre. (Scroll down and click the Manchester tab).

In your OP the holdup was two hops earlier, at Vispa themselves, as later hops cannot influence preceding ones. But I have another thought.

I expect you can run this tester, ignoring all the red instructions. Just click you've done them. But! Will it let you click the Further Diagnostics at the bottom of the page then a more detailed result after entering your phone number on the next page?

I'm looking for a report like this (with your results in):-
Download speedachieved during the test was - 26.87 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 39.24 Mbps-56.05 Mbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 56.05 Mbps
If you get that, the underlying provider is BT Wholesale. Please post it like I have if you do. Just a copy and paste like that.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57970/13958kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 19-Aug-15 13:21:51
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
RobertoS,

That particular BT speedtester happens to be the very one that Vispa Support recommended I ran some two weeks ago, when the latency problem first arose and I reported it to them. I didn't actually run it two weeks ago, as I already knew at what speed my connection runs (my 8800NL router gives me all the stats) and I'd already run several ping and traceroute tests. So, do you think that that's an indication that the 'provider' is definitely BTWholesale and not some other outfit?

Regardless, I went to the tester today and, using my Windows machine rather than the Mac I have, I did what you suggested, and the basic test did in fact run. However, for some reason it was impossible to do a copy-and-paste of the results. Possibly, this was caused by my edition of Flash being out of date. It was really annoying because I could highlight everything apart from the very results! Unfortunately, I have my Mac set up to not allow Flash for every single website and it requires my approval for each site I visit. However, this mechanism doesn't work on the bt speedtester.

Thus, I had to just jot down the results. There were only three and they were:

Download speed (Mbps): 3.77
Upload speed (Mbps): 0.63
Ping latency (ms): 54.63

I actually ran this twice, after an interval of about a minute. The second latency time was 60.63.

The two speeds are pretty much correct, and the latency time is about twice as long as I've been seeing for most hops these last couple of days.

It accepted my wanting to run Further Tests and it started them, but I then got:

"Test Error. The performance tester is currently unable to run a speed test for your broadband connection. Please try again shortly. However, if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider".

So, I had to abort the Further Tests.

Aside from the bt speedtester, I've run some traceroutes this morning and have got these results:

Traceroute has started…

traceroute: Warning: www.bbc.co.uk has multiple addresses; using 212.58.244.67
traceroute to www.bbc.net.uk (212.58.244.67), 64 hops max, 72 byte packets
1 192.168.1.254 (192.168.1.254) 0.858 ms 0.769 ms 0.786 ms
2 109.109.190.129 (109.109.190.129) 23.003 ms 22.517 ms 22.889 ms
3 edge.td.vispa.net.uk (83.217.160.11) 23.117 ms 23.089 ms 23.107 ms
4 te-8-3-203.car2.manchester1.level3.net (195.50.121.233) 23.583 ms 23.181 ms 23.185 ms
5 ae-122-3508.edge4.london1.level3.net (4.69.166.13) 29.206 ms 29.482 ms 30.327 ms
6 bbc-technol.edge4.london1.level3.net (212.113.14.222) 29.050 ms 29.930 ms 29.511 ms
7 * * *
8 ae0.er01.telhc.bbc.co.uk (132.185.254.109) 30.094 ms 31.910 ms 30.906 ms
9 132.185.255.149 (132.185.255.149) 29.975 ms 30.208 ms 30.262 ms
10 bbc-vip112.telhc.bbc.co.uk (212.58.244.67) 29.680 ms 29.924 ms 29.223 ms

Now, you'll notice that the latency figures are now consistent, albeit that they're quantitively not brilliant. However, since last weekend, when Vispa first claimed to have fixed the problem, the latencies have been very up-and-down (eg. 29msecs for some hops, 600msecs for other hops). When I told Vispa this on Monday again, they'd by then claimed to have fixed the problem. So, they went away and did something else. Not sure what. The next time I did a traceroute I found that the problem area had moved from the edge.td.vispa.net.uk router to the manchester1.level3.net router, the latter now instead giving a figure of around 500msecs.

I got in touch with Vispa yet again and told them that this was getting beyond a joke; the problem wasn't solved; and they'd been messing around for two weeks now, supposedly fixing it. I told them I was exasperated and made noises to the effect that I'd terminate my account with them if this continued. Low and behold, within an hour the figures had changed and were now consistent (looking pretty much the same as in the traceroute above).

Interestingly, when I ran a traceroute last night, one of the hops - it was actually at london1.level3 - was now composed of three routers, each with a latency of around 56 msecs. But, as you can see, that's not now happening. Either Vispa's 'provider' is scurrying around, reallocating resources trying to resolve the problem, or (because of some permanent issue) the routing is automatically adapting and the long latencies are simply being shifted into other routers instead (if you see what I mean).

You being more savvy about routing on the Internet, are you able to conclude anything from this? Do you reckon the provider is BTWholesale? What do you suppose is happening with the long latencies seeming to come and go and to disappear from one router and re-appear instead at another further down the route?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 19-Aug-15 13:37:37
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
The BT Wholesale stuff will NOT run at all if you are not on their network so yes you are BT Wholesale based

ISPs that are not hosting an Akamai node to distribute Windows 10 have seen various problems, some fix it quickly others more slowly. A lot depends on what peering options are available and what provider decides to do.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 19-Aug-15 14:01:21
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Re: What do you make of these ping and traceroute figures?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
From the very outset I made it clear to Vispa Support that there was a possibility that downloads of the new Windows 10 could be causing high latency. I'd by then already read the article about that on this website. Incidentally, the article reckoned that latencies were increasing all day long to the dizzy heights of as much as 30msecs. VS and I very soon concluded that this was not a Windows 10 issue, as it could be seen that in the Manchester area (at that particular time) I was seeing latency of around 500msecs. Indeed, by now any such issue should well have abated.

As you can see, even right now, with all my complaining to VS, I'm averaging around 60msecs latency, and day-by-day it's often rising on some hops to the order of 500 - 600msecs.
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