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Standard User RobertoS
(legend) Thu 21-Oct-10 22:42:05
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: k3nnyc] [link to this post]
 
Contention ratios of 20:1 and 50:1 were removed by BT when they introduced ADSL Max. Business class merely get priority within the BT network now.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User alangl52
(newbie) Mon 08-Nov-10 17:17:48
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: alangl52] [link to this post]
 
I complained to the ISP Association: Demon Customer Care (!) in the UK called me a week later, and got a technician onto the case (still Indian, but he seemed to know what he was doing). We ran the usual tests and he concluded what I have been telling them for 3 months - there's something wrong with their infrastructure. [We did a test to a business login username, which was not noticeably better]. Customer Care are now talking of an upgrade to a Business Account, which would get me the other side of the traffic prioritisation barrier (it's a pity about all you other guys still on HomeOffice); but the tests show that wouldn't fix the problem. I said that I would just like them to provide the service that I'm already paying for....
Standard User burk
(newbie) Tue 09-Nov-10 09:21:24
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: alangl52] [link to this post]
 
Alan,
Go careful at moving across to Business 8000 - it's exactly what I did and it's no better.

This is what I have gleaned so far:

1) There is an issue with the BT IPStream (ADSL MAX) and IPStream Premium (used for the Business 'prioritised' service). It does NOT affect any ADSL2+ C&W LLU customers
2) It's to do with either load balancing on the BT Centrals (the 155Mbps pipes from BT, don't think they use 622Mbps Centrals) OR it's a lack of capacity/headroom on the centrals
3) It's not strictly packet LOSS but more of some packets having latency way outside normal limits (4 or 5 seconds) and then coming back out of sequence. Retries/resends of packets occur, causing more of the same and slowing the link right down.
4) It is not Demon but BT who are looking at resolving this
5) BT have a 50 working hour lead time for each fault, though I have argued that it is the same fault
6) BT works carried out on Sunday 7th at 01:00 made matters worse - confirmed by UK tech support
7) there is no fix time - it will be fixed as and when

Something else you need to know before moving across to the business service is that it IS NOT as advertised a 24/7 dedicated UK support, but in fact only Monday to Friday 9 to 6 support. Out of hours goes to India. Their website claims 24/7 and I am taking this up with several agencies as I believe moving me across to Business 8000 I was mis-sold the product - it costs me significantly more for a service that is absolutely no better than the HomeOffice I was on, though you can actually speak to a UK tech support person within the 9-5, M-F AND you get a faster upline speed (wow!).

I believe that Demon are guilty of downgrading the service for old Homeoffice and Business customers who are stuck on the BT IPStream service because I think (from discussions I've had with various people) that when they migrated vast swathes of customers to the C&W product, they then reduced the amount of Centrals they purchased from BTw - now whether they got the calculations wrong and reduced their Centrals capacity too much or whether they made a commercial decision to reduce the number of Centrals by as much as they thought they could get away with without (in their belief) too much of a noticeable impact on customers, I'm not sure. Anyone like to take a bet? After all, their Indian call centre never tell you the truth and will spin any line to get you off the phone. As I discovered, the Indian call centre had never even logged a fault and it was only after I complained via ISPA that a fault was logged. That was back on 12th October!

You may want to note that the Demon Ticket number for this 'fault' is 363196, and you may want to phone up the UK Business Support line to have a chat with someone quoting this number, and saying you've been recommended to move to the Business service but understand there is a major underlying issue with the ADSLMax service. I am not the only business customer that has complained of this, but I'm told that very few people have actually complained/logged a fault. Presumably because most customers are on HomeOffice and can't get past the Indian call centre to get the issue logged.

If anyone else is suffering the same issues which manifest as a really slow connection and large packet loss ( use the BBC IPlayer Diagnostics as it gives you a good real-world speed test - www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/diagnostics ) then PLEASE ring it in and keep complaining. Only way it will get sorted.

Edited by burk (Tue 09-Nov-10 09:24:09)


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Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Tue 09-Nov-10 09:27:37
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: burk] [link to this post]
 
It's exactly what I did and it's no better


quelle suprise. Sounded like a sales pitch gimmick in the first place. I don't personally believe there's any prioritisation at work but I do believe Demon have congestion problems in office hours.

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Are your kids pirates ? Limewire, Bearshare, Kazaa, BitTorrent, eMule are all tools of the trade.
Standard User burk
(newbie) Tue 09-Nov-10 09:34:49
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Not just office hours - it was grim on Sunday from 4pm until midnight too, and last night, the network didn't 'normalise' until 23:30ish.

I don't think it was strictly 'sales pitch' but a massive lack of understanding of what the issues were - they believed moving me across to IPStream Premium would improve matters without understanding that it was an issue with their Centrals, not congestion/contention on the BT network, which supposedly IPStream Premium should improve on.

But whatever, Demon are being shoddy (that's being polite) and they need to be exposed for what they are....
Standard User alangl52
(newbie) Tue 09-Nov-10 12:49:05
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: burk] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the background Burk: it's very difficult penetrating through the layers of 'customer support' to get at what's really going on. The systems are complex and fault diagnosis and fixing is difficult: having been there I have sympathy with the technicians; and I'm more interested in getting the fault addressed and fixed than in discharging anger. I am sure you are right that the offer to move to a Business account is well meant, but doesn't address the real problem. Having said that, the Indian call centre actively lied to me, claiming that they had escalated the fault when they clearly had not.
I tried using the iPlayer diagnostic as you suggested: surprisingly it shows a streaming speed of 1.3Mbps & Download speed of 2.9Mbps, whereas Thinkbroadband shows (contemporaneously) 210Kbps down and 393Kbps up; and Broadband Choices shows 220Kbps down & 120Kbps up. [The ADSL line speed is 6560/480.] Why would the results be so different?

Looking at the detailed report from my modem, it shows what seems to be a high error rate:-
Uptime: 0 days, 17:24:47
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 6,560
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 10.12 / 24.87
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.0 / 31.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 24.0 / 8.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 4,712 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3,215,245
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 2,079
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 141

I read that as a good s/n ratio, but lots of error seconds and FEC/CRC Errors. They would presumably be corrected by the error detection & correction algorithms, but that would cause delay. Am I reading it right?
Standard User alangl52
(newbie) Tue 09-Nov-10 13:04:35
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: burk] [link to this post]
 
I agree that it's getting worse: the 'out of hours' window when the performance is a bit better has been getting shorter, from my measurements.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Tue 09-Nov-10 14:57:34
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: alangl52] [link to this post]
 
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 4,712 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3,215,245
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 2,079
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 141

so in 17 hours there were 4,712 seconds with at least one error in (well over an hour).

The 3m FEC errors were mainly fixed by the error correction leaving 2,000 CRC errors.

the downstream sync speed isn't fantastic for 31 dB attenuation, what's your wiring like ?

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Are your kids pirates ? Limewire, Bearshare, Kazaa, BitTorrent, eMule are all tools of the trade.
Standard User alangl52
(newbie) Tue 09-Nov-10 15:14:55
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
The home wiring is a bit tree-like, with five devices and a number of empty sockets about the house. The modem usually syncs at 7150 Kbps, but I note that it has reset itself, presumably because it has hit some threshold, presumably the error rate.
Standard User alangl52
(newbie) Tue 09-Nov-10 16:09:38
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Re: Demon prioritising traffic at expense of HomeOffice user


[re: alangl52] [link to this post]
 
Demon Customer Support (in the UK) now tell me that there is indeed a problem in the infrastructure, and that Demon can't fix it until the C&W LLU upgrade is deployed to my exchange. This chimes with what burk says. According to SamKnows.com, O2/BE & TalkTalk are already deployed there....
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