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Standard User mac_d
(learned) Mon 09-May-11 20:44:16
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Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[link to this post]
 
Can anyone advise me on a replacement for my 4-year-old Thomson Speedtouch 585? I'm having some connection woes right now and having established that there doesn't seem to be anything up with the phone line, it *may" be the router.....

I was advised the ST585 was good for my particular connection when I got it (I'm not sure if it's length or quality of line that's the issue, but suffice to say, it's been a great replacement from my previous Netgear router). Is the Thomson Gateway TG585 a suitable replacement, or is there something better?

Spot the difference:
BT daytime / BT evening
Zen daytime / Zen evening
Standard User Oldjim
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 09-May-11 22:10:09
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/dslrouter/f/3997856...
The Billion 7700N is, in my opinion, the one to go for
Standard User MHC
(legend) Mon 09-May-11 23:22:13
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
The TG585 is the sane as the Speedtouch 585 - but may be a later build/variant with newer firmware.

If you have a long or high attenuation line then think about a 2-wire 2700HGV-C - the BT business modem/router.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit


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Standard User Rockh
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 10-May-11 07:48:13
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
It's quite possible that the capacitors in the router are starting to fail, if you can solder they can be replaced.

Otherwise as suggested the 2 wire is a good device.

Dave
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Tue 10-May-11 17:55:38
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I'm not far from the exchange (about 1 mile), so I assume the ST585 was suggested due to poor stability. My router can sometimes go for longish spells without a resync (40+ days) but other times it's every day or two. My connection is usually not too bad (4Mb), the router reports connection as 7,200 kbps, Line profile is currently 6000 Kbps (though both are usually a bit lower) but right now I'm only getting speeds of 2-3Mb.

I don't know what my routers stats say about the line?

Line Attenuation - 17.0 / 28.0
SN Margin - 21.0 / 9.0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): - 0 / 2,118,003
CRC Errors (Up/Down) - 0 / 1,283
HEC Errors (Up/Down): - 0 / 1,211

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. But probably not really worth getting the TG585? I'd be a bit wary of having to change the firmware on the BT router to use it with another ISP, so perhaps the release of Billion 7700N is coming at the right time for me?
Standard User MHC
(legend) Tue 10-May-11 20:02:16
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Changing the firmware is not that difficult and manay many users have done it. You can pick up a 2700 (new) for £10 (if you are lucky).

You should be getting pretty good speeds with those stats - but 2-3Mb on a 6Mb profile is poor and there are significant errors. Something is not right - either modem or line.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Tue 10-May-11 20:56:33
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
You should be getting pretty good speeds with those stats - but 2-3Mb on a 6Mb profile is poor and there are significant errors. Something is not right - either modem or line.

I normally get around 5Mb. My ISP have now established there are no faults showing so reckon it must be the router. So you reckon I should just buy one of the BT business routers off ebay rather than the Billion one Amazon have for release next week?
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Tue 10-May-11 21:10:46
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
In respective to my thread, I would go for the BIllion, the only reason I suggest this is because an expereinced Openreach Engineer (18 years) said that he did a connection provide on a line with 96dB Downstream attenuation, and he said that their equipment wouldn't sync up however this guy had his whole IT Team down and they had a Billion 7800N with them, and it connected up perfectly at half a meg. The Billion 7700N uses the same chipset as the 7800N

Currently at the moment we have a BUsiness HUb and It drops the sync once every day, and the speed can vary as much as 600kbps.

Kind Regards
Edd
Standard User john2007
(legend) Tue 10-May-11 21:15:01
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
The router is syncing OK, it's just that your ISP is not supplying the data as fast as your router can receive. That could be exchange congestion (BT) or your ISP's fault.

How long had the router been up when you got those stats? A few minutes and the errors are high, a few days and they may not be significant.
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Tue 10-May-11 22:44:40
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by john2007:
The router is syncing OK, it's just that your ISP is not supplying the data as fast as your router can receive. That could be exchange congestion (BT) or your ISP's fault.

How long had the router been up when you got those stats? A few minutes and the errors are high, a few days and they may not be significant.

The router had been up for just over a day when I posted those stats. My ISP (Zen) insist they can't see any problem with the line stats, they've checked with BT and say contention isn't the problem either. They've been pretty good anytime I've had a problem previously so I'm inclined to believe them!

The strange thing was that when my speed dropped from around 5Mb to less than 1Mb on Sunday, the connection didn't drop, the router didn't resync (it had been up for 42 days at that point). I was playing a game online at the time and noticed the change immediately. I checked the router, saw the connection hadn't dropped and was still showing 7000kbps, but when I ran the BT speedtest it was only 816 Kbps.

When I phoned Zen's tech support the following afternoon, as soon as they checked the line stats there was a slight improvement although they insisted they didn't do anything. The result of the BT speedtest was then 3061 Kbps (a test download is only showing about half that speed), and that's how it's remained since.

I'm trying to borrow another router to try, and am hoping that will show a difference. If it doesn't. the only other thing I can try is changing the microfilters (though they reckon if that had been the problem it would have shown something in the stats).
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 10-May-11 22:46:08
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Are you connecting wired or wireless to the router? Local interference, particularly on wireless, can arise at any time as people in the neighbourhood get connected or change connection.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User john2007
(legend) Tue 10-May-11 23:04:57
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
I don't think that your router is the problem. That number of errors isn't significant over the course of a day (ignore the FEC error count, they are errors automatically corrected by interleaving and do not harm your throughput).

Your line is under performing and would normally sync at the maximum 7616 kbps (as the line is interleaved) for your attenuation. You seem to suffer from noise and your target SNR margin seems to have been raised to 9 from the default 6dB. That would account for the less than perfect sync.

If you have a test socket within your master BT socket it would be useful to get the stats when the router is plugged in there.
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Wed 11-May-11 20:04:03
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
Looks like you may well be right that there's not a problem with the router John, as when I came home today my connection speed seemed a bit more back to normal (I downloaded a test file from Zen at around 5Mb). It has dropped this evening but isn't significantly slower than what I'm used to.

As per the question RobertoS posed, my PC has a wired connection to the router.

Here's two lots of stats taken from today. The first with the router, phones etc plugged in as normal, the second is the router plugged into the test socket of the master socket.

16:49 11/05/2011
speedtest.net - 5.83 Mb/s

Uptime: - 1 day, 23:51:02
Bandwidth: - 448 / 7,200
Line Attenuation: - 17.0 / 28.0
SN Margin: - 21.0 / 9.0
CRC Errors: - 0 / 1,771
HEC Errors: - 0 / 1,675

19:50 11/05/2011
speedtest.net 4.36 Mb/s

Uptime: - 0 days, 2:53:49
Bandwidth: - 448 / 8,096
Line Attenuation: - 16.5 / 27.0
SN Margin]: - 29.0 / 14.0
CRC Errors: - 0 / 1
HEC Errors: - 0 / 1
Standard User john2007
(legend) Wed 11-May-11 20:24:06
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
To me that suggests you have a problem with your internal wiring. The stats should be the same in and out of the test socket. The likely culprit is a bell wire attached to terminal 3.
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Wed 11-May-11 22:26:22
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
Ok cheers, what can I do about that though? It's not a fault that can be raised with BT, at least not one without significant cost is it? I spoke to someone from BT not that long ago about how much it would cost to get the internal wiring replaced and he said it'd be expensive and not really worth it. My connection was ok then though, I was happy enough with the 4-5Mb I've been getting since switching to Zen. But the 1-2Mb (which it has dropped to again now) is pretty dismal.
Standard User john2007
(legend) Wed 11-May-11 22:50:34
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Most home phone wiring jobs are simple and DIY (quite legally, BT is required up to the master socket only).

Take a photo of the wiring of your master socket and you will get advice. Just post a link to the photo on a site such as imageshack.
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Fri 13-May-11 18:14:42
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
Ok I'lll take a photo of the socket and post it this weekend.

However, I'm more concerned about why my previously fairly stable 4-5Mb connection has suddenly deteriorated? I thought it was perhaps just a blip when a couple of speedtest.net results showed 4Mb (actual downloads still slow though) but it just seems all over the place. Sometimes fine, other times a bit slow, and sometimes very slow. I should also add, I'm connected with a different router so that pretty much rules out it being the router as you previously stated (though I can't see how to get line stats from this router).

I've just ran two tests within the last hour, inbetween times the connection dropped:

5/13/2011 5:10 PM GMT 1.62 Mb/s 0.36 Mb/s 142 ms
5/13/2011 6:04 PM GMT 4.80 Mb/s 0.37 Mb/s 93 ms

I've just downloaded a test file from sourceforge, it downloaded at 5Mb+. I'm now downloading a test file from Zen, and it's a bit slower 3-4Mb. Still a lot faster than it was an hour ago?!?

Edited by mac_d (Fri 13-May-11 18:18:33)

Standard User mac_d
(learned) Mon 16-May-11 20:36:05
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by john2007:
Most home phone wiring jobs are simple and DIY (quite legally, BT is required up to the master socket only).

Take a photo of the wiring of your master socket and you will get advice. Just post a link to the photo on a site such as imageshack.

Not sure if these shots are good enough to see clearly what needs to be seen (been trying to wait for a bright day but not had any!):

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/socket1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/socket2.jpg/
Standard User john2007
(legend) Mon 16-May-11 20:46:11
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Any chance of getting a top-down view of the terminal block on the detachable faceplate? I can't make out where those orange and blue striped wires are connected. Use flash?

Alternatively the terminals should be numbered and you could say which wire is attached where (seem to be white with orange stripes, orange with white stripes, white with blue stripes, blue with white stripes).
Standard User Rockh
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 16-May-11 21:06:56
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Looks ok, only got wires on 2&5. New style Openreach branded master so has the ring wire filtered already.

Dave
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Mon 16-May-11 21:21:29
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
Dammit, I shouldn't have left the router unplugged while I was trying to take photos earlier.... my BRAS profile has dropped from 6000 to 1000. Hopefully it'll sort itself out in the next couple of days, because although my speeds have been up and down llike a yo-yo, the line profile hasn't been affected - up until now.

Anyway, I can't get a decent enough shot, it ends up being too grainy to see the wires clearly enough.

The terminals are numbered 2, 3, 4, 5.

2 - blue with white stripes & orange with white stripes
3 - orange
4 - nothing
5 - white with orange stripes & white with blue stripes
Standard User mac_d
(learned) Mon 16-May-11 21:23:57
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: Rockh] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rockh:
Looks ok, only got wires on 2&5. New style Openreach branded master so has the ring wire filtered already.

Not quite as I've just replied to John007, there's also a wire at 3?

Edited by mac_d (Mon 16-May-11 21:26:57)

Standard User burakkucat
(regular) Mon 16-May-11 21:26:25
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: Rockh] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rockh:
Looks ok, only got wires on 2&5. New style Openreach branded master so has the ring wire filtered already.
Granted, it is the newer OR NTE5/A but I'm not too happy about the extension wiring. Take another look at the second picture and observe:

(1) Two sets of extension cables connected, implying a minimal "star", at the very least.
(2) IDC no. 5 has white/orange from one cable and white/blue from another cable connected.
(3) IDC no. 3 has one of an orange pair connected. (Unable to distinguish if it is o/w or w/o . . .)

A few more pictures would be appropriate. A clear view of the wiring attached to the IDCs of the detachable front plate of the NTE5/A and of each of the extension sockets, please. smile

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User Rockh
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 17-May-11 16:40:38
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
My bad will put specs on next time, there appears to be an O/W in 3.

Dave
Standard User mac_d
(regular) Tue 17-May-11 22:15:57
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
A few more pictures would be appropriate. A clear view of the wiring attached to the IDCs of the detachable front plate of the NTE5/A and of each of the extension sockets, please. smile

I posted yesterday, I can't get a decent enough shot, it ends up being too grainy to see the wires clearly enough. Though I will try again at the weekend. I've also posted what I can see myself:

The terminals are numbered 2, 3, 4, 5.

2 - blue with white stripes & orange with white stripes
3 - orange
4 - nothing
5 - white with orange stripes & white with blue stripes

I'm not sure what you want to see from the extensions? There are three in the house but only one is in use.

However, as I've just posted in the Zen section of the forum, I now have my router connected to the test socket and my line profile is back to normal, but the speed has dropped dramatically again this evening (4.5Mb earlier, down to 1.5Mb now). I thought being connected to the test socket would rule out any interference?
Standard User burakkucat
(regular) Tue 17-May-11 22:45:37
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
The terminals are numbered 2, 3, 4, 5.

2 - blue with white stripes & orange with white stripes
3 - orange
4 - nothing
5 - white with orange stripes & white with blue stripes

I'm not sure what you want to see from the extensions? There are three in the house but only one is in use.
There is something odd with the wiring and, with the lower face plate in place, that odd wiring is connected. Combined with your mention of three extension sockets, we can deduce that you have some form of "star" wiring -- not appropriate for the best broadband performance. So, in short, even though you may only use one extension socket they are all connected.

From what Dave (a.k.a. Rockh) and I can see in picture no. 2, IDC5 has w/o & w/b and IDC3 has o/w. The wiring is more complicated due to the fact that you have two internal cables, that lead off to extension sockets, connected in there.

Looking square-on into the back of the NTE5A, you will see the two white internal cables. For obvious enough reasons, call one the LH and the other the RH cable. What would be very useful to know, is what colours are connected to each IDC from each cable. Another picture or some more words from yourself -- whichever is more convenient -- would be appropriate. As would a picture of the connections in each extension socket (along with where each extension is sited -- e.g. kitchen, bedroom, lounge, etc.)

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 18-May-11 09:26:47
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
It definitely looks as though the wire on T3 is orange with white, although you say it is orange.

That doesn't matter though. In theory it is filtered, but in practice the filter may be faulty. Gently remove it, and make sure it won't connect to anything else when you replace the faceplate. As you have two extensions connected, (the third you mention will be daisy-chained off one of the others), it seems odd that you don't have two on T3. Maybe the second connection there was added at a different time by someone else, but make sure there isn't another loose wire looking dodgy.

Others have asked for more detail. The important thing to establish is that the blue/white and white/blue come from the same extension cable, and the orange/white white/orange from the other. If you have a "blue" and an "orange" type from each cable that is wrong and very bad.

(Edit - typo).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 18-May-11 09:31:03)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 18-May-11 09:29:38
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by burakkucat:
There is something odd with the wiring and, with the lower face plate in place, that odd wiring is connected. Combined with your mention of three extension sockets, we can deduce that you have some form of "star" wiring -- not appropriate for the best broadband performance.
Star wiring is fine. Even mixed star and daisy-chain as we seem to have here is fine.

I agree with you chasing up the rest of the setup though smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User burakkucat
(regular) Wed 18-May-11 18:02:22
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Star wiring is fine. Even mixed star and daisy-chain as we seem to have here is fine.

I agree with you chasing up the rest of the setup though smile.
ACK. wink

We're both perfectionists. But being a scientist, I like to know all the facts before making a decision.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User mac_d
(regular) Wed 18-May-11 21:15:25
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Cheers guys, I will try and take some more detailled photos this weekend, or if not, give more details in response to what you have asked.

I'm not sure if it makes any difference but we originally only had standard sockets installed throughout the house. The cable comes in down through the attic/roof to a box in the hall cupboard and then the 1st socket was in the living room, but it was just a standard socket. Since then each bedroom has had an extension added. About 4 years ago I got BT to install a master socket and it was put in the bedroom where the router is situated.

I do also have a second line installed (from the 56k dial-up days), but it's no longer in use. I have wondered if I'd be as well getting it reactivated and using it instead of the main line! I do remain to be convinced that the wiring is really an issue though.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 18-May-11 23:42:20
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Detach that T3 wire. And please confirm the wire colours as I asked. If you have a blue/white on T2 and an orange/something on T5 coming from the same extension cable you have total garbage.

It has to be the two blueish ones from one cable and the two orangeish ones from the other. You also need to find out which one supplies the third extension and check the same for that third one.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User mac_d
(regular) Sun 22-May-11 16:20:21
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I've had a gentle root around inside the socket but can't see a way of safely removing the wire from T3, so as yet I've not done so - I hope get someone round who is a bit more confident in what they are doing... in the meantime, I've taken better photos as requested. Hope these are more useful.

Master socket:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/socket1q.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/socket2o.jpg/

Socket 1 (in use - and this was the original socket installed in the house):
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/socket1.jpg/

Extensions 2 & 3 both added at later dates, and both are now unused:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/socket2v.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/socket3.jpg/

However, I am getting more and more convinced that, as my speeds generally seem to slow down late in the evening (particularly a Sunday night), but are generally fine in the afternoons, that my main problem is contention at my BT exchange and nothing to do with my end.

I may be able to get a bit better top connection by altering the wiring slightly, but I can't see past being connected to the test socket and still seeing a drop in speed being anything other than an issue outwith my own control. Am I wrong in that assumption, because no one seems to be able to offer an educated opinion on that point?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 22-May-11 17:59:03
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Haven't got time for a full answer at the moment, but yes, slow-downs are probably congestion.

But those photos show your internal wiring is a complete mess and needs serious attention. Nothing that you can't handle yourself if we are gentle with you and you are gentle with one or two wires.

The fact that ext 2 and 3 are not in use doesn't stop their wiring screwing you up, which they are contributing to.

Amongst other things, both seem to be masters. So that's at least three you have. The wiring of ext 3 looks particularly suspect but that's where I need to look closer.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User mac_d
(regular) Wed 25-May-11 17:19:16
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Cheers RobertoS, I managed to get some kind person to come and tidy things up a little for me. The wire removed from T3 of the master socket, the two unused extensions removed altogether (plus an additional one I'd forgotten all about). The router has just been connected for 30 mins or so and I'll need to wait a few days to see how the line settles down, but with everything connected as normal I *think* the stats from my router look a little better now - more similar to what they were when connected to the test socket. Am I right?

Bandwidth: 448 / 8,096
Attenuation: 16.5 / 27.0
SN Margin: 26.0 / 14.6
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 25-May-11 18:33:40
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Re: Replacement for Thomson Speedtouch 585?


[re: mac_d] [link to this post]
 
Much better smile.

As you say, see how things go now, with your existing router. In a few days your throughput should improve a bit as well.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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