|
|
|
If anyone uses a Fritzbox 7390 on their FTTC/VDSL2 connection I was wondering if anyone has tried changing the maximum performance/maximum stability settings to see if they work, or whether DLM just plain enforces it. I know this is impossible to do on the HG612 as it does no change when testing it.
My main reason for asking is because I would prefer to increase the SNRM as opposed to being lumped with a rather large interleaving depth. Higher SNRM should mean less CRC errors and DLM as a result reduces my interleaving depth, well that's the idea anyway. So before I buy a Fritz or Draytek I'd like to find out if anyone can elaborate whether either does what I'm asking despite DLM being in place?
I know the Fritz parameters work on an Australian ISP, as I came across the forum thread about it and how people were increasing their SNRM above what the DLM set them to by default.
Many thanks.
|
|
|
Have you tried starting at max stability, then monitoring the line stats, then adjusting the settings?
Per these screenshots:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/hardware/reviews/73-fr...
|
|
|
Have you tried starting at max stability, then monitoring the line stats, then adjusting the settings?
Per these screenshots:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/hardware/reviews/73-fr...
Thanks, seeing the pictures of the interface was useful, as I only saw the max stability/max performance page, however I don't believe you read my post entirely  .
I quote myself saying in the first message: "So before I buy a Fritz or Draytek I'd like to find out if anyone can elaborate whether either does what I'm asking despite DLM being in place?". So I don't currently own one, but would like to know if anyone else has tried before I buy one. I might just buy a Fritz anyway because I would find the VOIP functionality very useful.
|
|
Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.
|
|
|
Heh!
From the article I linked to:
In actual use we found the 7390 even with its settings at the default Maximum Performance to be a stable router, coping with fluctuations in noise margin, without undue stress.
Also, near the conclusion:
For those worrying about how the router performs on ADSL2+ and the noise margin drop once the sun sets, the line used for testing suffers from variable amounts of noise, but the 7390 would hold onto the line for a week or more, when other routers would drop it once or twice a night.
Backatcha!
In fairness though, it doesn't mention tweaking, and as far as I know was not tested on a fibre line.
Edited by camieabz (Sun 09-Sep-12 21:39:09)
|
|
|
Review was getting pretty long, and didn't have time to play with it on FTTC, as meant travelling.
On WBC ADSL2+ Max Performance seemed to equal the MSAN settings as decided by WBC DLM. Moving towards the left simply increased the target noise margin, and other factors, i.e. slowing down/increasing latency
Suspect that what will be optimal will vary from line to line, and will depend on whether ECI or Huawei VDSL2
|
|
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
|
|
|
Review was getting pretty long, and didn't have time to play with it on FTTC, as meant travelling.
On WBC ADSL2+ Max Performance seemed to equal the MSAN settings as decided by WBC DLM. Moving towards the left simply increased the target noise margin, and other factors, i.e. slowing down/increasing latency
Suspect that what will be optimal will vary from line to line, and will depend on whether ECI or Huawei VDSL2
If it does allow me to increase the noise margin target I'm all for that. I may just buy one tomorrow anyway as (if it works properly that is, heard some rumors that it does ghost calls and caller ID is tempremental) VOIP with my BT DECT phones would be very handy.
|
|
|
Just a follow up to say to everyone who's interested that you can bump the SNRM target up on the Line Settings tab with a BT Infinity connection. I've currently set my SNRM target on the downstream to 9dB successfully  .
|
|
|
But any way to reduce it? My target SNR is set to 12dB thanks to DLM and drops my line speed from 3Mbps down to about 1.8Mbps 
I was perfectly happy with the stability at 6dB (hours/days between drops). My ISP resets it on request, but it quickly creeps-up again.
I know there is no option in the GUI, but perhaps the command-line? I must plug-in a phone so I can activate it
-==-
DougM
|
|
|
|
I've heard you can use FB Editor to modify the configuration manually, this allows you to go beyond the limited range of the sliders in the line options. I don't know however if you can go below the default SNRM target.
|
|
|
Yep, I also found this link to edit the file directly using the command-line:
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=90&topi...
I'll have to give-it-a-go
-==-
DougM
|
|
|
Let me/us know how you get on .
|
|
|
I was perfectly happy with the stability at 6dB (hours/days between drops). My ISP resets it on request, but it quickly creeps-up again.
I know there is no option in the GUI, but perhaps the command-line? I must plug-in a phone so I can activate it
Give the faults team a call and explain the problem of the DLM changing the SNR. They might be able to help out with that.
|
|
|
|
Well, setting up the public static IP's wasn't as bad as I thought. All I had to do was set the router to use the final public IP in my range that was given to me, disable NAT and then setup my devices to use a public IP in the usable range along with the gateway IP being my router public IP. No messing around with static routing was necessary.
|
|
|
I successfully reduced my SNR margin by 6dB. I didn't enable telnet, instead I used FBEditor to download, edit and upload the configuration.
http://www.ip-phone-forum.de/showthread.php?t=79513
I changed the downstream margin offset to -60 from 0:
DownstreamMarginOffset = -60;
The GUI still reports the SNR margin as 12dB but my downstream sync has jumped back up to 3Mbps.
-==-
DougM
|
|
|
Interesting. I haven't tried telnet yet, though am reluctant as I've heard it invalidates the warranty. Though on the other hand I've heard that you can use a firmware recovery tool which will remove knowledge of telnet access from the router? Telnet may also give you the correct SNR on the connection.
EDIT: The configuration file has some interesting options, very advanced options. For example:
MaxDownstreamRate = 0;
MaxUpstreamRate = 0;
I imagine with those you could specify a sync rate limit, so if I did 60000 for downstream then whenever I sync I would never go beyond 60000 even if the DSLAM allowed me to?
Edited by Ixel (Tue 11-Sep-12 22:31:01)
|
|
|
I have an odd problem that I've noticed this morning. When I use my phone now I notice a 3dB~ SNR drop, once I've hung up it goes back up by the amount that was lost. My only guess is that it's the special Y cable supplied with the Fritzbox 7390 . Any ideas? This only happens in the receive direction, not the send direction.
Edited by Ixel (Wed 12-Sep-12 10:19:23)
|
|
|
I have an odd problem that I've noticed this morning. When I use my phone now I notice a 3dB~ SNR drop, once I've hung up it goes back up by the amount that was lost. My only guess is that it's the special Y cable supplied with the Fritzbox 7390 . Any ideas? This only happens in the receive direction, not the send direction. Do you have a micro-filter you could plug into the phone side, so in effect you would double the filtering?
|
|
|
Good suggestion but I am already double filtering. Something I do as standard . I have taken two pictures of the SNR graph, one with phone in use and one without phone in use.
Phone not in use (SNR increase/normal):
http://i.imgur.com/5mEi4.png
Phone in use (SNR drop/not normal):
http://i.imgur.com/pIXKt.png
|
|
|
I cannot see a difference, sure you did not mess the image upload up?
|
|
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
|
|
|
|
If you open them in two separate tabs and swap between them, you will see the yellow area rise and fall a little.
|
|
|
There's a small difference all across the SNR graph (yellow, upper one of the two). You'll notice it better if you overlay them (for example, by opening the two images in two seperate tabs on the web browser and then switching between them).
EDIT: BatBoy beat me to the reply lol.
Edited by Ixel (Wed 12-Sep-12 11:44:10)
|
|
|
Just a follow up to say to everyone who's interested that you can bump the SNRM target up on the Line Settings tab with a BT Infinity connection. I've currently set my SNRM target on the downstream to 9dB successfully . That seems very odd. Particularly as altering the noise margin by telnetting into the Openreach modem does not work we are accustumed to it doing on ADSLx connections. (I've had a few goes at it and the sync speeds did not respond in the way expected).
Additionally, the Openreach SIN defining the GEA system, and recently modified to specify CP-provided equipment for the coming wires-only installation, has also had the following added:- Note : It is the DLM system that sets the line profile, and this should not be interfered with by CPs/users setting rates, SNR margins etc. at the Modem. I imagine what you are seeing is just the HH3 setting getting through to the BT Wholesale DLM, which has no effect in this respect on the Openreach one.
Edit - typos.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Edited by RobertoS (Wed 12-Sep-12 11:48:11)
|
|
|
Good suggestion but I am already double filtering. In that case, you could try yet another filter in addition, or purchase a new Y-cable...
|
|
|
Okay can see it now, no change in the bit loading, so what effect does this actually have on the connection?
|
|
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
|
|
|
Additionally, the Openreach SIN defining the GEA system, and recently modified to specify CP-provided equipment for the coming wires-only installation, has also had the following added:-Note : It is the DLM system that sets the line profile, and this should not be interfered with by CPs/users setting rates, SNR margins etc. at the Modem. I imagine what you are seeing is just the HH3 setting getting through to the BT Wholesale DLM, which has no effect in this respect on the Openreach one.
I'm a tad lost there. I thought FTTC uses the Openreach DLM, not Wholesale? Also I notice a difference in downstream sync when adjusting the downstream target SNRM on the Fritzbox. Over the next week or so I will post a series of screenshots confirming different syncs according to different targets, I don't want to do this 'hurridly' because it may throw DLM into a fit of its own.
Good suggestion but I am already double filtering. In that case, you could try yet another filter in addition, or purchase a new Y-cable...
Will do, triple filtering. Will post results shortly. As for a new Y-cable, I presume I'd need to contact AVM.
Okay can see it now, no change in the bit loading, so what effect does this actually have on the connection?
The only noticeable effect so far is that my SNR decreases temporarily whilst using the phone.
Regarding my problem with the SNR dropping 3dB on using the phone, then increasing by 3dB when not using the phone, could it be that my Annex setting is wrong? I believe I should be using Annex B since the HG612 reported it as that before, where Fritz is currently on A.
|
|
|
Annex A and Annex Usually refer to DSL over POTS and DSL over ISDN.
So Annex A is usually the right one for UK. Not had a HG612 to play with or a VDSL2 line to ensure its not just a GUI bug
|
|
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
|
|
|
My HG612 reports Annex B Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
There are several Y-cables advertised : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Y-CABLE-FOR-FRITZBOX-VOIP-1-...
|
|
|
I'm a tad lost there. I thought FTTC uses the Openreach DLM, not Wholesale? You're right, but not entirely so.
The connection itself is managed by the OR DLM in the cabinet DSLAM. The BT Wholesale WBC DLM comes into play after the GEA handover at the exchange. (So doesn't affect Sky or TT FTTC connections). Also I notice a difference in downstream sync when adjusting the downstream target SNRM on the Fritzbox. I'm about to play ....
1) I had been away a few days with everything turned off. Connected at 22:08 last night. (The first two speeds are the actual, the second two the attainable).
10/09/2012 22:08 55918 13961 6.3 6.2 13.1 6.7 56764 13976 G.992.3_Annex_K_PTM)
2) Resync just now, no setting specified by me.
12/09/2012 13:36 56797 14253 6.3 6.2 13.2 6.7 57824 14241
3) xdslcmd configure --snr 50
12/09/2012 13:40 56789 14275 6.3 6.1 13.1 6.8 57816 14275
?
That's the sort of result I got before. Small movement of both up and down, in the wrong direction. Hence my statement earlier. But I accept it's odd, and there may be something being rejected by the DLM. What range of setting have you tried? Maybe 50% is outside some range.
I wonder .... In theory --snr 200 should give around 9dB.
4) xdslcmd configure --snr 200
12/09/2012 13:47 56618 14118 6.3 6.1 13.1 6.8 57644 14547
5) Back to safety, I hope ...
xdslcmd configure
12/09/2012 13:50 56634 14081 6.3 6.1 13.1 6.8 57492 14093
Drat!
My first default one there was nice.
Edit - typos.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Edited by RobertoS (Wed 12-Sep-12 13:58:56)
|
|
|
DO NOT BUY THAT LEAD. It is not a UK spec lead, as does not have a telephone connector on the black phone part.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/images/reviews/fritzbo... shows the UK lead, coiled up.
|
|
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
|
|
|
Update.
Triple filtering, no difference. I have increased my SNRM target by 1dB further and have dropped from 60184 downstream to 58568 downstream (respectively 9dB SNR to 10dB SNR). The SNR graph (yellow one) has slightly raised. I still believe that --snr <n> on the HG612 is for ADSLx type connections and wasn't modified in such a way to support the same adjustment on VDSLx type connections. On the default SNRM target (6dB) I originally got around 66000~ to 67000~ sync downstream. Either my speed tests and information from the Fritzbox are bugged or it's actually doing the SNRM target offsets.
Oh, interestingly when I pick the phone up my SNR drops to around 4-5dB, so perhaps the cabinet is trying to apply that but when the phone is not in use it's unable to? Or perhaps just coincidence that it's trying to reach 6dB~ when the phone is in use.
Annex A works, B doesn't.
Edited by Ixel (Wed 12-Sep-12 14:06:49)
|
|
|
As I do when not sure, have gone away and checked
Should be using Annex B for the UK if
Annex A specifies
bandplans for the North American region and enables
VDSL2 to be deployed with traditional POTS telephony
or in an all-digital mode (similar to Annex J in ADSL2).
Annex B specifies bandplans for Europe and enables
VDSL2 deployment with underlying POTS and ISDN
services. Annex C allows VDSL2 to coexist with TCMISDN
services, found primarily in Japan. is correct.
|
|
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
|
|
|
Interesting, yes I did a bit of Googling myself and thought surely Annex B since it's the standard for Europe, and HG612 reports Annex B. But to my amazement it didn't sync until I switched it back to Annex A  .
|
|
|
I see Hama say it needs this adapter, but it looks a bit German http://www.hama.de/00040639/hama-adapter-for-fritzbo...
|
|
|
You could have a point that the straight snr command isn't the one to use on VDSL2, as I have no doubt you are succeeding in what you say.
Re the "Annex", xdslcmd info --stats shows the same as BatBoy posted in, but look at my tweaking results (1). In a bit I'll look into the command that obtains that.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
|
|
|
Hmm # xdslcmd --version
xdslcmd version 1.0
DSL PHY: AnnexA version - A2pv6C030b.d22g
******* Pass *********
|
|
|
I see.
Yes your tweaking results above appear to show minimal difference each time, where as the Fritz seems to be actually making considerably larger adjustments when I adjust the SNRM target (which I'd expect), as well as reducing the CRC errors I used to get thanks to the increased SNRM target . Interesting though. I still can't get my head round why the SNR is dropping when I use the phone, but it's not causing me any serious problems when I use the phone (e.g. no loss of sync, or CRC errors rapidly incoming). I plan to scrap BT anytime soon in favor for a cheaper VOIP alternative and just use the BT landline for incoming calls, emergency calls and calls to BT.
EDIT: That's interesting BatBoy, so where on earth is the 'xdslcmd info ...blahblah...' getting B from? :x
Edited by Ixel (Wed 12-Sep-12 15:12:21)
|
|
|
That plug looks too short for a UK phone socket
|
|
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
|
|
|
Just a follow up, though playing around with the settings has cost me a DLM profile drop temporarily, it was worth it to see what worked and what didn't.
From my testing so far, I've found:
- MaxDownstreamRate, MaxUpstreamRate and/or setting the SNRM target offset for downstream all work.
- DSINP doesn't appear to work. Modifying the port profile (unless I'm not doing it right) doesn't appear to do anything either. Either I'm not doing it right or these are enforced remotely.
I'm going to leave my connection running for as long as possible now, in hope that DLM will trigger a disconnection within 7 days to relieve the error correction and such that's in place currently. My CRC errors have definitely decreased by bumping up the SNR for both downstream and upstream (I did upstream by specifying MaxUpstreamRate to be 15000, in other words limit the upstream sync to 15,000 kilobits). I've also capped the downstream rate, for now (until DLM hopefully relieves error correction stuff) to 50,000 kilobits (using MaxDownstreamRate 50000).
My SNR recently, before specifying an upstream sync rate limit, was 6dB~ at the full 20000. It's now 9dB~ at 14992, with downstream around 12dB at 50000. I confirmed if these limits appeared to be working by doing a few cycles of speedtest.net on a reliable server (I've found the one in London by Structured Communications (something like that anyway) works reliably for me), and I'm pleased to say that these limits appear to work. I'd be quite happy living with 40-50/15-20 as opposed to 65-70/20 that I was getting after people were starting to be setup on Infinity on my cabinet, if I can get an interleaving depth of 1. Until people started being setup after me (I was first apparently) I was getting 80/20 with an attainable rate in the mid 90's, upload was around 30's.
Something of interesting to some perhaps, which I can't seem to get any of it to work:
| Text | 1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
2223
2425
2627
2829
3031
3233
3435
3637
3839
4041
4243
| cpe> 21
Enter port profile number: 0
=====================
PORT PROFILE MENU =====================
1) Min. Noise Margin
2) Interleaved Percentage
3) Upstream Max. Interleave Delay
4) Downstream Max. Interleave Delay
5) Configure RFI Band
6) Set Port Options
7) Tone Disable Configuration
8) IFE II Configuration
9) Network Configuration
27) xDSL Line Profile
51) Disable Microcut
60) Retransmission Configuration
97) Copy values from another profile
98) Restore profile to default values
Select the Parameter type from the list
Press Enter to exit menu without modifications: 3
Current Upstream Max. Interleave Delay= 63.0 ms Enter the new value (in units of 0.5 ms) :1.0
Writing the data into File |
Also when DLM dropped my profile last in the early hours the Fritz!Box remained connected with a SNR of -5dB, forcing me to unplug it and plug it back in once I woke up.
Edited by Ixel (Tue 18-Sep-12 16:07:27)
|
|
|
A follow up with some initial proof.
My speeds are capped on the FB7390 at 50000 / 10500, by using MaxDownstreamRate and MaxUpstreamRate in /var/flash/ar7.cfg.
Check out the following images, it should be sufficient for initial proof. I'm still waiting for DLM to reduce my INP, interleaving and such, unless of course the downside of what I'm doing is that it causes DLM to freeze temporarily, though I doubt it. Ideally I believe I just need to maintain a connnection for a long while, rather than keep disconnecting every 2-3 days like I am in hope to see a pending DLM change. I can certainly say that as of today I will not be touching the connection for at least 1-2 weeks, hoping by then that DLM will see my CRC errors have reduced considerably on both downstream and upstream.
EDIT: http://i.imgur.com/q0Rv1.png
http://i.imgur.com/M29v4.png
http://speedtest.net/result/2193158671.png
The statistics shown on my FB7390 Plotter program are fetched from the web interface (which uses an XML file that contains the data, and Ajax to fetch and refresh it on the webpage), and so are the same details seen on the web interface. If you doubt that the Plotter screenshot is real then I will be happy to submit a screenshot of the webpage concerned. Last but not least, the attainable rate fetched (for the downstream) seems to be the attainable rate that I'd get at 6dB with the current interleaving and INP configuration, not the attainable rate without that (like the HG612 displays).
Any thoughts or.. ?
Edited by Ixel (Fri 21-Sep-12 23:03:13)
|
|
|
You know your email address is showing there?
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 56.0/13.9Mbps @ 600m.
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
|
|
|
|
Valid point, I'll redo the image and submit it in a moment. I have posted on another forum though, I'm not truly bothered as I have multiple identities (email addresses).
|
Pages in this thread: 
Print Thread
