Advice for desperate n00b please? Re: noisey unstable line

Hi everyone, could really do with some help please.

Basically i think my line is very poor, at the best, as my connection is very unstable and disconnects at least 5 times a night. As it gets dark the Noise Margin falls all over the place and often drops below zero.

I was just wondering what difference the router makes to this and if it is worth spending the money on a different router or if it wont make any difference?

I have an old branded talktalk router that used to do the job quite nicely i thought until i was transferred to adsl2 [connection went to hell] and i have tried a cheapish belkin one i got but that disconnected even more. I don't really want to buy a new more expensive one unless there is a chance it will actually make any difference.


If there is a possibility a new router could make a difference can people recommend a router for a noisey and very unstable connection please? I would like to spend as little as possible but i am willing to spend more if it is necessary.


I used to think routers only made so much of a difference up to a certain point [a bit like hmdi cables] but my experience with the belkin has shown me how ignorant that viewpoint may have been.

Cheers

Edited by deleted (Wed 03-Aug-11 00:00:06)

If you could post your line stats it will help. Info if you don't know how.

Edited by Rockh (Wed 03-Aug-11 18:04:42)

In reply to a post by Disc0nnected:

Hi everyone, could really do with some help please.

Basically i think my line is very poor, at the best, as my connection is very unstable and disconnects at least 5 times a night. As it gets dark the Noise Margin falls all over the place and often drops below zero.

I was just wondering what difference the router makes to this and if it is worth spending the money on a different router or if it wont make any difference?

If there is a possibility a new router could make a difference can people recommend a router for a noisey and very unstable connection please? I would like to spend as little as possible but i am willing to spend more if it is necessary.

I used to think routers only made so much of a difference up to a certain point [a bit like hmdi cables] but my experience with the belkin has shown me how ignorant that viewpoint may have been.

Cheers

Hi, the BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV router has a reputation for very good performance on long lines, you buy one on ebay.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/2wire_2700_HGV.htm

http://business.bt.com/broadband-and-internet/intern...

You buy one on ebay http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570...

Easy to unlock http://bt2700hgv.tripod.com/ir1002700HGV.htm

Routers run software so are very different to a dumb cable.

How good the software is written and the ability of the hardware to carry out commands promptly is a big factor.

You may be on ADSL2 but with a lot of hardware you can force the connection mode back to ADSL.
The fact the connection is worse at night, and on ADSL2 suggests it may be an internal wiring issue, have you removed the ring wire, unused extensions, and tested for a day or so at the master sockets test socket?

As E7er says - a 2wire 2700HGV from ebay is a worthwhile investment.

Then with a little planning you work out when to sync the modem for best results. Just after dawn or dusk.

For example - I have recently installed one on a friends very long noisy line. His daily resyncs have gone - maybe just one a week now and te line has improved from around 700kb to near 1Mb - all from a 2700HGV.

As Rockh said. Post your stats http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php

Thanks for the replies.

I can't select my router on that site. It's an old Talk Talk branded one, i think a Philips SNA5630/05 or SNK5630NS/05. It seemed to work fine before, until the day i was transfered to adsl2 [21cn].

Here are some stats:

Up stream: 960 Kbps
Down stream: 4544 Kbps

Noise Margin - Upstream: 11dB Downstream: 11dB

Attenuation - Upstream: 34 dB Downstream 63dB


Target snr of 12 dB

According to the samknows website i am only aprox 1.220km from the exchange.

In the day i hover around 12dB with the odd drop but then as it starts to get later in the evening it all goes to hell and starts going all over the place with disconnections as it goes below 0.



I don't really know what to do to be honest. My isp Technical support told me: "I can see that from the connection history, the connection has been unstable since the migration to
21cn. Tests on this line show that there are many errors on the downstream and that this might be due to the line length and quality."
but then told me:
"BT have carried out diagnostics and found no fault on their network in relation to the problem reported"

This would indicate to me that if i do have an engineer come out they will end up charging me. I guess i may eventually have no choice but to have an engineer come out if i want a usable connection again but for now i want to make sure the router isn't a possible factor.

I was tempted to order a Billion 7800N out of desperation last night but apart from the cost i don't even know if it would even stop the disconnections so thanks for the suggestion of the Bt thing.

I should add:

I have removed the ring wire as instructed by isp and i am currently in the test socket just to make sure again but i don't think it seems to make any difference.

Thanks for help

Edited by deleted (Wed 03-Aug-11 17:07:38)

63dB attenuation (i.e. 5 to 6km of actual phone cable) and 4.5Meg sync is exceptionally good.

The router may be a factor, trying different hardware is one of the things that is worth doing. 2Wire 2700's I think can be found cheaper.

A charge from the engineer visit should only be raised (if its a Openreach one) if they find the issue with your own wiring in the property.

The 12dB swing in SNR is probably the factor. That is way above what you and I know is "normal" - it suggests something is creating a lot of noise on the line - street lights, display lights or one of many other things.

A 2700 will - as I said before be a good investment as they can hold down to 0dB and below which may not cure teh drops but could reduce them


To Disc0nnected
You need to get a copy of Router Stats Lite and then set it up to monitor the sync speed and SNR - use 3000 points/graph and 1 minute updates which will be a two day plot. Post a link to the image and we can then see what is happening to your SNR and when and what teh sync speed does too. You may need to get a 2700 first if your existing router cannot be accessed.

I should of said that the Belkin router actually gave different Attenuation figures than the TalkTalk/philips one does. They were approx half ie
Attenuation - Upstream: ~ 15 dB Downstream ~ 30dB

So one is giving wrong reading and maybe it is the TalkTalk one.


The way techincal support worded it to me made it sound like the engineer only doesn't charge if they find a problem with the Bt Network ie didn't mention whether or not they would check my wiring or if that was a factor in deciding if they charged or not. Again this is another thing putting me off having an engineer come round, i guess i need to clarify this as i was hoping it would be like you said.


It's interesting you should mention the street lights because i remember reading the other day something about am radio waves possibly interfering with adsl as it got darker but i have just checked and there is actually a street light right next to the telephone pole my wire is connected to. It's literally only 1-2 metres away, aiming away from pole, although i presume the acutal light beem itself may be irrelevant. I'm getting so frustrated with these disconnections now that i seriously just complicated sabotaging it to see what would happen [apart from me being arrested].

Is adsl2 [21cn] more susceptible to interference does anyone know?

Do you think Bt consider interference from street lights as something wrong with their network and whether that would show up if they came to test the line in the daytime. I bet they would say nothing is wrong.


I have routersats lite running now and i will try to get a picture up, as of 9pm tonight it's been hovering around 12dB but i suspect the fun is just about to start.

I think it makes sense to try the 2700 first then rather than spend so much on something like the Billion 7800N and have it make no difference. If the 2700 doesn't make any difference do you think that would mean it's unlikely that i am going to be able to reduce the disconnections just by getting a better router.

[i wonder if anyone has ever moved just to get a usuable internet connection]

In reply to a post by Disc0nnected:

[i wonder if anyone has ever moved just to get a usuable internet connection]

Depends where the problem actually is mate.

Some street lights make a buzzing noise....

The higher frequencies used by ADSL2+ (which is different to 21CN) are more prone to interference, hence why some modems let you force one of three modes ADSL, ADSL2 and ADSL2+

As an openreach engineer i would say your problem is more likely to be an hr diss fault in the network rather than the router . If all was well up until recently then something has changed , proberly the line. The snr will move around anyway at night due to electrical interference but if line has hr diss fault then as wires get damp snr will be all over the place. highly unlikley to be street lamp. Is the line crackling when router in sync? or do you get a faint hissing on phone even with filter in place if so then deffinatley hr diss (high resistance) fault.

If the 2700 makes no difference then there is only a small chance another router (modem) might.

Yes you are right, pick up of radio waves (Medium wave mainly) is one of the causes of reduction in SNR as the propagation is greater at night and there is greater reflection from te atmosphere and every little bit causes noise. Add in a street light - that will have several high frequency oscillators or the illuminating arc that will also cause local RFI problems. You will soon see the 12dB change - typically people will see from 3 dB to 7 dB and not the 12 dB you are seeing.

Get a first snapshot from RSL up this evening and a wider picture later.

Thanks for the info people.

My connection has actually been much better last few days. I have inadvertently found out through having to leave RouterStats running, that my connection diconnects less when i don't turn the router off each night for some reason, may just be coincedental though.


Yeah i don't think it is just the street light because there isn't a sudden jump when the turn off and on rather more of a gradual progression.


I meant to try and get these up a bit earlier but here are some of the RouterStats graphs [hopefully]:

4,8,11 - 6,8,11 RouterStats graphs

My last discconection was at 8pm tonight [graphs end before then]

My line seems to be more stable/less noisy when i resync at a lower speed, is there any way to do this myself?


Do you know which routers allow you force back to adsl please? I quite like having double the upload though, but it may be good to have that as an option if all else fails.

Cheers.

In reply to a post by Disc0nnected:

Thanks for the info people.

My connection has actually been much better last few days. I have inadvertently found out through having to leave RouterStats running, that my connection diconnects less when i don't turn the router off each night for some reason

Because you're connecting at night when the noise is highest, which gives you more noise margin but lower speed..

If you switch off at night and reconnect in the morning, then noise is lowest so you'll get a higher speed but less noise margin. As the noise increases you will run out of margin and you'll get a disconnection.

That is horrible ...

It is normal to see small variations minute by minute of a dB or so ... but the way your margin is up and down overnight is a real problem. Something somewhere is causing the problems - street lights, florescent strip lights at home, low voltage lights with transformers, the neighbours, a noisy television ... It is going to be hard but you need to try and find out what is causing te issues. Can you turn EVERYTHING off in the house and just leave the PC and modem/router running? Then turn items on one by one, turning them off after - freexer, fridge, lights, central heating &c. Or if the noise is still there with everything off, the cause coudl be external.

If you think that is bad have a look whats happened since yesterday, noise is the same as usual but it's gone back to it's usual disconnecting ways now, i should of kept my mouth shut:

RouterSats graphs 6aug 19.00 - 7aug 19.30


- Yeah i know now, seems i need to do manual reconnections then as noise gets worse so i can sync at a lower speed rather than waiting for the inevitable drop, not sure if that will work though. I guess there is no way to choose what speed you sync at, that probably sounds rightly stupid to most people on here lol.

- Yeah i will try to do that, i have a feeling it's something outside as the noise is so bad at night when i don't think much is on usually except fridge etc. I will try turning it off and everything else that i can and see if it does anything.

-Looking forward to when it starts to get darker earlier.

Cheers.

This is my old ADSL2+ plot: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/Polchraine/TBB/...

You can see it varies by the minute, but only by less than 1dB ... There is only 4dB between the two extremes - middle of the day and very early morning. Somewhere you definitely have a noise source that is giving problems.

Bit of an update.

I bought a BT 2Wire 2700HGV and i have been running it for the last week or so now with some strange results.

Firstly i think it might not be working properly with RouterStats because i am getting totally different kinds of readings now. Actually something is definitely not right as i remember i first synced at 4500 [kbps] which eventually went down to just above 4000 after a few disconnections but as i scroll back on routerstats now its just showing a constant line of 4000.

Here are few graphs anyway.

I think the noise margin hasn't changed from the original readings.

Basically i connected at 4500 then disconnected almost straight away then syncedat about ~4300 then disconnected a few more times over the following days until syncing at 4000 which it seems to have settld at now. I have left it on each night and it hasn't disconnected for nearly 4 days now i think, which must be a record for me.

BUT

During this time according to routerstats my noise margin has been at an almost solid 16 [dB] during the day since the last sync, only falling to 13/14 at night with much less jumping than before.

Also when it has been disconnecting, as you can see in the graphs, it has been disconnecting when the noise margin was around 16 whereas before it would start falling to around 0 and below before it disconnected. So something weird is going on with either the router or routerstas.

And my internet now seems to be lagging, specifically whilst browsing, Basically pages are now taking longer to load than before with occasional pauses that didn't use to be there and also far more "this page cannot be displayed" etc. Some pages are not loading properly either now with bits of information missing. I have noticed that when i watch video on one computer the internet becomes very slow on other ones, borderline unusable.


Using this guide i have a 2009 made in China version ["Least desirable model. GUI is slow and some bugs too. So best avoided imho"] so maybe this is responsible for these weird observations.

I stupidly bought another one without checking which version it was so i am now building up a collection of these now lol.

Does anyone know if what i have discribed could be a result of having this version of the router?

Cheers.

Post deleted by billford

You can make the same point with more acceptable language...

Yes you are right, pick up of radio waves (Medium wave mainly) is one of the causes of reduction in SNR as the propagation is greater at night and there is greater reflection from te atmosphere and every little bit causes noise.

Agree.